4FRNT Renegade ~ Hand built in SLC.

So got out on the Renegades for a quick rip yesterday.
40cm's of fresh overnight, light density blower so not exactly trying conditions.
Haven't really been chucking my meat much this season but hit a few 20ish footers yesterday and the tails popped me right back up from some backslaps which was nice.

I have skied my Hoji's in pretty much any condition from glacier ice-melt freeze ice-windslab-80+cm in 24hrs and they do it all fairly well. The renegade just goes faster in the deep which i find allows you to have more fun in less steep pillowy terrain and the stiffness and width would perform excellent on big open faces and smaller steep terrain that you feel confident really blasting out of, for general couloir skiing and billygoating where you probably wont be pinning an entire line I feel the hoji's work just fine and are more nimble and can still shred very fast as is. I added the Renegades as a more specific quiver ski myself then a full time daily driver.
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Compared the new 184 with the old 186's today. Clearly, they are in the same family of skis, but with some differences to note. Overall, I think the new ski will be more fun in playful terrain and trees, while having more of a speed limit.

1. Flex pattern is the largest difference. White room skis have a stiff flex throughout the whole ski, well into the tips and tails. The ibex renegades have much softer tips and tails (first and last 12"). Both feel very solid underfoot, and it is tough to gauge the difference.

2. Tip rocker: white rooms on top, ibex bottom. Note the ~4cm difference in length between the 186 and 184 and increased tip splay.
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3. Tail rocker: Ibex on top, white rooms bottom. Note huuuge tail splay increase.
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Still debating how to mount these up. Leaning towards a lighter tech setup.

Thanks everyone for all the advice and insight on the Ren/Protest/Automatic Quiver debate! Man, people are awesome on here!
Lots of great insight and points brought up regarding versatility, binding selection, and comparison to the Hojis.

I think I'm going to keep the Protests and throw on some beefier bindings so they can become a powder weapon on those oh so special days at the resort. I'll probably bite the bullet and buy some Shifts or Tectons for the Rens with plans of running them as my main touring ski, (and potentially the one pair of skis I bring on hut trips or resort trips when space is limited.) The Automatics will remain in the quiver for their versatility. Lastly, I plan to keep an eye out for a Hoji or Raven for spring skiing conditions, including backcountry couloirs. (This is a lower priority at this point. I just want to get the Renegades and Protests dialled in and then I'm super set!
I agree with the point about release reliability of PIN Bindings at the resort. While I love how my Kingpins ski, I do often think that Shifts or Tectons with their toe elasticity and release capability would offer some insurance against potential knee injuries. My next binding purchase will reflect this.

Thanks also for the posts above regarding the experience on the new Rens and the flex and rocker comparison of the new 184s with the OG 186s.
I'm super curious to hear an in-depth comparison of how the new Rens ski as compared with the OG Rens.

Thanks for the writeup and photos. What was your observation on length? Do the 184 ibexes feel substantially shorter than the 186 owls? The rocker profile comparison makes me think the 191 ibex would be more comparable to the 186 owl.

186 owl is a great ski but I'm finding I prefer it for bc days or any day where there a strong possibility of fresh tracks. I'm gravitating toward my 116c mind benders for most inbounds deep days because they are so much more fun in tracked out and packed snow.

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I’m also curious to know how the new (20/21) 191 compares to the old heavy (13/14/15) 186. Judging by rocker profile, flex, weight, they may be similar, I mean, the new 191 shouldn’t be more demanding than the old 186 ?

I took a few runs on the new 191. Hard snow only: grippy groomers and skied out bumpy stuff... no new snow in a long time, so not a great test. Very similar feel to OG Rens. I didn’t back to back them and not ideal snow, but I’d say in those conditions they feel in between the 186 and 196 rens. Definitely some of the smoother feel of the 196, without feeling quite as unwieldly, and not quite as lightning quick across the fall line as the 186 (which can feel nervous, especially on harder snow). Generally, probably better behaved in those conditions than either the 196 or 186. Didn’t run into any particular speed limit as long as they were on edge but I wasn’t really trying, either.

Needed similar technique as the OG rens, which is a pivot/carve kind of turn (not a scarve) while keeping the skis mostly underneath you. If I had to ski them all day it wouldn’t have made me sad, though I have fun with renegades on hardpack and many do not share that experience, so ymmv.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

I took a few runs on the new 191. Hard snow only: grippy groomers and skied out bumpy stuff... no new snow in a long time, so not a great test. Very similar feel to OG Rens. I didn’t back to back them and not ideal snow, but I’d say in those conditions they feel in between the 186 and 196 rens. Definitely some of the smoother feel of the 196, without feeling quite as unwieldly, and not quite as lightning quick across the fall line as the 186 (which can feel nervous, especially on harder snow). Generally, probably better behaved in those conditions than either the 196 or 186. Didn’t run into any particular speed limit as long as they were on edge but I wasn’t really trying, either.

Needed similar technique as the OG rens, which is a pivot/carve kind of turn (not a scarve) while keeping the skis mostly underneath you. If I had to ski them all day it wouldn’t have made me sad, though I have fun with renegades on hardpack and many do not share that experience, so ymmv.

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How long do the measure vs. the OG 186 rens?

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Originally Posted by stuntmanbo

I’m also curious to know how the new (20/21) 191 compares to the old heavy (13/14/15) 186. Judging by rocker profile, flex, weight, they may be similar, I mean, the new 191 shouldn’t be more demanding than the old 186 ?

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Your right. I had both.

191s dedicated BC ski. 186s stiffer and sweet spot at higher speed.

The sheer weight and guts of the new ones is unbelievable.

I sold the 186s because I like the longer ones but still regret it a bit.

Both incredible skis.

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I saw a dude skiing in bounds today with the new Raven with TourLock. What a cool idea! Can I just drill a hole through my existing skis to copy that? Jk...unless

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Originally Posted by NathanL

I saw a dude skiing in bounds today with the new Raven with TourLock. What a cool idea! Can I just drill a hole through my existing skis to copy that? Jk...unless

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You probably could if you sealed it right, but might be more hassle than it's worth.

Would you say the 191 requires more input to ski/feel bigger?

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Originally Posted by Hughwindlip

Your right. I had both.

191s dedicated BC ski. 186s stiffer and sweet spot at higher speed.

The sheer weight and guts of the new ones is unbelievable.

I sold the 186s because I like the longer ones but still regret it a bit.

Both incredible skis.

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I'd say less.

But I was skiing it in blower pow at golden alpine holidays most of the time.

Also skied a couple days at Whistler, K Horse and Cypress... I'd say it's less input than the older heavier 186 green black. Pretty close though.

It's a lot lighter so that plays a big part. I have MTN Tech bindings brakeless on the 191 and had shifts on the 186 so that could make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Hughwindlip

I'd say less.

But I was skiing it in blower pow at golden alpine holidays most of the time.

Also skied a couple days at Whistler, K Horse and Cypress... I'd say it's less input than the older heavier 186 green black. Pretty close though.

It's a lot lighter so that plays a big part. I have MTN Tech bindings brakeless on the 191 and had shifts on the 186 so that could make a difference.

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Ok thanks. Am coming off a set of 186's and have some 184's sitting here and debating on whether to bump up to the 191. Sounds like that might be the right call.

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Originally Posted by tupp_

Ok thanks. Am coming off a set of 186's and have some 184's sitting here and debating on whether to bump up to the 191. Sounds like that might be the right call.

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Go bigger seems right. More rocker in the tips, 191 feels like the right size coming off an ole 186.

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Might be apples to oranges, but my lighter build 187 hojis definitely ski shorter than my 186 owl rens. Very similar feel, but more rocker on the newer models for sure.

Wish they had a 191 Hoji, although it sounds like they may be tweaking the Hoji mold for next year, so who knows what will come out of the lab??

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Originally Posted by dub2

Might be apples to oranges, but my lighter build 187 hojis definitely ski shorter than my 186 owl rens. Very similar feel, but more rocker on the newer models for sure.

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Noticed the same with my red white hojis vs pils. Similar trend with the Ren's maybe.

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Originally Posted by tupp_

How long do the measure vs. the OG 186 rens?

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I can’t, for the life of me, find any of the measuring tapes in this house.

But here are some pictures.


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^^^ Funny, I just picked up a used pair of OG Rens (tele) for my brother... Same pic, 186 OG vs 191 new guys
And of course they load sideways for some reason
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Alright... can any bigger guys compare the old 196 to the new 191? thanks

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Originally Posted by Judo Chop!

Alright... can any bigger guys compare the old 196 to the new 191? thanks

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It’s going to be way too small for you. It skis way smaller, feels the same as the 186. There is a lot more rocker and they are softer too

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Originally Posted by m104da

And of course they load sideways for some reason

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Not helpful cause we need to know how much taller they are. You have some sort of weird extremely fat and short version. Maybe a Hoji prototype gone wrong.

^^^new proto hoverboard versions... I'll try again, showing side-by-side to highlight rocker (new on left, OG on right)
New Ren is def more tail rocker (last pic)
New is more tip-wide rocker too, but really more tip splay at the end I'd say
Tip to tail tape measure (just straight pull)...
Old 186 = 184 cm
New 191 = 189 cm
New rens weighed in @ 2140
Definitely lighter, softer, and more big bc ski. I'm putting inserts in so can run em w/ alpine and AT binders
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If anyone is interested in a pair of 186 owl rens with wardens in outstanding condition and mounted for 305 BSL, PM me. Love them, but just changing my quiver around. Located in CO.

Thanks all for the photos! Great to see the realities here.

Honestly, the 191 looks longer than expected! Anyone ski the 184 vs. the OG 186? Haven't heard that take yet...