Pieps Beacons under fire

Just got an email from Pieps... seems all beacons are being replaced regardless.

“For users of the DSP Sport and DSP Pro beacons, we will undertake a thorough inspection of your beacon and, regardless of what we conclude, we will send you a free replacement from our current beacon family”


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Well that finally went the right way!


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Originally Posted by SkiLyft

Just got an email from Pieps... seems all beacons are being replaced regardless.

“For users of the DSP Sport and DSP Pro beacons, we will undertake a thorough inspection of your beacon and, regardless of what we conclude, we will send you a free replacement from our current beacon family”


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I thought that was just for beacons still under warranty......

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Originally Posted by 3PinGrin

I thought that was just for beacons still under warranty......

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Mine is not, purchased from a buddy 2 years ago. At the time was 2ish years old.


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Originally Posted by jono

Not an owner just an interested engineer, but this definitely has me thinking twice about BD now. To me the sketchiest part of the response is their repeated mention of having tested other companies' products as part of their investigation. That's something you might do before designing a competing product. At this point it's just marketing FUD and has no bearing on whether their own product has a problem. Advertising that fact looks like a significant dysfunction--like they're letting sales or marketing run the response. Jax's posts seem to add a layer. (I'm not trying to convince anyone else, just saying that's how the optics come off to me--I'd love to be wrong.)

As an engineer, that interlock is objectively a design compromise: the "living hinge" approach of flexing the plastic is a probable cost-saver that definitely reduces reliability. A beam like that has to be designed with a limited flex so it doesn't break (apparently it still breaks) which means the tolerances on the interlock itself have to be very small. So a slight amount of wear, variation in the parts, even temperature change (or any combination) might allow a malfunction. The video showing .005" between locked and unlocked is imperfect, but probably close enough (I agree with Abraham's comment in the other thread but expect the effect to be minimal--0.010" travel would still be disturbingly small). Compare this design with one that has, say, 0.1" of travel on the release button and the difference in reliability is undeniable.

There could (I would say should) be an industry standard that requires a mechanical interlock which (a) travels at least 2 mm (less is difficult to perceive as a user, which introduces issues with human factors) and does not release until at least 1 mm into the travel (maybe 1.5, I'm just throwing out a guess). And (b) contains a separate detent mechanism so that unlocking the interlock does not release the detent and (c) the detent must provide adequate force to re-center the sliding switch and re-latch the interlock if left in an intermediate position just beyond the edge of the interlock's range.

Sorry if that reads like engineer-speak, I'm assuming if you're still reading the half-baked version would be worse.

Lack of (b) and (c) appears to be the cause of the issue in ISBD's video: if the interlock can be pressed and the slightest movement of the sliding switch will hold it down, then the switch can stick in that "teased" position where it's unlocked even though it hasn't moved much yet. Then it's literally 50/50 as to whether the next force applied to the slider moves it out of Send. A seperate detent mechanism which applies enough return force to re-center the slider would prevent that by re-latching the interlock after any given bump on his ribs.

Sounds like the industry has no such standards for themselves right now. But I just tried the equivalent move on my Pulse. Its separate detent force is (just) enough to ensure that the sliding switch returns to a locked position if it is teased just past the edge of the locked position in either direction. I'd like the detent to re-center from a further out position, but a detent mechanism can't completely eliminate the possibility of teasing. At least making the switch unstable at the edge of the locked range prevents an inadvertent unlock from becoming permanent. The switch design seems to have gotten significant attention in the Barryvox design.

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Oh wow are you an engineer?

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Originally Posted by SkiLyft

Mine is not, purchased from a buddy 2 years ago. At the time was 2ish years old.


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Interesting. Several have received emails saying there was a cost to upgrade if not under warranty. Do you know if they changed that policy?

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Originally Posted by kalisto

if you bought yours < 5 years ago. you can still sign up on the pieps site for the extended warranty. it'll still expire 5 years from purchase date, but for those of you who are between 2-5 years.

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Thanks kalisto, I just did this as well, thought it didn't apply because purchased in BD outlet sale, but it worked! Now under warranty through next year, so presumably will get a free replacement. Definitely seems liked mixed messages being sent out to consumers regarding warranty/non-warranty replacement vs discount on new though (based on forum posts).

I just got this email back from them

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Thank you for your email. As a company of skiers, snowboarders, spilt boarders, ice climbers, and alpinists, we share your passion for the backcountry. Your safety is our top priority, and we are committed to addressing any concerns you may have regarding your DSP Pro or DSP Sport transceiver.



We handle every Pieps Beacon inquiry on an individual basis. For Pieps North America, please file a warranty claim here so we can process your claim as quickly as possible. For Pieps Europe support, please email support@pieps.com. If you have any questions in the meantime, please call our product specialists directly at 1-800-775-5552.



For more than 45 years, Pieps has been the worldwide technology leader in avalanche transceivers. Our mission is to bring you state-of-the-art equipment and peace of mind. Thank you for taking us with you on your backcountry adventures and for your continued support.



-Pieps Customer Service Team



North America Pieps warranty link: https://warranty.bdel.com/CreateCase/StepOne



Pieps Europe warranty email address: support@pieps.com

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Originally Posted by SkiLyft

Mine is not, purchased from a buddy 2 years ago. At the time was 2ish years old.

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but note that the words "DSP Sport and DSP Pro" may be differentiated from just "DSP" [re: older units]

Talk about inconsistent messaging, jesus.

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

but note that the words "DSP Sport and DSP Pro" may be differentiated from just "DSP" [re: older units]

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My understanding is that this doesn't apply to the prior models with the grey slider switch like on the DSP or DSP tour.

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Originally Posted by SkiLyft

Just got an email from Pieps... seems all beacons are being replaced regardless.

“For users of the DSP Sport and DSP Pro beacons, we will undertake a thorough inspection of your beacon and, regardless of what we conclude, we will send you a free replacement from our current beacon family”


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When did you file your claim? In curious what the turn around time is for getting a response? Hoping to get a new beacon before I start skiing this year....

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Originally Posted by durangobrad

When did you file your claim? In curious what the turn around time is for getting a response? Hoping to get a new beacon before I start skiing this year....

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BD emailed a shipping label within a couple days of my service request.

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Originally Posted by durangobrad

When did you file your claim? In curious what the turn around time is for getting a response? Hoping to get a new beacon before I start skiing this year....

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I asked about how long it would take to get a new beacon in my hands. They said "days or weeks, not months."

Apparently I have to pay still. Inconsistent as fuck, regardless of 5 year warranty apparently.

It took a day and a half from the time I submitted my warrenty claim to the time they sent me the email response and a fedex ground prepaid label. Dropped it with Fedex last Thursday and tracking shows it will be delivered next Monday.
I am feeling it will be turned around quickly. Hopefully I will know more next week.

I would assume they want to get as many of these out of the field as possible...

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Originally Posted by phatboy64

It took a day and a half from the time I submitted my warrenty claim to the time they sent me the email response and a fedex ground prepaid label. Dropped it with Fedex last Thursday and tracking shows it will be delivered next Monday.
I am feeling it will be turned around quickly. Hopefully I will know more next week.

I would assume they want to get as many of these out of the field as possible...

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Was yours still within the 2 year warranty or older than that?

Older then 2 years but I am pretty sure I did the extended thing when new.

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Originally Posted by phatboy64

Older then 2 years but I am pretty sure I did the extended thing when new.

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Thanks, mine is under extended warranty but there have been mixed messages on that front. This is the email I received.

Users with Beacons purchased over two years ago are eligible to buy-up to another beacon model at the below rates:
Pieps Powder BT: $100.00 USD
Pieps Micro BT or Micro Sensor: $125.00 USD
Pieps Pro BT: $150.00 USD
Should you choose to send your beacon in and upgrade we will not be returning the DSP.

Regards,



Black Diamond Service Center

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Originally Posted by phatboy64

Older then 2 years but I am pretty sure I did the extended thing when new.

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Download your extended warranty certificate and send it in with your beacon...

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Originally Posted by beeeom

Download your extended warranty certificate and send it in with your beacon...

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That's the plan, mailing with beacon today.

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Any industry folks have perspective on why this isn't a recall?

I'd also love to know why some people seem to be getting their beacons replaced for free and others seem to have to pay to upgrade, and it doesn't seem to be the 2 year thing either.

that too

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

Any industry folks have perspective on why this isn't a recall?

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Recall would admit fault. They'd open themselves up for all kinds of lawsuits -- particularly in the hanging lake incident.

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Originally Posted by Danno

I'd also love to know why some people seem to be getting their beacons replaced for free and others seem to have to pay to upgrade, and it doesn't seem to be the 2 year thing either.

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Yes, it's been pretty confusing with no consistency. If it's under extended warranty having to pay is lame, that should be a free replacement in my mind no matter if it's relatively new or 4 years old. Or at the very least state 2 year warranty only applies, and then stick to it to avoid confusion. That's still not right in my mind, but at least it would be consistent. This seems a pretty wishy washy approach.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Recall would admit fault. They'd open themselves up for all kinds of lawsuits -- particularly in the hanging lake incident.

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isnt a recall to demonstrate proactive safety measures to get ahead of potential lawsuits? & to remove unsafe product from the market?

also, isn't a voluntary buyback also an admission of fault?

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

isnt a recall to demonstrate proactive safety measures to get ahead of potential lawsuits? & to remove unsafe product from the market?

also, isn't a voluntary buyback also an admission of fault?

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IANALawyer. Just my guess.

They aren't offering a "buyback" due to a "design flaw" -- it's an "upgrade" for user "confidence". The language they have used is all exceptionally careful.

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Originally Posted by 3PinGrin

Thanks, mine is under extended warranty but there have been mixed messages on that front. This is the email I received.

Users with Beacons purchased over two years ago are eligible to buy-up to another beacon model at the below rates:
Pieps Powder BT: $100.00 USD
Pieps Micro BT or Micro Sensor: $125.00 USD
Pieps Pro BT: $150.00 USD
Should you choose to send your beacon in and upgrade we will not be returning the DSP.

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This seems fair.

Just wanted to share that across the pond in the UK, Pieps Austria have gotten back to me.

They offered an upgrade to the Powder BT for €100 ($120) for my out of warranty (6 years old) DSP sport. I never mentioned I was out of warranty - though my email is registered on their site with the device (hard to believe they looked it up).

No offer of a pre-paid shipping label, nor any mention of being able to pay more for the pro-unit or the micro-BT. I've gone back to them to ask about it - to be fair €100 for a 6 year old unit isn't too bad - would not be a happy camper if I was in the extended warranty period and told I had to pay for the replacement/upgrade unit.

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Originally Posted by hafjell

This seems fair.

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I'm not necessarily complaining about that as an option (well, ok, I did complain a little), mainly that some people have >2 year old beacons being replaced for free and others with beacons of the same vintage still under warranty having to pay. (based on forum posts that I have seen)

I got off the phone w/ BD
I was told that if it is still under 5yr warranty that they will honor that
but she was cagey on specific offers and said that each case is an individual assessment of the submitted beacon

2017 letter to company asks for recall

https://www.adventure-journal.com/20...-malfunctions/

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

I got off the phone w/ BD
I was told that if it is still under 5yr warranty that they will honor that
but she was cagey on specific offers and said that each case is an individual assessment of the submitted beacon

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That's the part that makes no sense. If it was a "the switch plastic is cracked = free replacement" "under warranty = replacement" or something similar, that would set a baseline at least. The willy nilly decision of who deserves a replacement vs who doesn't seems to be all over the place.

It wouldn’t surprise me if corporate was still trying to think of how to game this.

In a way BD seems to be coasting on good will left over from the old Metcalf/Chouinard days.

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Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

It wouldn’t surprise me if corporate was still trying to think of how to game this.

In a way BD seems to be coasting on good will left over from the old Metcalf/Chouinard days.

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I don't doubt that's what's going on, and I'm sure there are numerous staff involved scurrying to figure out how to approach this. They don't want to become the next North Face.

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Originally Posted by 3PinGrin

That's the part that makes no sense. If it was a "the switch plastic is cracked = free replacement" "under warranty = replacement" or something similar, that would set a baseline at least. The willy nilly decision of who deserves a replacement vs who doesn't seems to be all over the place.

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at some point, i think they have to acknowledge that even if a switch hasn't cracked to date, the switches still have that capacity to do so at the exact time they are most needed, based on the available info to date...despite their statement in these replies that they've "tested internally, via 3rd party and tested comparable product in the market" (or whatever that phrase was)

that's the ogre hanging over these things with no recall -- they are eminently aware of failures at this point. the whole replacement policy via upgrade or warranty replacement itself acknowledges that

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

at some point, i think they have to acknowledge that even if a switch hasn't cracked to date, the switches still have that capacity to do so based on the available info to date...despite their statement in these replies that they've "tested internally, via 3rd party and tested comparable product in the market" (or whatever that phrase was)

that's the ogre hanging over these things with no recall -- they are eminently aware of failures at this point. the whole replacement policy via upgrade or warranty replacement itself acknowledges that

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There is a one word answer, whether we like it or not.

attorneys (no offense intended Danno!)

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

at some point, i think they have to acknowledge that even if a switch hasn't cracked to date, the switches still have that capacity to do so at the exact time they are most needed, based on the available info to date...despite their statement in these replies that they've "tested internally, via 3rd party and tested comparable product in the market" (or whatever that phrase was)

that's the ogre hanging over these things with no recall -- they are eminently aware of failures at this point. the whole replacement policy via upgrade or warranty replacement itself acknowledges that

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiB8GVMNJkE

^It must not be adding up to enough yet.

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Originally Posted by SkiLyft

Mine is not, purchased from a buddy 2 years ago. At the time was 2ish years old.

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When you submit your claim to BD did you give them the original purchase date of the beacon or the date you bought it from your buddy? Did you show them a copy of the receipt?