It makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever to compare ACCIDENTAL drownings in the United States with INTENTIONAL terrorist attacks that occur on a world-wide basis. To do so demonstrates, to a high degree, just how far out-of-touch with reality that you really are.
I agree, it is a ridiculous nonsequitur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by astropax
On a similar note, the ones that use the "drowning argument" are usually the same ones that also use the "body count" argument. For example, "we have lost more lives reacting to 9/11 than we actually lost on 9/11 itself."
The straw man response is prepared.
The fallacy behind this response is the supposition that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, however, as I recall, the 9/11 Commission found this not to be the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by astropax
However, by using the flawed "body count" argument, then one would have to argue that we should never have entered World War II in the Pacific...because we certainly lost more lives during the course of the Pacific Campaign then we lost at Pearl Harbor on December 7th.
Wabam! Full on strawman, nobody presented that argument, and yet it is now being attacked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by astropax
Furthermore, back to the drowning, no doubt that people drowned prior to December 7th. And no doubt, it was a larger number then the number of lives lost, at Pearl Harbor, on December 7th.
Continuing refutation of the strawman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by astropax
You throw out a ton of irrelevance, smoke and mirrors, but you have not addressed the main point, the main question. If Iran develops nuclear weapons, then what do YOU suggest that WE do about it? What? Anything?
Please, tell me, I'm all ears.
-Astro
A reasonable question, my answer would be to make an honest effort to make peace with them, and stop acting like we are the rightful rulers of all the Earth. Given that we are in an economic free fall, it would be wise to make some friends.
Quote:
"The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him a friend."
-- Abraham Lincoln
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
— ter·ror·ist \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun
Pretty broad in its potential applications. :wink:
06-16-2008, 07:32 AM
doughboyshredder
Bush IS a terrorist. He has been using fear to advance his agenda since the day after the attacks.
What Rasputin said bears repeating. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Anyone that still purports that it did, is a complete fucking moron.
Iran with Nukes, probably not a good thing. I don't have a clue what we should do over there, but I do know that if we weren't mired in this shitshow of lies in Iraq we would be able to deal with the threat properly.
06-16-2008, 08:03 AM
AKPogue
Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboyshredder
Bush IS a terrorist. He has been using fear to advance his agenda since the day after the attacks.
What Rasputin said bears repeating. Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Anyone that still purports that it did, is a complete fucking moron.
Iran with Nukes, probably not a good thing. I don't have a clue what we should do over there, but I do know that if we weren't mired in this shitshow of lies in Iraq we would be able to deal with the threat properly.
You don't think we have a better bargaining position having our forces on two of their borders they we would have an aircraft carrier parked in the Persian Gulf? According to one report that was released in the papers months ago the Iranians stopped developing Nuclear Weapons in 2003 when we invaded.
06-16-2008, 08:21 AM
AstroPax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
Dresden
...was a legitimate military target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm
III. CONCLUSION
The foregoing historical analysis establishes the following definitive answers to the recurring questions concerning the February 1945 bombings of Dresden by Allied strategic air forces: a. Dresden was a legitimate military target. b. Strategic objectives, of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians, underlay the bombings of Dresden. c. The Russians requested that the Dresden area be bombed by Allied air forces. d. The Supreme Allied Commander, his Deputy Supreme Commander, and the key British and American operational air authorities recommended and ordered the bombing of Dresden. e. The Russians were officially informed by the Allies concerning the intended date of and the forces to be committed to the bombing of Dresden. f. The RAF Bomber Command employed 772 heavy bombers, 1477.7 tons of high explosive and 1181.6 tons of incendiary bombs, and American Eighth Air Force employed a total of 527 heavy bombers, 953.3 tons of high explosive and 294.3 tons of incendiary bombs, in the 14-15 February bombings of Dresden. g. The specific target objectives in the Dresden bombings were, for the RAF Bomber Command, the Dresden city area, including industrial plants, communications, military installations, and for the American Eighth Air Force, the Dresden Marshalling Yards and railway facilities. h. The immediate and actual consequences of the Dresden bombings were destruction or severe damage to at least 23 per cent of the city’s industrial buildings; severe damage to at least 56 per cent of the city’s non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings); destruction or severe damage to at least 50 percent of the residential units in the city’s non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings); destruction or severe damage to at least 50 percent of the residential units in the city, and at least some damage to 80 per cent of the city’s dwellings; the total disruption of the city as a major communications center, in consequence of destruction and damage inflicted on its railway facilities; and death to probably 25,000 persons and serious injury to probably 30,000 others, virtually all of these casualties being the result of the RAF area raid. i. The Dresden bombings were in no way a deviation from established bombing policies set forth in official bombing directives. j. The specific forces and means employed in the Dresden bombings were in keeping with the forces and means employed by the Allies in other aerial attacks on comparable targets in Germany. k. The Dresden bombings achieved the strategic objectives that underlay the attack and were of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians.
Yeah....the RUSSIANS are noted humanitarians:nonono2:
Your logic lends even more support to the use of terrorism. Your broad definition of "legitimate" military targets would most certainly include any young male who would grow up to carry a weapon, the young women who give birth to these boys, and the women already doing so. Your argument leans towards the the support of basic genocide as a means to an end.
The US will do anything when pushed to the wall as will a Palestinian, etc etc.
So given no moral superiority, why don't we side with Iran which would be of great advantage when it comes to oil?
Welcome to the dark side.
06-16-2008, 09:03 AM
Cono Este
Hey Craving Morecock!
It doesn't matter what you fucking think, or Astro for that matter. You were not even alive during ww2. And if you were, I'd want to know whether you had been a victim of that war yourself first before I gave a flying fuck about your rhetoric.
06-16-2008, 09:04 AM
Craven Morehead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
I prefer "THEY FUCKING STARTED IT" arguement.
That's very interesting. It would be interesting to see what the US would "start" if we were attacked financially. Right now the vultures seem to be circling.
Japan also "started it".....but a better question is why?
Perhaps the US approach of passive aggresssion through economic terrorism,
covert operation, and proxy war is not such a good idea. Eventually, people
get tired of being poked in the chest and throw a sucker punch like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.
06-16-2008, 09:07 AM
Craven Morehead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
Hey Craving Morecock!
It doesn't matter what you fucking think, or Astro for that matter. You were not even alive during ww2. And if you were, I'd want to know whether you had been a victim of that war yourself first before I gave a flying fuck about your rhetoric.
That makes sense. Let's cancel all history courses.
06-16-2008, 09:10 AM
Cono Este
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
That makes sense. Let's cancel all history courses.
NO, lets listen to the people who lived history and cancel you.
06-16-2008, 09:16 AM
Craven Morehead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
NO, lets listen to the people who lived history and cancel you.
Ok, we'll start with the Palestinians. They seem to be loving life right now.
06-16-2008, 09:21 AM
Cono Este
Why just start the blame in Israel? How about Churchill or Sadat?
Your reasoning is so definitive and narrow in scope that I think you'd make a great addition to that fucking mess.
06-16-2008, 09:32 AM
summit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
I bet your ancestors commited a few atrocities against blacks or Native Americans. You seem to think you're moral HOWEVER......thrown into the same environment as a Palestinian I would venture to say your legalistic outlook on other cultures would put you at the forefront of the terrorist movement. (similar to the preachers who rail against homos while in the mean time are poking the little boys)
Don't waste your time with this troll. I've been a mag for about 7 years. I have only had 4 people on ignore and those were mostly people posting nasty pictures. That number is now 5. As I said before, nobody is capable of being this stupid except on purpose.
06-16-2008, 09:46 AM
Craven Morehead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Don't waste your time with this troll. I've been a mag for about 7 years. I have only had 4 people on ignore and those were mostly people posting nasty pictures. That number is now 5. As I said before, nobody is capable of being this stupid except on purpose.
What are you, 25? Nobody over 30 would call themselves a mag.
Bet you weren't even born when Vietnam was raging.
06-16-2008, 09:54 AM
mr_gyptian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
That's very interesting. It would be interesting to see what the US would "start" if we were attacked financially. Right now the vultures seem to be circling.
Japan also "started it".....but a better question is why?
Perhaps the US approach of passive aggresssion through economic terrorism,
covert operation, and proxy war is not such a good idea. Eventually, people
get tired of being poked in the chest and throw a sucker punch like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.
OK, we've established that you have read Pat Buchanan's newest drivel.
look at what has happened to countries that have "sucker punched" us.
06-16-2008, 09:57 AM
Craven Morehead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
Why just start the blame in Israel? How about Churchill or Sadat?
Your reasoning is so definitive and narrow in scope that I think you'd make a great addition to that fucking mess.
Were you alive during Churchill? Remember the rules, no discussion of anything prior to your birthdate.
06-16-2008, 10:00 AM
Craven Morehead
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_gyptian
OK, we've established that you have read Pat Buchanan's newest drivel.
look at what has happened to countries that have "sucker punched" us.
Haven't read Pat. Sorry.
You made my point. Thanks
06-16-2008, 10:32 AM
AstroPax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Coward Morehead
Eventually, people
get tired of being poked in the chest and throw a sucker punch like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.
1961-2003.
Yeah, what's one or two sucker punches here and there? Of course, no innocent civilians were hurt in any of these, right?
Part 1 of 2:
-First U.S. Aircraft Hijacked, May 1, 1961:
-Ambassador to Guatemala Assassinated, August 28, 1968:
-Ambassador to Japan Attacked, July 30, 1969:
-Ambassador to Brazil Kidnapped, September 3, 1969:
-Attack on the Munich Airport, February 10, 1970:
-U.S. AID Adviser Kidnapped, July 31, 1970:
-"Bloody Friday," July 21, 1972:
-Munich Olympic Massacre, September 5, 1972:
-Ambassador to Sudan Assassinated, March 2, 1973:
-Consul General in Mexico Kidnapped, May 4, 1973:
-Attack and Hijacking at the Rome Airport, December 17, 1973:
-Ambassador to Cyprus Assassinated, August 19, 1974:
-Domestic Terrorism, January 27-29, 1975:
-Meloy and Waring kidnapped in Beirut, June 16, 1976:
-Entebbe Hostage Crisis, June 27, 1976:
-Assassination of Former Chilean Diplomat, September 21, 1976:
-Kidnapping of Italian Prime Minister, March 16, 1978:
-Ambassador to Afghanistan Assassinated, February 14, 1979:
-Iran Hostage Crisis, November 4, 1979:
-Grand Mosque Seizure, November 20, 1979:
-Ambassador John Gunther Dean's car fired on in Beirut, August 27, 1980:
-Ramstein Air Base Bombing, August 31, 1981:
-Assassination of Egyptian President, October 6, 1981:
-Murder of Missionaries, El Salvador, December 4, 1981:
-Assassination of Lebanese President, September 14, 1982:
-Colombian Hostage-taking, April 8, 1983:
-Bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut, April 18, 1983:
-Naval Officer Assassinated in El Salvador, May 25, 1983:
-North Korean Hit Squad, October 9, 1983:
-Bombing of Marine Barracks, Beirut, October 23, 1983:
-Naval Officer Assassinated in Greece, November 15, 1983:
-Kidnapping of William Buckley, March 16, 1984:
-Restaurant Bombing in Spain, April 12, 1984:
-Temple Seizure, June 5, 1984:
-Assassination of Indian Prime Minister, October 31, 1984:
-Kidnapping of U.S. Officials in Mexico, February 7, 1985:
-TWA Hijacking, June 14, 1985:
-Attack on a Restaurant in El Salvador, June 19, 1985:
-Air India Bombing, June 23, 1985:
-Soviet Diplomats Kidnapped, September 30, 1985:
-Achille Lauro Hijacking, October 7, 1985:
-Egyptian Airliner Hijacking, November 23, 1985:
-Airport Attacks in Rome and Vienna, December 27, 1985:
-Aircraft Bombing in Greece, March 30, 1986:
-Berlin Discothèque Bombing, April 5, 1986:
-Kimpo Airport Bombing, September 14, 1986:
-Athens Bus Attack, April 24, 1987:
-KAL flight 858, November 29, 1987:
-Servicemen’s Bar Attack, December 26, 1987:
-Kidnapping of William Higgins, February 17, 1988:
-Naples USO Attack, April 14, 1988:
-Attack on U.S. Diplomat in Greece, June 28, 1988:
-Pan Am 103 Bombing, December 21, 1988:
-Assassination of U.S. Army Colonel James Rowe in Manila, April 21, 1989:
-Bombing of UTA Flight 772, September 19, 1989:
-Assassination of German Bank Chairman, November 30, 1989:
-U.S. Embassy Bombed in Peru, January 15, 1990:
-U.S. Airman Assassinated in the Philippines, May 13, 1990:
-Attempted Iraqi Attacks on U.S. Posts, January 18-19, 1991:
-Sniper Attack on the U.S. Embassy in Bonn, February 13, 1991:
-Assassination of former Indian Prime Minister, May 21, 1991:
-Kidnapping of U.S. Businessmen in the Philippines, January 17-21, 1992:
-Bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Argentina, March 17, 1992:
-Kidnappings of U.S. Citizens in Colombia, January 31, 1993:
-World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993:
-Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993:
-Hebron Massacre, February 25, 1994:
-FARC Hostage-taking, September 23, 1994:
-Air France Hijacking, December 24, 1994:
-Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995:
-Tokyo Subway Station Attack, March 20, 1995:
-Bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, April 19, 1995:
-Kashmiri Hostage-taking, July 4, 1995:
-Jerusalem Bus Attack, August 21, 1995:
-Attack on U.S. Embassy in Moscow, September 13, 1995:
-Saudi Military Installation Attack, November 13, 1995:
-Egyptian Embassy Attack, November 19, 1995:
-Papuan Hostage Abduction, January 8, 1996:
-Kidnapping in Colombia, January 19, 1996:
-Tamil Tigers Attack, January 31, 1996:
-IRA Bombing, February 9, 1996:
-Athens Embassy Attack, February 15, 1996:
-ELN Kidnapping, February 16, 1996:
-HAMAS Bus Attack, February 26, 1996:
-Dizengoff Center Bombing, March 4, 1996:
-West Bank Attack, May 13, 1996:
-AID Worker Abduction, May 31, 1996:
-Zekharya Attack, June 9, 1996:
-Manchester Truck Bombing, June 15, 1996:
-Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996:
-ETA Bombing, July 20, 1996:
-Bombing of Archbishop of Oran, August 1, 1996:
-Sudanese Rebel Kidnapping, August 17, 1996:
-PUK Kidnapping, September 13, 1996:
-Assassination of South Korean Consul, October 1, 1996:
-Red Cross Worker Kidnappings, November 1, 1996:
-Paris Subway Explosion, December 3, 1996:
-Abduction of US. Citizen by FARC, December 11, 1996:
-Tupac Amaru Seizure of Diplomats, December 17, 1996:
-Egyptian Letter Bombs, January 2-13, 1997:
-Tajik Hostage Abductions, February 4-17, 1997:
-Venezuelan Abduction, February 14, 1997:
-Empire State Building Sniper Attack, February 23, 1997:
-ELN Kidnapping, February 24, 1997:
-FARC Kidnapping, March 7, 1997:
-Hotel Nacional Bombing, July 12, 1997:
-Israeli Shopping Mall Bombing, September 4, 1997:
-OAS Abductions, October 23, 1997:
-Yemeni Kidnappings, October 30, 1997:
-Murder of U.S. Businessmen in Pakistan, November 12, 1997:
-Tourist Killings in Egypt, November 17, 1997:
-UN Observer Abductions, February 19, 1998:
-FARC Abduction, March 21-23, 1998:
-Somali Hostage-takings, April 15, 1998:
-IRA Bombing, Banbridge, August 1, 1998:
-U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998:
-IRA Bombing, Omagh, August 15, 1998:
-Colombian Pipeline Bombing, October 18, 1998:
-Armed Kidnapping in Colombia, November 15, 1998:
-Angolan Aircraft Downing, January 2, 1999:
-Ugandan Rebel Attack, February 14, 1999:
-Greek Embassy Seizure, February 16, 1999:
-FARC Kidnappings, February 25, 1999:
-Hutu Abductions, March 1, 1999:
-ELN Hostage-taking, March 23, 1999:
-ELN Hostage-taking, May 30, 1999:
-Shell Platform Bombing, June 27, 1999:
-AFRC Kidnappings, August 4, 1999:
-Burmese Embassy Seizure, October 1, 1999:
-PLA Kidnapping, December 23, 1999:
-Indian Airlines Airbus Hijacking, December 24, 1999:
-Car bombing in Spain, January 27, 2000:
-RUF Attacks on U.N. Mission Personnel, May 1, 2000:
-Diplomatic Assassination in Greece, June 8, 2000:
-ELN Kidnapping, June 27, 2000:
-Kidnappings in Kyrgyzstan, August 12, 2000:
-Church Bombing in Tajikistan, October 1, 2000:
-Helicopter Hijacking, October 12, 2000:
-Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000:
-Manila Bombing, December 30, 2000:
-Astro
06-16-2008, 10:33 AM
AstroPax
Part 2 of 2:
-Srinagar Airport Attack and Assassination Attempt, January 17, 2001:
-BBC Studios Bombing, March 4, 2001:
-Suicide Bombing in Israel, March 4, 2001:
-ETA Bombing, March 9, 2001:
-Airliner Hijacking in Istanbul, March 15, 2001:
-Bus Stop Bombing, April 22, 2001:
-Philippines Hostage Incident, May 27, 2001:
-Tel-Aviv Nightclub Bombing, June 1, 2001:
-HAMAS Restaurant Bombing, August 9, 2001:
-Suicide Bombing in Israel, September 9, 2001:
-Death of "the Lion of the Panjshir", September 9, 2001:
-Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001:
-Attack on the Jammu and Kashmir Legislature, October 1, 2001:
-Anthrax Attacks, October-November 2001:
-Assassination of an Israeli Cabinet Minister, October 17, 2001:
-Attack on a Church in Pakistan, October 28, 2001:
-Suicide Bombings in Jerusalem, December 1, 2001:
-Suicide Bombing in Haifa, December 2, 2001:
-Attack on the Indian Parliament, December 13, 2001:
-Ambush on the West Bank, January 15, 2002:
-Shooting Incident in Israel, January 17, 2002:
-Drive-By Shooting at a U.S. Consulate, January 22, 2002:
-Bomb Explosion in Kashmir, January 22, 2002:
-Kidnapping of Daniel Pearl, January 23, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, January 27, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in the West Bank, February 16, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in the West Bank, March 7, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, March 9, 2002:
-Drive-By Shooting in Colombia, March 14, 2002:
-Grenade Attack on a Church in Pakistan, March 17, 2002:
-Car Bomb Explosion in Peru, March 20, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, March 21, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in Israel, March 27, 2002:
-Temple Bombing in Kashmir, March 30, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in the West Bank, March 31, 2002:
-Armed attack on Kashmir, April 10, 2002:
-Synagogue Bombing in Tunisia, April 11, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, April 12, 2002:
-Car Bombing in Pakistan, May 8, 2002:
-Parade Bombing in Russia, May 9, 2002:
-Attack on a Bus in India, May 14, 2002:
-Bomb Attacks in Kashmir, May 17, 2002:
-Hostage Rescue Attempt in the Philippines, June 7, 2002:
-Car Bombing in Pakistan, June 14, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, June 19, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in Tel Aviv, July 17, 2002:
-Bombing at the Hebrew University, July 31, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in Israel, August 4, 2002:
-Attack on a School in Pakistan, August 5, 2002:
-Attack on Pilgrims in Kashmir, August 6, 2002:
-Assassination in Kashmir, September 11, 2002:
-Ambush on the West Bank, September 18, 2002:
-Suicide Bomb Attack in Israel, September 19, 2002:
-Attack on a French Tanker, October 6, 2002:
-Car Bomb Explosion in Bali, October 12, 2002:
-Chechen Rebels Seize a Moscow Theater, October 23-26, 2002:
-Assassination of an AID Official, October 28, 2002:
-Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, November 21, 2002:
-Attack on Temples in Kashmir, November 24, 2002:
-Attacks on Israeli Tourists in Kenya, November 28, 2002:
-Attack on a Bus in the Philippines, December 26, 2002:
-Bombing of a Government Building in Chechnya, December 27, 2002:
-Suicide Bombings in Tel Aviv, January 5, 2003:
-Night Club Bombing in Colombia, February 7, 2003:
-Assasination of a Kurdish Leader, February 8, 2003:
-Suicide Bombing in Haifa, March 5, 2003:
-Suicide Bombing in Netanya, March 30, 2003:
-Unsuccessful Hostage Rescue Attempt in Colombia, May 5, 2003:
-Truck Bomb Attacks in Saudi Arabia, May 12, 2003:
-Truck Bombing in Chechnya, May 12, 2003:
-Attempted Assassination in Chechnya, May 12, 2003:
-Suicide Bomb Attacks in Morocco, May 16, 2003:
-Suicide Bomb Attack in Jerusalem, May 18, 2003:
-Suicide Bombing in Afula, May 19, 2003:
-Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, June 11, 2003:
-Truck Bombing in Northern Ossetia, August 1, 2003:
-Hotel Bombing in Indonesia, August 5, 2003:
-Bombing of the Jordanian Embassy in Baghdad, August 7, 2003:
-Suicide Bombings in Israel and the West Bank, August 12, 2003:
-Bombing of the UN Headquarters in Baghdad, August 19, 2003:
-Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, August 19, 2003:
-Car Bomb Kills Shi’ite Leader in Najaf, August 29, 2003:
-Suicide Bombings in Israel, September 9, 2003:
-Assassination of an Iraqi Governing Council Member, September 20, 2003:
-A Second Attack on the UN Headquarters in Baghdad, September 22, 2003:
-Suicide Bombing in Israel, October 4, 2003:
-Attacks in Iraq, October 9, 2003:
-Car Bombings in Baghdad, October 12, 2003:
-Bomb Attack on U.S. Diplomats in the Gaza Strip, October 15, 2003:
-Rocket Attack on the al-Rashid Hotel in Baghdad, October 26, 2003:
-Assassination of a Deputy Mayor in Baghdad, October 26, 2003:
-Wave of Car Bombings in Baghdad, October 27, 2003:
-Suicide Bombing in Riyadh, November 8, 2003:
-Truck Bombing in Nasiriyah, November 12, 2003:
-Synagogue Bombings in Istanbul, November 15, 2003:
-Grenade Attacks in Bogota, November 15, 2003:
-More Suicide Truck Bombings in Istanbul, November 20, 2003:
-Car Bombing in Kirkuk, November 20, 2003:
-Attacks on Other Coalition Personnel in Iraq, November 29-30, 2003:
-Train Bombing in Southern Russia, December 5, 2003:
-Suicide Bombing in Moscow, December 9, 2003:
-Suicide Car Bombings in Iraq, December 15, 2003:
-Office Bombing in Baghdad, December 19, 2003:
-Suicide Car Bombing in Irbil, December 24, 2003:
-Attempted Assassination in Rawalpindi, December 25, 2003:
-Suicide Bombing in Israel, December 25, 2003:
-Restaurant Bombing in Baghdad, December 31, 2003:
-Astro
06-16-2008, 10:38 AM
AstroPax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Coward Morehead
What are you, 25? Nobody over 30 would call themselves a mag.
Bet you weren't even born when Vietnam was raging.
I was sort of wondering about you too.
You are either very young...early 20's maybe...with little in the way of real-world life experiences.
Or, you are a Vietnam era flower child hippie re-living the "glory days".
-Astro
06-16-2008, 10:42 AM
summit
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroPax
I was sort of wondering about you too.
You are either very young...early 20's maybe...with little in the way of real-world life experiences.
Or, you are a Vietnam era flower child hippie re-living the "glory days".
-Astro
Well you had to go and quote him so I could still see his drivel. :nonono2:
That said, nail meet head.
Craving: if my non-political statement make sense to you, if you don't know what a mag is, WTF are you doing on this forum? GTFO
06-16-2008, 11:16 AM
Sparky
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroPax
...was a legitimate military target.
:nonono2::nonono2::nonono2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
I prefer "THEY FUCKING STARTED IT" arguement.
:nonono2::nonono2::nonono2:
Churchill tried to distance himself from Dresden. Even in Total War (which WWII was) wreaking that kind of carnage on civilian populations (25k to 40k innocents dead) is wrong. The Wehrmacht were pretty much on the ropes by that stage. And so what if Russia asked us to do it, we should have listened to Patton, Churchill and Monty and kicked their red assess out of Europe in 1945 except your pres' was weak.
How can the Jewish race having been through the horrors of the holocaust condone Israels persecution of Palestine and the West Bank? I am not defending Palestine terror groups. However the grinding poverty; unemployment; poor sanitation; restriction of the freedoms of movement and association; death & short life expectancy; etc must recruit many into the arms of terror groups.
To answer the op's question: give sanctions, negotiation, diplomacy MUCH more effort and time. Going nuclear should not be considered. Demonise and further isolate Iran and it will not end well for anyone.
Also how many of those who post here demanding nuclear strikes have ever fought in armed conflict? I have friends and family who are vets from WWII, Korea, Falklands and both Gulf Wars. Every vet I have ever known is very reluctant to advocate military force. Because unlike the cowardly politicians (and some posting here) they know how much it fucks them and those they maim and kill.
(I am way over 20, ski a bit, have some life and military experience; do I qualify to comment? :fmicon:)
06-16-2008, 11:55 AM
Roo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
That's the biggest bunch of crap I've heard in awhile.
Become a Quaker. They are dedicated to peace.
A Quaker magazine, reporting the work of an international working party on the Israeli-Palestine conflcit notes that 'we have been disturbed to find that within Israel the option of 'transfer' - that is, the ethnic cleansing of large numbers of Palestinians from the occupied territories, or even of Palestinian citizens from inside Israel itself - is now discussed openly by politicians, intellectuals, religious leaders and many other segments of society... we condemn this idea and any other proposal that fails to respect the equal worth of all of God's children.'
The effect of this policy? Amnesty International devoted a whole report to the targeting of civilians by Palestinian suicide bombers. Between September 2000 and July 2002, at least 350 civilians, most of them Israeli, had been killed in over 128 attacksby Palestinian armed groups or individuals. 'Civilians should never be the focus of attacks, not in the name of security and not in the name of liberty,' Amnesty said. 'We call on the leadership of all Palestinian armed groups to cease attacking civilians, immediately and unconditionally.' The oldest victim of a suicide attack, according to Amnesty, was Chagan Rogan, killed in a Passover bombing at a Netanya hotel on March 27 2002. She was ninety years old.
Grim stuff. Yet there is still a colonial mentality amongst Israeli settlers. Bob Lang , native of Manuet, New York, graduate of Wisconsin University and resdient of Efrat, a settlement of 3,500 inhabitants onm the Hebron road, has clear views on this."No wonder we have these problems. The status quo today is no good. As long as Arabs living here think they will one day have a Palestinian state, they have no reason to come to terms with us. So Israel should stop the military occupation and annex it all outright and tell the Arabs "Your nationalist rights on this side of the River Jordan are finished." The Arabs will accept this when they realise we are serious. The land is mine. I feel it in my bones. It's mine."
This ethnic cleansing must stop if there is to be any hope of peace. For years Palestinians have been failed by their leaders, most notably by Arafat. With a swelling, young population, the genie is escaping from the bottle and Israel needs to act fast if it's to avoid being outbred. Abbas realises this. If Hamas was prepared to play a longer game, they'd win the moral high ground. As ever, Palestinian groups conspire to squander any residual goodwill.
06-16-2008, 12:38 PM
Craven Morehead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo
A Quaker magazine, reporting the work of an international working party on the Israeli-Palestine conflcit notes that 'we have been disturbed to find that within Israel the option of 'transfer' - that is, the ethnic cleansing of large numbers of Palestinians from the occupied territories, or even of Palestinian citizens from inside Israel itself - is now discussed openly by politicians, intellectuals, religious leaders and many other segments of society... we condemn this idea and any other proposal that fails to respect the equal worth of all of God's children.'
The effect of this policy? Amnesty International devoted a whole report to the targeting of civilians by Palestinian suicide bombers. Between September 2000 and July 2002, at least 350 civilians, most of them Israeli, had been killed in over 128 attacksby Palestinian armed groups or individuals. 'Civilians should never be the focus of attacks, not in the name of security and not in the name of liberty,' Amnesty said. 'We call on the leadership of all Palestinian armed groups to cease attacking civilians, immediately and unconditionally.' The oldest victim of a suicide attack, according to Amnesty, was Chagan Rogan, killed in a Passover bombing at a Netanya hotel on March 27 2002. She was ninety years old.
Grim stuff. Yet there is still a colonial mentality amongst Israeli settlers. Bob Lang , native of Manuet, New York, graduate of Wisconsin University and resdient of Efrat, a settlement of 3,500 inhabitants onm the Hebron road, has clear views on this."No wonder we have these problems. The status quo today is no good. As long as Arabs living here think they will one day have a Palestinian state, they have no reason to come to terms with us. So Israel should stop the military occupation and annex it all outright and tell the Arabs "Your nationalist rights on this side of the River Jordan are finished." The Arabs will accept this when they realise we are serious. The land is mine. I feel it in my bones. It's mine."
This ethnic cleansing must stop if there is to be any hope of peace. For years Palestinians have been failed by their leaders, most notably by Arafat. With a swelling, young population, the genie is escaping from the bottle and Israel needs to act fast if it's to avoid being outbred. Abbas realises this. If Hamas was prepared to play a longer game, they'd win the moral high ground. As ever, Palestinian groups conspire to squander any residual goodwill.
As long as evangelical christendom holds to the philosophy of dispensationalism and the idea that Israel still holds God's title to the area, then Israel can do whatever they want and we will stand idly watching thinking it's God's will.
This is the evangelical philosophy behind the support of Israel no matter what and the associated neo-cons like Cheney and GW. And Israel milks this for all it's worth.
Dispensationalism rejects the notion of supersessionism, sees the Jewish people as the true people of God, and sees the modern State of Israel as identical to the Israel of the Bible. John Nelson Darby taught, and most subsequent dispensationalists have consistently maintained, that God looks upon the Jews as his chosen people even as they remain in rejection of Jesus Christ, and God continues to have a place for them in the dispensational, prophetic scheme of things. Dispensationalists teach that a remnant within the nation of Israel will be born again, called of God, and by grace brought to realize they crucified their Messiah. Dispensationalism is unique in teaching that the Church is a provisional parenthesis, until the Jewish remnant finally recognize Jesus as their promised Messiah during the trials that come upon the Jews in the Great Tribulation after the Church is raptured. Darby's prophecies envision Judaism as continuing to enjoy God's protection literally to the End of Time, and teach that God has a separate 'program', to use J. Dwight Pentecost's term, in the prophecies for Jews apart from the Church. Dispensationalists believe that God, is currently dealing with the church, recognized in the New Testament as the "body of Christ," and "house of God," and as a mystery unknown in Old Testament times. They teach that God has not forgotten His eternal covenants with Israel:
Divine Reminders: God's punishment?
A Reuters story reported that some Christian fundamentalists were interpreting the devastating impact on New Orleans as God's retribution on a sinful city.
Michael Marcavage, the director of the Philadelphia-based group Repent America said "we must not forget that the citizens of New Orleans tolerated and welcomed the wickedness in their city for so long. May this act of God cause us all to think about what we tolerate in our city limits." [3]
One participant in an online discussion on the Christian Broadcasting Network website attributed the hurricane to U.S. support for Israel's withdrawal from Gaza settlements. "Whenever this country encourages Israel to give up any part of their rightful God-given land we have suffered the consequences," they wrote. [4]
"Rick Scarborough of Vision America and the Judeo-Christian Council for Constitutional Restoration has stepped up to the plate, blaming Katrina on gay marriage, man-on-horse sex, and Israel for evacuating a portion of the Messiah's planned landing strip," Max Blumenthal reported September 5, 2005, in the Huffington Post.
Media Matters for America has documented statements from three "religious conservative media figures" who "claim Katrina was God's omen, punishment for the United States."
On his September 12, 2005, Christian Broadcasting Network 700 Club program, Pat Robertson, "founder of the Christian Coalition of America and a former Republican presidential candidate, linked Hurricane Katrina and terrorist attacks to legalized abortion." Additionally, on his September 1, 2005, broadcast, Robertson said that President Bush's Supreme Court nominee John G. Roberts, Jr. "can 'be thankful that a tragedy has brought him some good,' inasmuch as Democratic senators may be less likely to question him aggressively." [5]
On the September 9, 2005, broadcast of the Trinity Broadcasting Network's International Intelligence Briefing, Hal Lindsey said "It seems clear that the prophetic times I have been expecting for decades have finally arrived. And even worse, it appears that the judgment of America has begun." [6]
"On the September 12 [2005] broadcast of his BreakPoint radio program, former Nixon special counsel-turned-Christian radio commentator Charles Colson speculated that God allowed Hurricane Katrina as a reminder to the United States of the importance of winning the 'war on terror'." [7]
06-16-2008, 12:44 PM
splat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
On his September 12, 2005, Christian Broadcasting Network 700 Club program, Pat Robertson, "founder of the Christian Coalition of America and a former Republican presidential candidate, linked Hurricane Katrina and terrorist attacks to legalized abortion." Additionally, on his September 1, 2005, broadcast, Robertson said that President Bush's Supreme Court nominee John G. Roberts, Jr. "can 'be thankful that a tragedy has brought him some good,' inasmuch as Democratic senators may be less likely to question him aggressively." [5]
On the September 9, 2005, broadcast of the Trinity Broadcasting Network's International Intelligence Briefing, Hal Lindsey said "It seems clear that the prophetic times I have been expecting for decades have finally arrived. And even worse, it appears that the judgment of America has begun." [6]
"On the September 12 [2005] broadcast of his BreakPoint radio program, former Nixon special counsel-turned-Christian radio commentator Charles Colson speculated that God allowed Hurricane Katrina as a reminder to the United States of the importance of winning the 'war on terror'." [7]
Nuthin gives me a woody like Pat Robertson saying we should assassinate Hugo Chavez. Think his direct line to God was a little fuzzy that day?
Dresden was the result of this guys inability to have reality meet his rhetoric.
06-16-2008, 12:56 PM
Craven Morehead
Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
Nuthin gives me a woody like Pat Robertson saying we should assassinate Hugo Chavez. Think his direct line to God was a little fuzzy that day?
God didn't help him much with his Zaire diamond mining venture.
Wonder if he might be.....OMG.....a false prophet!!
Matt 7:15
[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
06-16-2008, 12:57 PM
doughboyshredder
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPogue
You don't think we have a better bargaining position having our forces on two of their borders they we would have an aircraft carrier parked in the Persian Gulf? According to one report that was released in the papers months ago the Iranians stopped developing Nuclear Weapons in 2003 when we invaded.
That's a good point, that I hadn't really thought of. But, could those troops even be mobilized to deal with Iran? It seems they are pretty well occupied at the time.
06-16-2008, 12:59 PM
Cono Este
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky
:nonono2::nonono2::nonono2:
:nonono2::nonono2::nonono2:
Churchill tried to distance himself from Dresden. Even in Total War (which WWII was) wreaking that kind of carnage on civilian populations (25k to 40k innocents dead) is wrong. The Wehrmacht were pretty much on the ropes by that stage. And so what if Russia asked us to do it, we should have listened to Patton, Churchill and Monty and kicked their red assess out of Europe in 1945 except your pres' was weak.
How can the Jewish race having been through the horrors of the holocaust condone Israels persecution of Palestine and the West Bank? I am not defending Palestine terror groups. However the grinding poverty; unemployment; poor sanitation; restriction of the freedoms of movement and association; death & short life expectancy; etc must recruit many into the arms of terror groups.
To answer the op's question: give sanctions, negotiation, diplomacy MUCH more effort and time. Going nuclear should not be considered. Demonise and further isolate Iran and it will not end well for anyone.
Also how many of those who post here demanding nuclear strikes have ever fought in armed conflict? I have friends and family who are vets from WWII, Korea, Falklands and both Gulf Wars. Every vet I have ever known is very reluctant to advocate military force. Because unlike the cowardly politicians (and some posting here) they know how much it fucks them and those they maim and kill.
(I am way over 20, ski a bit, have some life and military experience; do I qualify to comment? :fmicon:)
It does make a fucking difference ya know? When you've had your own home and town leveled and you were not the aggressor to begin with. My gramps flew a Dresden raid, and those were his word. "they fucking/bloody started it"
Pretty simple.
06-16-2008, 01:08 PM
Craven Morehead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
It does make a fucking difference ya know? When you've had your own home and town leveled and you were not the aggressor to begin with. My gramps flew a Dresden raid, and those were his word. "they fucking/bloody started it"
Pretty simple.
Kind of like Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11.
So when they shoot our troops and civilian contractors......they can say
"They fucking/bloody started it"
excellent post CONO!!
06-16-2008, 01:10 PM
AKPogue
Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboyshredder
That's a good point, that I hadn't really thought of. But, could those troops even be mobilized to deal with Iran? It seems they are pretty well occupied at the time.
I don't see a war with Iran in the future. Maybe a possibility of an airstrike and that is about it. We now dominate the Persian Gulf. The Iranians are really scared and it is a big topic in their discussions with Iraq. So now we deal with the Iranians in a position of strength.
What would we gain in invading Iran except an even bigger mess than Iraq? What most people don't realize is that there is a lot of Iraqi's that are extremely happy that we knocked off Saddam. The problem after the invasion and what we are still dealing with is the inner power struggle of who is going to control Iraq after we leave.
Also why would we invade Iran? I very well doubt that they are planning to invade any neighboring country anytime soon. So in reality the only threat they have is either through terrorism(which they do support) or by developing Nuclear weapons. I personally don't really worry about Iran getting Nukes. Why? Because why would they use them? What would they gain in using them? Only a very few people are suicidal enough to want to kill themselves and using a Nuke on another country would ensure their destruction. A lot of what is printed in the papers is for public consumption and isn't anywhere near the real truth. There is a lot more that goes on behind closed doors than people realize.
06-16-2008, 01:14 PM
Cono Este
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
Kind of like Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11.
So when they shoot our troops and civilian contractors......they can say
"They fucking/bloody started it"
excellent post CONO!!
Let them say whatever the fuck they want to.
But, If you want to place our troops and civilian contractors at the moral disadvantage of some foreign Jihad Joe type then I feel sorry for you.
06-16-2008, 01:20 PM
Liberal Genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
Kind of like Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11.
So when they shoot our troops and civilian contractors......they can say
"They fucking/bloody started it"
excellent post CONO!!
Dude, last I heard, Al Qaida is still recruiting.
Simpleton.
06-16-2008, 01:39 PM
AstroPax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
Kind of like Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11.
Personally, I really don't give a flying fuck if Iraq did or did not have anything to do with 9/11.
Iraq lost the Gulf War, we kicked their ass out of Kuwait, and then they proceeded to violate the terms of the cease fire agreement on a regular and continuing basis, to include pulling a bunch of bullshit within the northern and southern no-fly zones. As far as I'm concerned, that was enough for me...Saddam Hussein had to go.
The biggest mistake that the Bush administration made relative to Iraq was not the invasion itself, but rather allowing a vacuum to develop in the aftermath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
So when they shoot our troops and civilian contractors......they can say
"They fucking/bloody started it"
OK, fine. In that case, now that we have gone full circle, stop your fucking whining every time we shoot back!
-Astro
06-16-2008, 01:44 PM
Liberal Genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroPax
Personally, I really don't give a flying fuck if Iraq did or did not have anything to do with 9/11.
Iraq lost the Gulf War, we kicked their ass out of Kuwait, and then they proceeded to violate the terms of the cease fire agreement on a regular and continuing basis, to include pulling a bunch of bullshit within the northern and southern no-fly zones. As far as I'm concerned, that was enough for me...Saddam Hussein had to go.
The biggest mistake that the Bush administration made relative to Iraq was
ASTROPAX=SMARTER THAN YOU
Nice post, I can hear the idiots rushing in though.
06-16-2008, 01:45 PM
Sparky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
It does make a fucking difference ya know? When you've had your own home and town leveled and you were not the aggressor to begin with. My gramps flew a Dresden raid, and those were his word. "they fucking/bloody started it"
Pretty simple.
If you had to grow up in a UK townscape designed by postwar architects you have my sympathies. Shit I lived in Plymouth and what they did there was bad. ;)
Yep my mates chip shop was bombed; one grandfather pretty much lost his whole battalion in Malaya; the other lost his bro' and most of his mates in Europe; mate i could go on all day.
Not detracting from the heroism of those who flew in Bomber Command, I personally don't think going after non military or industrial targets was a wise move in moral or strategic terms, and retrospective analysis bares this out. Neither would I malign bomber Harris. It's very cosy and liberal of me to look back with hindsight not having had to make tough decisions at the time.
BUT Likewise it seems very easy for the neo-cons to advocate strikes against Iran :nonono2::nonono2: (then think about the consequences and fixing the aftermath later i guess if recent history has taught them anything)
