Why all the Caroline Gleich hate?

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Originally Posted by S_jenks

Wow, this thread.

Beyond the discussions surrounding sexism vs. being unprepared for avvy 3 course, I do wonder how valid the 'social media' angle is when evaluating a person's merits in the backcountry.

The rise of social media in skiing/snowboarding over the past decade has been staggering, and having a presence on platforms like Instagram is not uncommon for amateur and pro shredders alike. In some ways it has been good at garnering exposure for achievements, advancing narratives on environmental protection, and connecting people across large oceans.

But I've been constantly nagged about the 'pro' side of social media, and it's role as a moral hazard in the backcountry. It became very apparent during my college years in Bozeman, where I would often find myself traveling the backcountry ith people who were there primarily to 'get the shot' and 'post it up later'. In more than a couple instances there would be unconformable push by those people to ski in areas that others felt were not safe, as the desire for 'online exposure' was blinding them to the hazards present. Never caught in a slide because of it, but it was never a fun dynamic to have in a group.

It got to the point where I had to start getting harsh about it, and ended up cutting out some bc partners because they were so focuses on filming and shooting. They were chasing their own vanity, and that made for a dangerous bias when decision-time came.

So beyond any question of sexism or general avvy abilites- is it wrong for an instructor to take into account this aspect of social media, given that it may show tendencies and decision-making that go against safe backcountry travel practices? It shouldn't be the reason a person is failed, but is it to be completely ignored when the person has a large and well-known social media presence?

just a thought.

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^^^this

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

It's also *possible* these comments were made in attempt to help her succeed in the future. I don't think they reek of either bias or sexism without more context. And since we weren't there, we just don't know.

Let's put aside the fact that it was Gleich and consider a scenario with an imaginary male participant: Imagine you're an Avy3 instructor and a male ski model turned pro skier with a huge social media following and impressive ski resume takes your class and is pretty incompetent/unprepared and simultaneously vocal and also defensive about his skills? Wouldn't you at least *want* to say something to get the person to look inward and change the way he approaches the mountains so he can stay safe and be more prepared to pass in the future? Wouldn't you want to say something like



And none of those comments would come from a place of sexism or even resentment.

It also seems the guide comment got blown out of proportion -- if someone primarily gets out with people more experienced than him/herself, regardless of whether those people are guides or friends, he/she might have a fair number of accomplishments to his/her name without the knowledge/skills to do them solo. I think that's the point the instructor was trying to make. There's a big difference between skiing something (or climbing or anything outside) where you are the leader versus when someone else is the leader.

Note: I know myself well enough to understand that I'm not a very politically correct person, I don't like to sugar coat things, and I'm also not an experienced instructor/educator, so I would discuss with others (especially my wife) exactly how I gave that sort feedback so it would be well received and not dismissed as some sort of bias. I'd certainly avoid giving feedback that stated or implied the person had hired a guide or gotten out with more experienced people in the past because it's irrelevant, even if I had first-hand knowledge that it was true.

Again, I don't know Gleich's ski resume (and I certainly don't know her personally), so I'm not trying to say she hasn't skied major stuff solo or as the leader. Obviously, it was stupid to put those things in writing, but if she was as incompetent or unprepared as telefreewasatch says, it's possible they were just trying to get her to change her perspective and gain more experience so she is more prepared for her next class.

____________

All that said, sexism is huge in the backcountry. My wife experiences it routinely where she's the most educated person in the group (has her Avy 1-3, has pro-patrolled, assistant guided, etc), but she's ignored because she's the girl in a group of guys. And when she finally speaks up enough to be heard, she (understandably) comes across as pushy. When you're being ignored, it's near impossible to get people to listen and simultaneously not come across as pushy. It doesn't help that she's been injured lately, and people often mistakenly associate competence in decision making (weather, navigation, snow science, etc) with fitness and skiing ability.

PS. Gosh, it would be nice if english had a gender-neutral pronoun.

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^^^and this

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Originally Posted by raisingarizona13

Meh. 'm sure she is a nice gal but this stinks of first world, rich, white girl problems. Cry me a fucking river.

Most people can't afford to "live the dream" and struggle just to get the bills paid....or much, much worse.

I'm pretty over the whole hero worship for pro skiers thing. I mean, it's practically impossible to get to the top of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs so you can spend all of your time climbing mountains without a fat nest to start off with.

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This.

And how many preach incessantly about the environment, yet their carbon footprints are 30x larger with all the nonstop travel all over the fucking place.

With the cost of living in most ski towns, I can’t see how any of these pros make it by just on sponsorship money. There has to be a nest egg in there.

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Originally Posted by The SnowShow

This.

And how many preach incessantly about the environment, yet their carbon footprints are 30x larger with all the nonstop travel all over the fucking place.

With the cost of living in most ski towns, I can’t see how any of these pros make it by just on sponsorship money. There has to be a nest egg in there.

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And there isn't anything wrong with coming from money and having a good time, don't get me wrong, I don't want to come off like a jealous asshole but some of these kids sure could use a good dose of suffering and a serious reality check. #blessed ? Nah....Hows about you go pound sand with that BS ya damn kids. :D

experts on avalanches, women AND their finances!! no wonder everybody here is so rich and happy!

Sent from my SM-J727V using TGR Forums mobile app

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Originally Posted by wyeaster

experts on avalanches the monday morning after, not a clue about women AND their finances!! no wonder everybody here is within a wide range of incomes and happy!

Sent from my SM-J727V using TGR Forums mobile app

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FIFY

im celebrating 21 years of maritial spansership
im roofin agains so i aint poor
but im only a 21 seasoned backcountry journeyman
id take avvy 3
but it seems evident
they dont give participation trophies
RISE AND SHINE MY SJM WARRIORS
THERE ARE WRONGS IN THE WORLD THAT NEED E-FIXINS

you guys that come in here rabidly defending CG crack me up. over the last couple pages has anyone actually tried to "knock her down a peg"? or just stated that you can't be a large player on social media (doesn't matter what genre) without catching some flack from trolls. or that the criticism she received from the proctor may have been constructive after she failed for not having the technical credentials.. basically the logical question that needs to be asked to attempt to understand both sides of the one sided story that we heard.

smjw gonna smjw and you might as well go rabid
im in for $4.20 on a kick starter
but imho she needs Taylor Swift social media marketing 1
more than an avvi 3 do over

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Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

Interesting that he didn't know the range very well yet when he published; lots of classics aren't mentioned. Thank god.
Wolvie is one place.

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in addition to all the sf meadows chutes sick gnars
did i mention my spanser skied the crows feet
and never even passed avvy1
id give her props
but she cried at least twice
and dtm is my witness
she did slay granny's and sushi
probably another but she doesnt have a clit waggin list

I think lil mis cg could really use a deep introspective LSD experience to squash some of that ego that is holding her down and putting her in spots like this. Social media= Self serving ego stroking

If you all can’t see that successful women have to put up with this shit way more than successful men, then you are either dumb or willfully blind. Either way there’s no helping you.

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

If you all can’t see that successful women have to put up with this shit way more than successful men, then you are either dumb or willfully blind. Either way there’s no helping you.

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absolutely. it's sad to be part of and to watch.

There’s good people, on both sides......

So lemme get this straight. cg calls a couple of local high level avy instructors out on Outside online. Hmmm. Was that the best way to handle her grievance?
I bet these instructors had her best interests in mind. What was one of the evaluation comments? Mouth shut, mind open? Something like that.
She shoulda taken some of their advice. Wonder if they're gonna want to give her another go round.
I don't know if this is the best way to convince the local outdoor community of your good intent.
Mind you, the only thing she focused her whining about was the "guiding element" of her trips.
Even though you are left wondering if these were the guys showing bikini photos instead of pit profiles.
The whine is strong with this one. As a father I would advise solving many problems outside of social media. Is that really the fame one wants?
I want my daughter to emulate Angel.

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Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

So lemme get this straight. cg calls a couple of local high level avy instructors out on Outside online. Hmmm. Was that the best way to handle her grievance?

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This is what I was referring to earlier when I said I wish she was more quiet.

Also how in the actual fuck can someone compare black folks speaking out about getting murdered for being black to this privileged person complaining about anything?

I marched with my wife and daughter with a pussy hat on, and in support of black folks, by not for any CG issue.



Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Originally Posted by Supermoon

If you all can’t see that successful women have to put up with this shit way more than successful men, then you are either dumb or willfully blind. Either way there’s no helping you.

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i encourage you to enhance yur social media justice warrior experience and join us IRMFL at bbi19 in carolines hood the satch
hope full the baker bobs brings his better 1/2 and the ice women will be there and my spanser will be there
you can meet super sucessful women who dont even need social media to do it
feel free to bring yur e crush
shes invited to
#neverbeasgoodasbettydee
#opensmouthandprovesitoften

i guess the only way to settle this is for her to start posting here

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

i encourage you to enhance yur social media justice warrior experience and join us IRMFL at bbi19 in carolines hood the satch
hope full the baker bobs brings his better 1/2 and the ice women will be there and my spanser will be there
you can meet super sucessful women who dont even need social media to do it
feel free to bring yur e crush
shes invited to
#neverbeasgoodasbettydee
#opensmouthandprovesitoften

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I will def be trying to make one of the BBIs this year to shred with mags and maybe sample some of the famous space chocolates.

Plenty of experience around badass women in male industries. Many who are on social media and many who are not. It’s these ladies that prove to me that sexist trolls or sexist trolls. My wife deals with it every day and I am real fucking sick of it.

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Originally Posted by mall walker

i guess the only way to settle this is for her to start posting here

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I laughed

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Originally Posted by mall walker

i guess the only way to settle this is for her to start posting here

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She’s Benny

The most badass bitch I ever met in the satch bc was Bob Athey. You wanna talk about WOW factor....

caroline, use all this great technology to your advantage:

download tor

use bitcoin

hire people w baseball bats.

problem. solved.

Hedy Lamarr....

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Originally Posted by byates1

caroline, use all this great technology to your advantage:

download tor

use bitcoin

hire people w baseball bats.

problem. solved.

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that is so sexist of you to imply she cant wield her own baseball bat

^ awesome. prob around big when it gets colder. see you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuWOJmQ_kQE

this is both hilarious and educational.

Disappointing she didn't get any grinds in w Aunt Bee

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Originally Posted by wyeaster

i took good people on both sides as a reference to the celebrity apprentice after charlottesville. in this case, i was referring to men in general, not tgr. basically, every woman i know who has worked for any substantial time in a field dominated by men (so many!) has had to deal with some version of what cg is dealing with. men don't and many don't believe it and/or mimimize it and/or blame it on the woman when presented with any possible evidence of it. i'm not happy to be part of that brick wall.

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I have not been paying close attention to this. But.
I just don't by it.

I do not think there is any way that these avy people cut a woman down just because she is a woman.

NO FUCKIG WAY! the world is not like that.

It's all shit.

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Originally Posted by MTT

I have not been paying close attention to this. But.
I just don't by it.

I do not think there is any way that these avy people cut a woman down just because she is a woman.

NO FUCKIG WAY! the world is not like that.

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Yes it is. It's been that way for centuries. Millennia even.

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Originally Posted by MTT

I have not been paying close attention to this. But.
I just don't by it.

I do not think there is any way that these avy people cut a woman down just because she is a woman.

NO FUCKIG WAY! the world is not like that.

It's all shit.

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compassion for self, compassion for others.

in 2020 women can celebrate 100 years of being able to vote in a country that will be 244 years old!

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Originally Posted by MTT

I have not been paying close attention to this. But.
I just don't by it.

I do not think there is any way that these avy people cut a woman down just because she is a woman.

NO FUCKIG WAY! the world is not like that.

It's all shit.

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So your skeptical of this but not of Alex Jones / Info Wars? Well, that’s certainly interesting...

Lol. Hey at least he's vaccinated

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Originally Posted by TahoeJ

So your skeptical of this but not of Alex Jones / Info Wars? Well, that’s certainly interesting...

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lol

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Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

So lemme get this straight. cg calls a couple of local high level avy instructors out on Outside online. Hmmm. Was that the best way to handle her grievance?

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To be fair, she wrote a blog post on her personal blog defending herself against perceived bias, sexism, and unfounded accusations. The post happened to be picked up on Outside online.

who writes "im not even getting paid to write this article" on their personal blog?
authors get paid to write
bloggers get paid to have ads and click bait shit trafficing crap on their ego enhancement site
and who really needs avvy 3 when you haz #"expert intuition"

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

who writes "im not even getting paid to write this article" on their personal blog?
authors get paid to write
bloggers get paid to have ads and click bait shit trafficing crap on their ego enhancement site
and who really needs avvy 3 when you haz #"expert intuition"

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You’re starting to sound a bit like a hater...

She makes jack shit off any blog ads, I assure you. Unless you consider like $100 per month big money.

Wow this is heating up now. Must be the off season.

I feel like this bit of critique from Avi class is something I encounter a lot in the teaching environment, and that is a very problematic trait in a learner:
"She talks when she should listen and is strongly defensive from the start. Remember respect is earned and never given. By having such a large social media presence, you set yourself up for added criticism and comment, silence your critics through action and decisions, not words."

I'm not teaching in the outdoor realm, but am a nurse and often teach new nurses. New hires coming through an ICU setting that are overly confident, won't listen to feedback, and think they know it all on the first day are SCARY! They are almost guaranteed to be the ones that make the biggest mistakes. Absolutely yes, respect is earned and not given... you can literally kill someone if you fuck up as a nurse, so you don't pass orientation until we can be certain you are safe and will ask for help if you don't know how to do something. This is not all that different than the decision making required to pass an Avi 3 class. I am a strong, outspoken, opinionated woman, but I read her instructor critique as a legitimate concern. The reason she took the class was to learn, but it sounds pretty clear that she wasn't being a good learner, male or female. In the nursing realm, it's the men I have the most issue with this personality trait, but gender aside, it doesn't make it any less dangerous. Also, give some respect to guides. The training and certifications required to be a guide are difficult and take a huge amount of time and experience to accomplish. Just because she has the skiing skills to ski with guide doesn't put her on the same knowledge base as a guide. That's no disrespect to CG, it's just a fact. I ski and climb with guide friends, and would never presume to be equal to them in terms of overall knowledge just because in some arenas I may have the skill to keep up.

The second part of the critique makes sense to me as well. As everyone has said before, having a large media presence lends itself to criticism and trolls. That does not mean that criticism and trolling are acceptable, but the more attention you give to trolls the more power they hold, and the more they have to gain from their shitty actions. I'd wager that 99% of the people on this thread, or in the world that know who CG is would not have wasted time disputing her accomplishment... but now here we are wondering about it. No benefit has come from bringing light the handful of assholes questioning. I don't doubt that Angel Collinson has trolls and people who give her shit all the time. Rather than waste time giving the trolls power and casting doubt, she just skis like a badass and does her thing. Her accomplishments speak for themselves, and anyone who disputes it can suck it. To each their own I suppose, but I feel like in the long run this just invites more feedback, trolling, and criticism.

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Originally Posted by lpkdz

I feel like this bit of critique from Avi class is something I encounter a lot in the teaching environment, and that is a very problematic trait in a learner:
"She talks when she should listen and is strongly defensive from the start. Remember respect is earned and never given. By having such a large social media presence, you set yourself up for added criticism and comment, silence your critics through action and decisions, not words."

I'm not teaching in the outdoor realm, but am a nurse and often teach new nurses. New hires coming through an ICU setting that are overly confident, won't listen to feedback, and think they know it all on the first day are SCARY! They are almost guaranteed to be the ones that make the biggest mistakes. Absolutely yes, respect is earned and not given... you can literally kill someone if you fuck up as a nurse, so you don't pass orientation until we can be certain you are safe and will ask for help if you don't know how to do something. This is not all that different than the decision making required to pass an Avi 3 class. I am a strong, outspoken, opinionated woman, but I read her instructor critique as a legitimate concern. The reason she took the class was to learn, but it sounds pretty clear that she wasn't being a good learner, male or female. In the nursing realm, it's the men I have the most issue with this personality trait, but gender aside, it doesn't make it any less dangerous. Also, give some respect to guides. The training and certifications required to be a guide are difficult and take a huge amount of time and experience to accomplish. Just because she has the skiing skills to ski with guide doesn't put her on the same knowledge base as a guide. That's no disrespect to CG, it's just a fact. I ski and climb with guide friends, and would never presume to be equal to them in terms of overall knowledge just because in some arenas I may have the skill to keep up.

The second part of the critique makes sense to me as well. As everyone has said before, having a large media presence lends itself to criticism and trolls. That does not mean that criticism and trolling are acceptable, but the more attention you give to trolls the more power they hold, and the more they have to gain from their shitty actions. I'd wager that 99% of the people on this thread, or in the world that know who CG is would not have wasted time disputing her accomplishment... but now here we are wondering about it. No benefit has come from bringing light the handful of assholes questioning. I don't doubt that Angel Collinson has trolls and people who give her shit all the time. Rather than waste time giving the trolls power and casting doubt, she just skis like a badass and does her thing. Her accomplishments speak for themselves, and anyone who disputes it can suck it. To each their own I suppose, but I feel like in the long run this just invites more feedback, trolling, and criticism.

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Well spoken, er written.

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Originally Posted by lpkdz

I feel like this bit of critique from Avi class is something I encounter a lot in the teaching environment, and that is a very problematic trait in a learner:
"She talks when she should listen and is strongly defensive from the start. Remember respect is earned and never given. By having such a large social media presence, you set yourself up for added criticism and comment, silence your critics through action and decisions, not words."

I'm not teaching in the outdoor realm, but am a nurse and often teach new nurses. New hires coming through an ICU setting that are overly confident, won't listen to feedback, and think they know it all on the first day are SCARY! They are almost guaranteed to be the ones that make the biggest mistakes. Absolutely yes, respect is earned and not given... you can literally kill someone if you fuck up as a nurse, so you don't pass orientation until we can be certain you are safe and will ask for help if you don't know how to do something. This is not all that different than the decision making required to pass an Avi 3 class. I am a strong, outspoken, opinionated woman, but I read her instructor critique as a legitimate concern. The reason she took the class was to learn, but it sounds pretty clear that she wasn't being a good learner, male or female. In the nursing realm, it's the men I have the most issue with this personality trait, but gender aside, it doesn't make it any less dangerous. Also, give some respect to guides. The training and certifications required to be a guide are difficult and take a huge amount of time and experience to accomplish. Just because she has the skiing skills to ski with guide doesn't put her on the same knowledge base as a guide. That's no disrespect to CG, it's just a fact. I ski and climb with guide friends, and would never presume to be equal to them in terms of overall knowledge just because in some arenas I may have the skill to keep up.

The second part of the critique makes sense to me as well. As everyone has said before, having a large media presence lends itself to criticism and trolls. That does not mean that criticism and trolling are acceptable, but the more attention you give to trolls the more power they hold, and the more they have to gain from their shitty actions. I'd wager that 99% of the people on this thread, or in the world that know who CG is would not have wasted time disputing her accomplishment... but now here we are wondering about it. No benefit has come from bringing light the handful of assholes questioning. I don't doubt that Angel Collinson has trolls and people who give her shit all the time. Rather than waste time giving the trolls power and casting doubt, she just skis like a badass and does her thing. Her accomplishments speak for themselves, and anyone who disputes it can suck it. To each their own I suppose, but I feel like in the long run this just invites more feedback, trolling, and criticism.

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You are right about your assessment of people who think they know it all, but that is not how I read that comment.

An instructor trying to tell someone why they failed would not be worded that way. This sounds a lot more like everyone else who is telling her to just shut up and ski.

Also notable is the total lack of criticism of the community members who are trolling her. Comments above that blame her for opening herself up to it are classic victim blaming. You know what would stop the trolling? If the assholes who can’t handle seeing a successful woman would just shut the fuck up and move on with their lives.