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This goes without saying but thinner bases/edges more susceptible to rock damage. Easier to compress a thinn edge.
Also not to be overlooked is the damping effect of thicker plastic.
Not to mention less stone grinds.
Put the thicker bases/edges back on JLev.
I gotta admit, other than this drama, I'm intrigued by the 191 size
Dayummm bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
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I know. It's an addiction. 2 seasons. 200 days. Eastern Sierra BC objectives like Bloody MTN and Mt Johnson N Coulior last spring and tagged Mt. Shasta summit after the first year skiing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuse
Newb progression like no other. Didn't even grow up skiing. We don't get snow in the Souf!
Keep it up!
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Same thoughts. I was sooo stoked for the Ren which is why I'm so pissed about the bastard production.Quote:
Originally Posted by tuco
Has anyone skied the Hoji ? I’m thinking I’ll just exchange the rens for a pair of hojis. I was relying on a nice stiffer ski because I was getting the shorter length.
Not the new one, but older heavier Hojis rocked! I have only skied the 187, I wanna try the 19X version but havent gotten around to it
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At least the new ones don’t have the lighter base and edge. They are stiffer then the new renegades. I think a 187 would be good for touring. Suppose to weigh in at 1900 g. Even heavier then the new Rens! I’m sure the new rens would be ok in storm day tree skiing. But tech fast and open bowl skiing. I want some backbone!Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuse
1875g sounds silly light for Renegades, I'm on the 2016 black/blue 186cm @ 2275g which was the last version before they dropped some weight down to 2100ish I believe. I have the 2013 Hojis (Pilsner can, 2200g weight) with Radical ST 1.0 for touring.
Would be curious to try the new ones but not sure they will work for me as a Whistler resort/slack pow ski @ 215lbs. I'm sure they will be great in pow especially tree skiing but variable/hard snow in the resort or ski out from slackcountry will not be great at my size.
I have Guardians on my 186's now so it's a stupid heavy setup. My plan was to wait for Shifts to be field proven by consumers and then buy two pairs + 2019 Rens & Hojis for a two ski quiver and be done with ski gear purchases for 5 years. 2019 Renegades + Shifts would be lighter than my Hoji + Radicals haha.
Gotta say, I've got no dog in this fight, still rocking OG 186 Renegades. But I'm glad 4FRNT stepped up and commented on this thread, it would've been a big negative if they didn't based on the precedent they've set in the past.
I still think the 15% decrease in stiffness over what Hoji intended (I think I've got that right), is a damn shame, but the company is responding to it well in my opinion. However, it is pretty telling that they intend to go back to a stiffer layup for next year. The Bastard Renegade (TM) will definitely be a unique item on the used market.
Props jlev for a well thought out, honest, and professional response.
The og rens 196cm are pretty much a one shot thoroughbred fir me at 5'9" 175#. They are simply the best high speed get retarded steep pow ski ever. On everything else they destroy me.
I'm intrigued to try the 191cm bastard rens. Not sure that is even possible. Will likely wait to get the 2020 rens. 5cm less length, lighter, and only slightly less stiff would hopefully make for a great pow inbounds ski that won't wreck me through the crud and bumops back to the uplift.
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Hats off to jlev for coming on here and explaining everything. I'm sure 4frnt will take a significant hit on this mistake. But by coming on here and being honest. They've restored my faith in the brand. I've got a ridiculously huge quiver. But it's dominated by 4frnt. 193, 186 ehp. 194,184 devestator. 196, 186 rens. 184 raven. Keep letting your athletes design skis and keep coming on here and interacting with skiers who are passionate in a direct manner. Please bring back demos at Alta (I really want to ski the map) and the ehp (maybe with metal)!
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Hojis are good. I ski the heavy and light ones back to back, and almost exclusively. Heavy are a little burlier but i prefer the light (red). They feel like a great balance of weight to stiffness/feel. Lower swing weight. Tip profile is improved.Quote:
Originally Posted by powderslave
They would be the worlds best ski if they had less RC. Which would make it more of an ehp, and would be my preference. I get that that’s not the point of the ski and accept its personality as is.
I use them in the alps, as they rule on bad or funky 3d snow. The extra rc does have them skiing powder very well for its width.
Hoji was use for the ski shots in this, deep pow:
https://youtu.be/c_NzA9Qhz2U
Jumps - not deep to ice... to grass:
https://youtu.be/fAnMGekuOFE
Steep Alpine Lines:
https://youtu.be/IcXzxQrX7mM
Light Hojis, Touring with airs:
https://youtu.be/y0VexB5JrjY
Sure sounds to me like a financial decision was made to save a few bucks in base and edge material and that has resulted in an unexpectedly compromised product that is now being pushed out on previously fanatical consumers but runs the risk diluting the brand
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcpnz
I bet that just how the skis are 'magically' softer, their profit margins 'magically' rose when they went to a cheaper material to ship/manufacture.
I'd agree this was probably a financial decision gone wrong. But I give them props for coming out and admitting their error. And they're offering a different ski to anyone who's already paid. While I'm sure a lot of those people are bummed. I doubt there are many other companies willing to admit their mistake and offer up a decent solution. Get your money back or another pair of skis. Devestators and hoji are both good, but different skis. I'm bummed as I thought the 191 could be a great ski. Maybe it will be. Chances are they'll be cheap 2nd hand. And next year they could be awesome. I will always appreciate 4frnt allowing their athletes to design skis. I hope they continue that and allow good skis to stay good skis. Not sure how the white room is functioning these days. But if 4frnt was willing to do some limited run vintage skis. Well that'd be really sweet.
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What they NEED TO DO IS THIS: How about offer custom ski options on the greatest hits like the Renegade and Hoji. Hell, even have different years as options. Lots of smaller ski companies allow for custom ski builds using the dimensions of their great designs.
Prior Boards and Skis do that in Whistler.
Praxis does that in Tahoe. (Ordered an UL Carbon Protest 192 to replace the duties of the now cancelled Bastard Renegade)
And I'm sure there are many more out there. Satisfy the crowds to stay in business, of course. But also listen to the die hard crowd. The die hard crowd for any brand are the ones who get more buyers to take interest.
200 lifetime days guy checking in, sick!
Sounds like a pretty good alternative to the praxis protest for the ever-elusive" what ski should I bring to Japan".
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Wow you guys are a bunch of drama queens. Remember when they softened the 14-15 cochise and bodacious by 15%? Blister reviewers claimed not to feel any difference if I recall.
I get the apprehension because it is such a legendary ski, but please, go ski it first before flaming the company.
Can we internet personalities not try to rewrite proven business models, please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
I've never skied a Protest, but it's high on my list. Furthermore, I have two forest skiers here who disliked the stiffness of the Ren. While I tend to haul ass, most don't. This might make those two other kids at my hill amped.Quote:
Originally Posted by markcjr
And if they're actually talented on their gear... maybe they don't need stiff planks over-compensating for them like I do. /Just sayin'...
Just a public reminder that this ski hasn't been skied by any voices in this thread.
All that said, I never imagined that there was any way necessary to make the Ren an easier ski to ski. I'm happy to have my mind blown, though!
My 191 will be here Thursday and I will try to mount and ski next weekend. I skied 186 then 196 then went back to 186. Bought 191 thinking it would be the best of both worlds. Now I’m getting an OG one today to double down. So I think my review may help hopefully.
Also got an email from 4frnt saying hoji or devastator is $499 and includes pivot 12. Maybe sell pivot 12’s for $150 ish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDhAEmODyzw&app=desktop&persist_app=1Quote:
Originally Posted by mall walker
I think most of the concern here is that the lighter weight and softer flex is because of a fuck up. If they had tested it and Hoji plus the other pros signed off on it, then I think there’d be a lot of trust in the ski.
Sooo a Mexican guy who has been skiing for all of two years knows more about making skis than Hoji or JLev even though he has never actually skied on the skis in question. Ha ha ha God I love the internet.
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My 2019 renegades have been sitting in my living room for a week. I have bindings for them, but every day I look at them and hand flex them and I say no way. So soft. I don’t feel like wasting time and effort to mount them. They are the softest ski in my house. I’ve never had a ski last this long without getting mounted.
I’m sure they would be good for deep powder tree skiing only. But even then a rockered ski doesn’t need to be soft especially at 184. I think you would get thrown in the back seat a bunch when things get spicy.
The big mistake was changing the ski, without testing , going straight to production. It’s like changing your reknown recipe at a fine dining restaurant last minute and not even tasting it before sending it to the table.
They did come on here and give us the low down. But they kind of had too.
Vibes for JLev. Seriously. That 200 day wonder is really going all in on making it clear he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kanone
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Agreed What they said was hoji signed off then we changed it. Lighter is not always bad as I found out with other brands. So we wait and seeQuote:
Originally Posted by Supermoon
I have some renegades that I love in 186cm for touring. I was planning on buying the longer length this year for a resort powder setup. I started this thread because I was curious about changes to the skis for the upcoming year and excited to get a set.
When I saw that they had moved production I decided to not buy a pair. This wouldn’t have happened if the skis were produced in Salt Lake. Not saying you can’t make great skis elsewhere but the althlete involvement in 4frnt and the hands on nature of the production always seemed special.
The skis didn’t turn out like they wanted. They might be fine for some people but given how obsessively Hoji works on his great and given that skis are all about incremental improvements; I’m not interested in the skis.
I bought a set of moments and set of priors instead.
Y'all are a bunch of 4FRNT fan boi's. "For the love of all that is holy, how could you question the powers at be at 4FRNT? That is blasphemous! It will upset the sheeople herd and create havoc. Reform, infadel!"Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kanone
The above quote is the sub-text I hear out of your post, Bro.
Let me give you a bit of advice, independent thinking can be scary, but it is a mental state that is more true to oneself. If my thinking scares you and rattles the piece of your ego that you've attached to 4FRNT, you should really work on finding a sturdier set of values for your ego. That is unless you like to feel butthurt on a consistent basis.
LOL. You fan boi's are soft. LOL
In all seriousness, I do know more than Hoji and JLev about skis that I WANT to ski. That is my decision. I'm not going to just sit there and accept a fuck up Bastard Renegade. You realize that one does not have to commit to a ski company for life, right? Keep reading posts, I'm not the only independent thinker in here.
I would guess that you may be wrong about that. Skilled designers know way more than the average Joe about how to build skis for the average Joe.
4FRNT has built some of the best skis out there for years, so any fan boi status they’ve earned. This board is not one to just jump on a hype wagon and never look back, but if you build a quality product and treat the customers right you will get loyalty from core skiers (se also ON3P).
The Renegade IMO was the best ski on the market when it was first introduced.
I agree that you shouldn’t have to ski a Bastard Ren, but maybe pump the brakes a bit til you learn a bit of the history of our sport and this board.
You realize nobody has skied this ski, right? It’s a mistake with thinner edges, bases and softer than the ski Hoji designed and intended it to be. Then 4frnt decided to just go ahead and send out to buyers only to notify them after payment. That’s pretty fucked in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kanone
Yeah, love me sum internet as well. [emoji849]
I was looking at Moments too. They look like a solid company for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailwind
What Priors you pick up? I rode the Overlord about 3 days at Blackcomb and one of those was an over the knee, deep ass, champagne day. Glorious!
Rode the Patrollers 3 days too in less than ideal conditions, and they performed really well.
I just hope 4FRNT can deal financially with this mistake, stay afloat, and become a better ski company for it. I still think they should offer some custom options for their skis like flex and even different year models. Of course, that will mean higher prices for the build. But, a custom ski with ski builder input is golden. Keith at Praxis helped me dial in the perfect Protest for my height, weight, goals, and ski style. Stoked to ride those Babies when we get another huge storm.
LOL. It’s a wild thought but people can both make fun of you and not defend 4Frnt at the same timeQuote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
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Agreed. It’s a damn shame. So much hype. Finally a fat ski for the backcountry was gonna be added to the quiver... til the last minute news.Quote:
Originally Posted by powderslave
Looking forward to 2020 and hoping 4FRNT comes through to “Make the Renegade Great Again.”
Whoah... I feel deja vu here. I think I’ve seen these rants before...Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
This is the risk of cutting the middle man and buying straight from the factory. Being able to flex and inspect the ski before buying really is beneficial. Every pair is different. I liked being able to go into the white room and purchasing skis.
That and I’m of the understanding they desolved the demo fleet to now offer a money back guarantee.Quote:
Originally Posted by cravenmoorehed
I said it before— it’s either crazy or genius.
No skis in the wild and pushing the online presence is sure giving online trolls a lot more power than previously anticipated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cravenmoorehed
Yup. Mos def. A lot of this was covered/predicted in the "Why 4frnt is blowing it..." thread. It's unfortunate that a lot of the concerns in that thread are coming to fruition.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaijin
Official mount point recommendations thread