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FWIW, I spent many pow days this season skiing a 184 BG (16/17), with a couple days on the asymmetrical 189 17/18. The 184 never felt like it wanted to dive, I'd rather be on the 189, but I was still able to get after it on the 184.
I haven't skied a 191 Kartel 116, but the 186 skied great and had a really balanced feel. If I got a pair it would likely be in the 186cm length, not the 191 length (5'10" ~200lb).
So Kartel 108s or 116s? Assuming 186 length
Gonna be in a quiver most likely with 180 Brahmas, 176 Jeronimos, 187 concepts, and 192 protests
Logically the 108 fits the gap between the narrow skis and fatter skis, but the 116 just sounds so fun in pow and a nice change of pace from the type of ski the concept is to mix things up. Course the protests are pretty pivoty too
I'd take the 108s out in 2-8 inches, 116s probably 4-12
116s
Jeronimos for the other days
I think I wanna come demo tomorrow, will you have both sizes of the BG available? I think I want the 189s but I also wouldn't mind some maneuverability for tight woods.Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierD
Bro, do you even lift?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier
Lately, just been skiing a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
You're right. If I recall, I've got 30-40 lbs on you right?
I'm ashamed I even suggested the shorter size.
Something like that. I'm around 160-165.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier
Just messing with you, obviously. Buy whatever size works best for you. If you have 202 L138s, you've already got something to rage on.
and 2x pairs of 192 lp105 and a set of 192 big dumps... got the ragers covered. a tree pivoter might be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
A little behind on this thread due to life, but wanted to chime in on the Kartel discussion, and I'm not good with the ski jargon/lingo, or describing in detail my thoughts on skis but here goes...
I'm not really sure if the desire is to compare them to BG's or something else, I've owned BG's, but sold them, as I am a fan of elliptical sidecut. Or what width is primarily of interest.
I currently own and have skied this season 186 Jmo (102), 191 Caylor (120), 186 Jeffrey (110), and 186 Kartel (98), all mounted on the line except the Caylor's (I think). I also demo'ed the 186 Kartel (106) at Bachelor for 3 days a few years ago.
The Kartel's are a replacement for my Jmo's that now have 110+ days on them (you can pry them from my cold dead hands). At the time I felt the 106's would have been too close to the Jeffrey's to justify the purchase, so I went with the 98's.
To be honest I'm still feeling out the 98's, they have been a little grabby (I am pretty sure the mount point is the same on the Jmos/Kartels/Jeffrey's; and I know they were de-tuned from the factory so not sure why). My daily driver this season has definitely been the Jeffery's given the conditions in Tahoe and I have loved them. I could see a Kartel 108 skiing very similar.
Comparing the Jmo's to the Jeffrey's (since i have the most days on both), I find both equally acceptable on hard pack and groomers, with the Jmo's being better in the bumps and trees.
If I could do it again I think I would go back and get the 106's in a 191.
(TahoeJ, I'm not sure which Kartel your interested in but if your BSL is around 305 and you want to try the 98's at Alpine sometime let me know).
^^ I'm not interested since I have Wren 108's on the way but would still love to try them just because. I'm a 305 BSL too so we should definitely meet up sometime as that would make for easy ski swaps. Based on your ski description I'm pretty sure we've shared a chair or two at Alpine in the past, since I tend to notice fellow ON3P kooks.
Having a similar experience on the k108. I sharpened them underfoot more than factory, but detuned tips and tales as per factory tune. Mounted on the line. I love the on snow feel and the stability/maneuverability is there, but i am fighting the shape, tune, mount or all three. mounted on the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by unpossible
Xavierd, you ski em -2cm from the line, right? Anyone with input on how this mount works vs on the line? I prefer traditionally mounted skus, but gave on the line a shot, since i loved the devastators (another chargy jib ski) at ~-4cm from center. I mostly ski fast down thefall line, but i actually do some spinny (no more flippy... too old) shit.
You might be feeling the difference between elliptical and bi-radius sidecut. Pretty sure the jmo and Jeffrey both had bi-radius, while the Kartel 98s (and 106) are elliptical.Quote:
Originally Posted by unpossible
I never grew to like my Kartel 98s, and I'm pretty sure it's because of the elliptical sidecut. I liked the Jeffrey I demoed and will happily buy some K116 once my quiver has a hole in it, but I'm out on elliptical sidecut skis.
I threw mine at -2.5cm and found that it reduced my problems, but didn't eliminate them, and in the process killed everything I liked about the ski (playfulness, pop, switch, the feel, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by chewski
I also couldn't figure out why I didn't like them. I even made an ass of myself here barking up the wrong tree(s). I've since settled on blaming elliptical sidecut, after more demos and research.
For what it's worth, I don't think elliptical is crap, it's just not for my style of skiing. Lots of manufacturers use it on popular skis. My wife loves her K98s and to my eye carves them better than anything else she owns.
I've got a pair of last year's 186 K106s from the demo fleet. Idk how big the differences are with this year's 108s, but you're welcome to try them out if you're around here (Vail).Quote:
Originally Posted by North
@iggyskier @powtron
Considering upgrading my 186 Wren102s next year, will probably get Enforcer93s for hardpack and groomers and xxxxx on3p + kingpins or beast16 for a soft snow DD with winter touring capabilities. 190cm(85kg, decent skier. Lots of semi-tight trees, some open steeps, some crud, a bit of groomers, more heavy than light snow most days. Have 186BGs, 191BGtours and the 102s. Have skied OG C&Ds for years (great ski), have also tried OG 191 Wrens (too much ski for the terrain and snow I tend to ski)
Kartels are probably out of the question as I tend to not get along with a forward mount, so I've been thinking about wren108s, possibly in a slightly softer flex.
The things I like about the 102s:
- pretty decent float for their width
- fun on softer groomers
- can handle a bit of crud, as long as you commit to the fall line
- can be poppy/playful in certain conditions
The things I don't like
- the middle of the ski is a bit too stiff compared to the tip and the height of the tip rocker? Anyhow, makes it difficult to bend the middle of the ski / get good edge hold on hard surfaces
- the tail can be hooky in trees/heavy snow
- in steep terrain/heavy snow the tip tends to flex a tiny bit too much, pulling you across the fall line more than I'd like
How would the standard (184/189) Wren108 ski compared to this? Hard snow performance will be less important than it is now for the 102s as I'll bring in something narrower
And......is the racing green custom top sheet available?
If anyone is interested in some 2014/15 Wrenegade 112's in 186cm mine are for sale: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...omon-Guardians
Awesome skis but repetitive to keep them around with Wren 108's on the way. Priced to sell, so a good deal for someone who has been on the fence about them.
iggyskier or PowTron, can you confirm this, I can't exactly load up an old product page. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasGortex
I did not feel this difference when I demo'ed the 106 Kartel's from the same year as the 98s (demon virgin mary top sheet; or whatever it is). I enjoyed them very much, unless there was a difference between the 98s and the 106s that year.
Edit: The demo 106's may not have been "mounted on the line" based on the Attack13 adjustment which could also be a contributing factor.
Edit2: Should have googled harder, found the look book from 13/14, my old Jmo's and Jeffrey's were both elliptical sidecut.
Praxis RxQuote:
Originally Posted by flowing alpy
Maybe the misses will just start responding to threads with "ON3P BG."
Tuning issue. Probably burrs. De-burr all the edges. If this doesn't fix the problem, reset bevels, deburr and detune to yours or factory specs. Alpinord has a thread from the last week in techtalk(somewhere in the first few pages) that will explain much better than I can. Its called something like 'deburr vs detune"Quote:
Originally Posted by unpossible
Quote:
Originally Posted by flowing alpy
:D
From what Scott has told me, they changed some design elements in the Kartel line that they were not happy with. I forget the EXACT bit, but I will say that I was not in love with the old Kartel 98. I was pretty much one run and done. But the changes make it a better all mountain ski. If it skis anything like the rest of the Kartel line that i'm in love with. Then it would certainly be pretty fun. Given the right style of skier.Quote:
Originally Posted by unpossible
Hey Phiber, you've talked a bunch about the k116, but don't you also have k108s? Want to post a quick review? If you have already done that sorry.
I got a second full day in at mammoth on my 186 kartel 108's. First day was full spring thaw/refreeze cycle, but some cloud cover kept the mountain from really softening much. Today the sun was goin strong and i skied everything from bulletproof groomers to deep slush bumps.
I detuned the full length of the ski pretty well since the first day, and it made a world of difference. Still grippy enough for the HARD morning groomers, but no longer grabby and unpredictable. I am positive the tune i did was done well and was not an issue with hanging burs, but these skis just don't seem to tolerate being that sharp. It made them a handful where you constantly had to focus and could only maintain a neutral stance. If i got on the tips/shins at all when they were SHARP, they would grab. Now they tolerate some decent driving/shin pressure once detuned, which is fine since they still bite when dullled.
These skis have shown me a much better time, and i can now see why they are very popular. However, i still have skis for a similar application that i just like better. I am still a bit off with the -4cm mount, although devastators rock with this mount point for me. But i have skied a LOT of skis in this ~108mm all mountain/chargy class, and these certainly do a lot right. My sale thread is still up while i mull it all over...
I finally had a chance to get out on my K98's yesterday at Northstar. It started out with icy refrozen groomers and progressed quickly into soft mashed potatoes under the warm sun.
On the icy crust these skis were great, the extra stiffness really seemed to help them feel strong in turns. I did not get any of the grabiness some of the others seems to have experienced. The skis do surface 360's really easily and are easy to maneuver riding switch.
Once the snow softened up, these things really came alive. They're just a blast on the hill and handled everything I threw at them well. I had these purpose built for this kind of skiing and they did not disappoint. The extra stiffness from the stiff carbon fiber made for a very solid and stable feel to the tips and tails. I could lean into the tips and drive with my shins, ride neutral and even not get too punished for ending up in the backseat.
tl;dr - great skis that are easy to flick around, handle icy groomers well and generally make for fun skiing.
bro A: "I don't like the K108 with my preferred edge tune."Quote:
Originally Posted by chewski
bro B: "You didn't like stock 1/1 tune?"
bro A: "dunno, never tried it. Maybe it's mount"
bro B: "you didn't like stock mount point?"
bro B: "dunno, never tried it."
Based on my limited research, feedback from friends, and Scott's self-proclaimed anal retentiveness, I get the impression that ON3P's stock tune and mount point are more 'gospel' than most manufacturers if you want to have a good time. I'm sure some people have a tweak or two that they feel makes an improvement, but I seem to see a lot less of that with Kartels than I do with similar jibby, all-mountain twin tips. They put more thought, testing, R&D into those variables than I would deign to overrule simply based on experiences I've had with other skis. It's too bad you didn't get to evaluate this ski as it was intended.