ON3P SKIS Discussion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr_pretzel

Hey Phiber, you've talked a bunch about the k116, but don't you also have k108s? Want to post a quick review? If you have already done that sorry.

---

So let me start by saying that I am on the 181cm length. I chose this after input from Scott. Pretty much the entire factory, as well as Powtron loved it in 181. I have not owned a ski that short(especially with a progressive mount) for some time. I am beyond stoked on that ski. I guess I will point out that I am using the factory tune/detune.

I got them for what they are, an all mountain jib ski with a backbone. They go fast(but have a speed limit), fly of shit, stable in the air. I fucking love them. I have skied them on days that would have been more appropriate for my 116's in the 186cm length, and not been dissapointed. Though the difference in speed limit was obvious.

Not sure about the catchy comments. like stated. Mine are using the factory tune/detune. I didn't detune like I usually do. never felt catchy to me.

Anyway. I could definitely OSQ the K108. They are perfect for where I ski. And what I enjoy.

One last note on the mount. I mount on the line. Always. Because I'm not a ski designer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mattig

bro A: "I don't like the K108 with my preferred edge tune."

bro B: "You didn't like stock 1/1 tune?"

bro A: "dunno, never tried it. Maybe it's mount"

bro B: "you didn't like stock mount point?"

bro B: "dunno, never tried it."

---

TGR tech talk in a nutshell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zartagen

I've got a pair of last year's 186 K106s from the demo fleet. Idk how big the differences are with this year's 108s, but you're welcome to try them out if you're around here (Vail).

---

The 108 has lower tail rocker, straight taper in tip and tail, as well as an updated tip and tail shape from the 106. It transitions from flat base to edge and back quite differently, especially at speed.

:)

For some of the questions on grabbiness, etc I would reiterate again that we pride ourselves on sending out skis from the factory with one of the best finishes and tunes in the industry.

Perhaps you would like something at a 2 degree bevel, or with a different detune on the ski...but we do ask that you attempt to ski at as is first before changing the tune before hitting the snow.

The reason so many shops and customers have gotten used to doing "new ski tunes" before they even hit the snow is because a lot of ski manufacturers don't give a rat's ass about sending you skis in absolutely horrible condition. Dry bases and bullshit edge bevel are not something we want to ever do for our customers.

My two cents.

Attachment 202377

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TahoeJ

Attachment 202377

---

I enjoyed the 186 k108 at -2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

I enjoyed the 186 k108 at -2

---

I was speaking more of the tune before you ski type thing, but you are correct that out of all our skis the Kartels do have some leeway (minimal). I would still urge to try them at a demo or from a friend before going off the line recommendation, but out of all our skis the Kartels and Magnus do have a little more leeway.

BG, Wren, CD, etc you will die and all of your family members will burn in hell if you mount off the recommended line.

Couplo things:

IME with ON3P skis the type of sidecut on the ski partially determines how tolerant the ski is of moving the mount point.
RES: mount on the line, every time. Probably will ski like shit if you move the mount.
Bi-radius: on the line will be best for 99% of skiers. Tolerant of small moves without ruining the ski.
Elliptical: more tolerant of moving the mount because the sidecut is relatively straight underfoot. I liked the old 110mm Jeffery much better at -2cm than on the line. BUT I'm a directional, tip driving skier and just dislike centered mounts in general. A Wren is more appropriate for me than a Jeffery/Kartel anyway. The 110 Jeffery was more fun for me with an altered mounting point, but it wasn't really the right ski for me to begin with.

Tune: I have changed the tune on one pair of ON3P skis and it didn't really make them any better or worse. Everyone has their own preferences for detune, edge bevels, etc. but ski them stock first and adjust as needed. 95% of people won't change a thing.

ON3P does take a lot more care in getting the mount and tune right for MOST people than just about any other brand out there. Unless you've got a really good reason to fuck with it, don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mattig

bro A: "I don't like the K108 with my preferred edge tune."

bro B: "You didn't like stock 1/1 tune?"

bro A: "dunno, never tried it. Maybe it's mount"

bro B: "you didn't like stock mount point?"

bro B: "dunno, never tried it."

Based on my limited research, feedback from friends, and Scott's self-proclaimed anal retentiveness, I get the impression that ON3P's stock tune and mount point are more 'gospel' than most manufacturers if you want to have a good time. I'm sure some people have a tweak or two that they feel makes an improvement, but I seem to see a lot less of that with Kartels than I do with similar jibby, all-mountain twin tips. They put more thought, testing, R&D into those variables than I would deign to overrule simply based on experiences I've had with other skis. It's too bad you didn't get to evaluate this ski as it was intended.

---

Fair enough, but i having gone from 1-1.5 base bevel in at least 6-8 different skis over the years, i know i just prefer 1.5 (even 2 sometimes). And i have NEVER had an increase in base bevel make a ski GRABBIER (though i did get the sharp parts sharper than stock, but i left the same dull parts dull). I own 189 bg's abd skied those as intended out of the wrapper and ended up changing the tune on those after trying the factory tune. It improved them for me. So... take that fwiw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by unpossible

To be honest I'm still feeling out the 98's, they have been a little grabby (I am pretty sure the mount point is the same on the Jmos/Kartels/Jeffrey's; and I know they were de-tuned from the factory so not sure why).

---

So prior to getting back out onto my K98's this weekend (and prior to my original reply on the matter in this thread; I had 4 days on the skis prior to this weekend) I had ran a gummy stone along the edges. That seems to have addressed the grabbyness and I was quite pleased with their performance this weekend.

Nothing to see here move along. ;)

Chewski, Not saying that was the worst thing to do, but yeah we like people to try them stock. Seems like you found the sweet spot on your BG which is great.

Keep trying them and let us know what you think. You are for sure in the minority saying that the Kartels feel grabby as most people say they feel loose if anything. But everyone is different and it may take some tinkering for some.

Good luck!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by unpossible

So prior to getting back out onto my K98's this weekend (and prior to my original reply on the matter in this thread; I had 4 days on the skis prior to this weekend) I had ran a gummy stone along the edges. That seems to have addressed the grabbyness and I was quite pleased with their performance this weekend.

Nothing to see here move along. ;)

---

Gummy stone goodness.

I did one run with my k106 at -1cm (don't know why, probably just because I could). I don't remember exactly why, but I hated it, so I moved the demo bindings back to center immediately. I'm also a progressive/center mount kinda guy, and tend to mount other brands forward, so that might have something to do with it.

Mount on the line.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PowTron

I was speaking more of the tune before you ski type thing, but you are correct that out of all our skis the Kartels do have some leeway (minimal). I would still urge to try them at a demo or from a friend before going off the line recommendation, but out of all our skis the Kartels and Magnus do have a little more leeway.

BG, Wren, CD, etc you will die and all of your family members will burn in hell if you mount off the recommended line.

---

PowTron,

How far off can you be from BG recommended without affecting ski performance....2-3mm OK? I ask cause I like my life and love my family!

side note...need to learn to mount my own skis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by johnykim

PowTron,

How far off can you be from BG recommended without affecting ski performance....2-3mm OK? I ask cause I like my life and love my family!

side note...need to learn to mount my own skis.

---

You are good with having to move for holes prior in the ski (as you said, very small shifts 2-3mm). With the RES and how it transitions from the fore to aft and then into the sidecut underfoot that is why we don't recommend at ALL moving it majorly (mounting +2cm, -2cm bad juju).

I had to do the same thing on my last BG's when I removed the Guardians and their 37 holes per ski (exaggerating maybe a tad) and put STH drivers on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PowTron

I had to do the same thing on my last BG's when I removed the Guardians and their 37 holes per ski (exaggerating maybe a tad) and put STH drivers on.

---

lol... god damn Guardians and their holes. I had to do the same thing with my skinny goats when I swapped Guardians for kingpins. So I ended up about 5mm forward and it was fine. Then I got boots that just happened to be 5 mm longer so I'm back on the line again, or really close anyway. Heh. ;-)

I'm no tech talk guy anymore. Just like to ski these days when I can. I know this is the current war tread but just popping in to say I love my OG 191 wren (now a rock ski) and my newer to me 191 wren with the orange feathered top sheet. Slight rocker in other wise flatiah tail.

Other than days with fresh (I switch to another ski) I've been on these current skis all season. At KW, for reference. Over the fall I was thinking of checking out some of the narrower versions as a more versatile ski, but I e never felt that these were too wide under foot. They work well in fresh, chopped, cold bumps, all kinds of groomers and corn. They are wonderful in corn.

My question is, is this because we had so much snow this year, and I never got to experience winter hard pack, or is this ski plenty great enough.

I know some of you have been wren lovers as well, but are playing with other shapes, widths and flex. Oh, and top sheets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PowTron

You are good with having to move for holes prior in the ski (as you said, very small shifts 2-3mm). With the RES and how it transitions from the fore to aft and then into the sidecut underfoot that is why we don't recommend at ALL moving it majorly (mounting +2cm, -2cm bad juju).

I had to do the same thing on my last BG's when I removed the Guardians and their 37 holes per ski (exaggerating maybe a tad) and put STH drivers on.

---

thanks. didn't think it would make an impact being off couple of mm. first time mount and the shop was off just a bit....not enough to make a stink.

And now I will chime in on the Wren discussion as I have a few pair of those as well (11/12 191 Wren, 14/15 186 Wren 102) (Hi my name is unpossible, and I do not have a problem)...

I had same 09/10 OG 191 Wren as you, eventually replacing them for the 11/12 model. While I have moved towards shorter and narrower skis for every day use, I put a ton of days on my OG pair, and a decent amount on the new pair, in all conditions, and I've never had any problems on winter hard pack. The only reason I picked up the 102's was after a string of crappy seasons and my desire for something more groomer friendly.

I have a old pair of 10/11 wrens that I love. They do great on hardsnow, but with the 30m'ish turn radius you just need the room to let then run. If not "slarving" your way down the mountain is great too, but requires some effort and skier input. They are also "slowish" from edge to edge

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

I enjoyed the 186 k108 at -2

---

Same for me with the k106s (I think, the green ones with the skeleton). I found myself a little uncomfortable on the line, and 1 cm back helped a bit. 2 cm back is where I settled. These were from the demo fleet, so I don't know how precise the tune was anymore. I haven't fucked with it.

On all 3 pairs of ON3P skis we have, I mounted on the line (BG, K98, Wren 88). Haven't felt a need to move any of them on my pairs, and the wife seems perfectly happy with the mount point on hers. The tune from the factory is phenomenal as well, and I've seen no need to mess with that either.

I know TGR is home to the armchair quarterback, but seriously, ON3P has put more thought into the finished product than anyone else. Others get the design right, materials right, etc. but nobody else combines all that and a remarkable attention to detail in the final product headed out the door; that's unparalleled, imho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chewski

Fair enough, but i having gone from 1-1.5 base bevel in at least 6-8 different skis over the years, i know i just prefer 1.5 (even 2 sometimes). And i have NEVER had an increase in base bevel make a ski GRABBIER (though i did get the sharp parts sharper than stock, but i left the same dull parts dull).

---

it was GRABBIER because of the BURR(that sharpness you felt is the burr), get rid of it and it will feel smooth, use a hard stone or diamond, gummies are damn near worthless,IMO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MHSP1497

The tune from the factory is phenomenal as well, and I've seen no need to mess with that either.

I know TGR is home to the armchair quarterback, but seriously, ON3P has put more thought into the finished product than anyone else. Others get the design right, materials right, etc. but nobody else combines all that and a remarkable attention to detail in the final product headed out the door; that's unparalleled, imho.

---

Best factory tune of any ski I've purchased.
Of note here though, of the two dudes complaining of GRABBINESS, one's pair came from a demo fleet and the other has changed his tune(and left burrs in the process)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tuco

it was GRABBIER because of the BURR(that sharpness you felt is the burr), get rid of it and it will feel smooth, use a hard stone or diamond, gummies are damn near worthless,IMO

---

if you think gummy stones are worthless, you may not be using them right.

I'd keep most any coarseness of diamond stone in a file guide unless I was aggressively detuning tips/tails. Blue or finer gets freehand sometimes for burrs/nicks where gummy requires too much elbow grease.