Zwift, TR, Sufferfest etc

Thanks for the insight, all. I guess I left the question pretty open-ended, not sure what I'm really after as far as knowledge goes. Maybe I'm looking more for some advice or insight on more generally what kind of training should I be doing / would be helpful for me. Obviously I can't expect y'all to really be able to dispense advice because none (well, most) of you don't know me, haven't ridden with me, don't know my fitness level, don't know my goals, blah blah blah. And for me it's kinda difficult "picking a plan" because I don't race, I don't have an event I'm working towards, I just generally want to be able to ride faster up and down and not get shelled by my buddies on big mountain bike rides. It just occurred to me that maybe the answer is to simply find some slower friends... like rideit.

My "plan" in the past is similar to a lot of ya... just ride as much as I can. I'm guessing I don't do the volume that some of you fast guys do... is that the key for where I'm at now? Just add volume? It sure seems like I've been about as fast as I am now for a bunch of years, despite an increase in trail miles over the years. So will adding some focused "riding" that works on specific things (e.g. slow cadence power, leg speed, general FTP building, increasing cardio capacity, whatever) help push me to a new level? And what of those things am I lacking in? How do you figure that out? Am I overthinking the fuck outta this? (yes, btw)

At any rate... I'm just babbling now. Thinking out loud on the keyboard. DOn't pay no nevermind to the idiot muttering to hisself in the corner... I'll probably see y'all tomorrow afternoon where I once again try to figure out how to sustain 3-3.5w/kg up that fucking tiny hill three times in a row. That shit is tough on Lap 3. Jayzus.

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Originally Posted by Flounder

Got boring after a month. Started just riding routes which was a lot more fun.

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This is kinda my concern with getting on a "Plan"... that I'll get bored. I've never really trained for anything, aside from some light weight training/conditioning for racing slow amateur DH racing 10-15 years ago. And I hated the gym, frickin' bored me to tears. So I was never good at "training" per se. I am hopeful the element of the Zwift engagement for "workout rides" will make it fun enough to stick with.

FT - My $0.02 recommendation is just ride more until that stops working, which maybe you're at now. Beyond that the level and type of training can vary pretty significantly depending on your available time and desire, but the very general two schools of thought are polarized training (LOTS of easy volume, like really easy, and then a little bit of Hard like REALLY hard, which shifts as you get closer to the events/season) or Sweet Spot which amounts to riding pretty hard much of the time with easy and really hard mixed on top of this. Grossly oversimplifying and for most people Sweet spot will get you pretty damn far if you're willing to push yourself, but you can burnout on this with too much of it. The what's too much and what's not enough varies though.

For what it's worth I got pretty damn fast on more Sweet Spot training, but it already kinda worked into my schedule of 1 hr lunch rides x3/wk and <90 min group rides w/ fast guys 1-2x/wk. I raced Cat 1 XC pretty seriously so was complimentary to that, but would often completely fall apart after 2 hours compared to people doing more traditional polarized builds. I used TrainerRoad pretty heavily those days which is almost all Sweet Spot.

Yes, it's a complicated topic with more opinions than anyone has time to read. However, there are some truths;

- Riding with faster people is almost guaranteed to make you faster if you push yourself
- There is very ilttle chance you can replicate outdoor intensity with indoor intensity alone. So get outside as soon as possible
- Taking a giant shit right before a ride/race are the kinda gains you're looking for

If you’re like me and you’re just looking for better fitness on a recreational level I’m finding that collecting the route badges has been motivating. I printed the list of routes from zwift insider (which are grouped by difficulty) and just started with the easy ones. This isn’t a structured plan of course but with regards to volume it’s a somewhat natural progression. Some of the super long routes appear too long and boring to likely ever do them.

Adding in group rides (like TGR that turns into a race), a weekly climb up the alp (between 1-2 hours of steady pushing for most people), and the odd race all contribute.

My goal is to not be a lard ass with weak legs in the spring when biking with friends from warmer climates. I can already tell zwifting like this will make a significant difference.

^^

I agree: ride more and have fun until you find yourself on a plateau. It's like climbing--no real "training" is worth it if you're not climbing 5.11. Below that the answer is just to go climbing a lot.

VTskibum offers a great summary of the effective difference between SS and polarized training methodologies. I was just telling a friend who has similar goals that if he only has, say, 10h a week to train, SS will prob be better for him. With unlimited time, the science says polarized is better, though. Total annual training hours is another way to look at it. IMO 700 hours is where serious fitness can be built, but that requires a bunch of 18+hr weeks in the base period, so if doesn't work for everyone.

Also, remember that your body only sees stress. It doesn't know whether it's from riding, working construction, or fighting with your girlfriend. You can only take so much, so try to be aware of the total package.

Personally I'm probably not going to do any racing this year, but I will do a bunch of 8-12h really remote rides that will require hours and hours of Z3 to complete. Rides like that are a little like gravel races, but without the really hard start. So I'm taking some inspiration from training plans I've seen for Kanza etc. This will likely mean I'll do a lot more tempo riding and virtually no sprint or even shorter VO2 max intervals, as compared with when I was focused on road racing, which tops out at around 5h in P12.

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I don’t think I can bust through the plateau I’m at, almost 56 years old now. I’m happy to be a mid-pack (B) at this point. Zwift totally changed the way I ride. I rode on feeling for ever. That’s not the way to do it. Now that I know my zones, both HR and power, I ride way smarter. 80% in zone 2, 20% in zone 4. Just like Carp mentioned. So most rides are fun, long cruises. And the other rides are shorter but with wicked intensity. I purchased Assiomas Duo power meter pedals at the end of last year, just because of how much Zwift has changed my outlook

Coach at the local Lone Peak Performance has me on this program right now: 3 structured training rides per week + 2 MTB specific hour long strength training sessions. Plus skiing alot.

The first three weeks were building with Monday being 1 hour Z4 interval ride, Wednesday Z2 steady state for 45 mins, and Friday being 90+ minute Z2 LSD ride.

This week is Monday Z4 intervals, today Z2 steady, Friday Z3 sweet spot intervals.

Increasing durations and interval blocks every week.

The Z4s are fucking hard and where I need the most gains for Enduro stages. My V02 max pointed to more of an endurance physiology. I can ride at Z2 for hours and hours if I wanted.

With Zwift you can choose a Route and do a structured workout at the same time for maximum enjoyment and XP.

I am running two monitors, so the flat screen on the wall is a movie or something and the laptop has my Zwift screen.

I am feeling ravaged the last month, but strong and my legs are getting fucking swole. I put on some work slacks this AM for a meeting and they don't fit my quads anymore and they were loose fitting 2 months ago.

Getting the upper body and core now with the MTB strength training in the AMs on Weds and Friday.

Zwift has some really good "FTP Builder" training plans, 4-8 weeks long, tells you what to do each day. I think they are pretty good, actually. It's not a coach, but it's as close as you'll get without hiring someone.

If you have Zwift, the easiest training plan I can think of is to do those. They will have a huge impact.

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

6 riders tonight.
Attachment 362129
Dee Hubbs
jamal (P.L.)
justcuz (K.R.)(late joiner)
Wendigo
EWG (F.T.)
F.Trucker

See ya Thursday at 6:00 EST or next Tuesday at 6:00 MST.
(That’s meant for the new comers or seldom showers.)

just cuz was late (or had technical issues), so when he joined late Zwift put him in the middle of the pack, at pack speed and pack power and Zwift gave him 15 seconds to get his pedals up to speed. (He would have gotten a message up on the screen “pedal assist ending in 14 seconds...”)
Easy to join late, no catch up, no being left behind. We (the pack) will even slow to let you get comfortably up to speed in the pack.
D.H.

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Yes thanks for allowing the late join! This is week two of connectivity issues with zwift. But I’m glad I got to join!


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PSA for the Canucks: Sport Chek has the Tacx Flux S trainer 25% off with their friends and family sale starting today. With the tight supply/demand situation I’m a bit surprised to see it in stock, let alone discounted.

Euro racing season underway on GCN! Currently watching Tour le Provence, shorts and jerseys in the south of France.
Whoop-Whoop

Thanks y'all for your thoughts. I also talked to a friend who has helped coach several teams and a pile of XC, DH, and other riders over the years and helped start a collegiate team at one point. His advice was pretty much "anything you do, if it's focused training or just added volume, is going to make a difference" which seems in alignment with what y'all are saying. I guess I was making the assumption that the amount I ride in the summer should be enough to see some kind of increase... and while I do get the occasional PR on a climb or descent here and there it's not consistent. So... more riding. Indoor when I don't have time or am busy skiing and working, outdoor when I can in the winter and all the time in the summer.

Last night did a Zwift workout, and used it to check off a new route badge as well. 2x15 FTP... wasn't easy. Definitely much more difficult to hold steady power the second half of the second FTP effort. I thought I'd picked a route about the right length to complete while doing the workout... turns out I had to spin for another 10-15 minutes to finish the route. D'oh! I do think the workouts will help keep me engaged with riding more, so I'm gonna check it out. The plan I am interested in is focused on cadence as well as power, so I've got a sensor showing up today and gonna check that out on this afternoon's meetup.

See you gents later in the game!

Definitely worthwhile to add actual workouts into your riding, it's just important to not overdo it. The rest and recovery is a big part of training. Can't just do workouts every day, it's more like once, twice a week, and then your other rides need to be slower. So start with that, ride mostly normally but give yourself a day or two where it's shorter and easier then do a workout.

Important to be fairly well rested going into one. if you're not feeling good and fresh, trying to force a workout is not accomplishing anything. Like last saturday I tried to do a 3x15 workout and only made it 10min into the 2nd one despite picking what I thought was a pretty conservative number. Sunday I did do a 2x20 that went better though..

I've screwed myself over plenty of times where I tried to add workouts to my regular high volume, sort of hard riding to get ready for cyclocross and then just never felt good or got to where I wanted. What I should be doing is taking a little break in august and then actually planning my riding and workouts.

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Originally Posted by EWG

Zwift has some really good "FTP Builder" training plans, 4-8 weeks long, tells you what to do each day. I think they are pretty good, actually. It's not a coach, but it's as close as you'll get without hiring someone.

If you have Zwift, the easiest training plan I can think of is to do those. They will have a huge impact.

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I could be wrong about this, but from what I've looked into on this the Zwift plans are actually not great. Especially the older plans that have been around for a while.

The consensus seems to be that using TrainerRoad or a 3rd party plan that you can plug into Zwift via Training Peaks is going to be better.

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Originally Posted by jamal

Other thing about workouts is that it's important to not overdo it, and the rest and recovery is a big part of training. Can't just do workouts every day, it's more like once, twice a week, and then your other rides need to be slower.

I've screwed myself over plenty of times where I tried to add workouts to my regular high volume, sort of hard riding to get ready for cyclocross and then just never felt good or got to where I wanted. What I should be doing is taking a little break in august and then actually planning my riding and workouts.

In addition to not overdoing it, you also want to be rested going into a workout. if you're not feeling good and fresh, trying to force a workout is not accomplishing anything. Like last saturday I tried to do a 3x15 workout and only made it 10min into the 2nd one despite picking what I thought was a pretty conservative number. Sunday I did do a 2x20 that went better though.

Right now my main worry is overdoing it this early in the year, so I'm trying to not get too anxious about sitting around for a couple days, sticking to mostly low intensity workouts, and not hopping into a bunch of hard group rides and races on zwift. As it is I have a ton more volume and fitness than I usually would right now.

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Don't be a St Patty's day hero! Of all the interval types I've ever done the 2x20s or variants (4x8/10/12, 2x15 whatever) at or near threshold are soo good and soo hard for me. Those 'push' your FTP up vs V02 and the like that pull it up. I'm naturally(?) pretty good at V02 types, so find working on the 2x20s works my weakness. That's another big part of any training plan is to improve your weaknesses, which means doing things you're not comfortable with. All that said don't overdo it and not everyone is the same.

There's something about erg mode too, it doesn't ever let you ease off just for a little bit. I built the workout myself in zwift the other day and thought my number was pretty conservative, as I'd done a good amount more than that for almost the same time recently. But that previous one was in a race on a climb where there was a bit of a break in the middle so it was more like two vo2 efforts. Plus I was a little tired going into it. So for the next day I was like, well, I'd better dial it back even more for the 2x20. Which at the end had me thinking I could have done more, but that's better than not making it.


In other news, had our local series zwift race last night, another 6 weeks. Last week was a time trial, this was pretty short, two laps of london flat. Big group, then some attacks formed a small break toward the end. I hesitated to join as there were teammates in so I could just sit in and make others chase, but the whole group was blowing up and there were a bunch of people strung out up the road and I thought it had a good chance. Surfed my way up there kind of late and then we got caught with like 1k so it was a huge mass going into the sprint. So not great having 3 of us up the road in a small group and then all getting swarmed and finishing kind of far back, plus I'd done a lot of work up to that point and wasn't very heipful in the break. Put down some good numbers though.

This skips forward pretty far, not much happens up to there
https://youtu.be/xsxRP9YAdq8?t=1750

Can’t make it tonight boys, see y’all next week.

I’ll be somewhere in watopia riding mellow, I’m nursing some tendonitis in my knee that just won’t settle down.


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Work call tonight. F'ing work is getting in the way. A lot.

Smoked my legs skiing today, it’s so good back east right now. Couch feels wicked good with the wood stove cranking on a cold evening.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

I could be wrong about this, but from what I've looked into on this the Zwift plans are actually not great. Especially the older plans that have been around for a while.

The consensus seems to be that using TrainerRoad or a 3rd party plan that you can plug into Zwift via Training Peaks is going to be better.

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The only Zwift plans that I'd recommend are the FTP builders. I think they have solid physiology behind them. Others look fairly goofy.

That said, I have nothing against a good third party plan/plugin.

Thursday TGR Meetup, just Dee Hubbs and Full Tucker.
2 hard laps at a set w/kg, a set power for the climbs, and then I bailed after 2 laps. FT spun the legs for a final third lap.
Good to just get on the bike and get moving and earn some XP points.
I’m eying up the Trek Madone once I cross level 20. (I have a spreadsheet)

Sorry no photos tonight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

Thursday TGR Meetup, just Dee Hubbs and Full Tucker.
2 hard laps at a set w/kg, a set power for the climbs, and then I bailed after 2 laps. FT spun the legs for a final third lap.
Good to just get on the bike and get moving and earn some XP points.
I’m eying up the Trek Madone once I cross level 20. (I have a spreadsheet)

Sorry no photos tonight.

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Gotcha covered...

Attachment 362443

Good ride, I tried my best to keep the pace we set for lap three... woof.

I had to work today :( plus feel like ass post yesterday’s vaccination.

I’m trying to collect my 14 days in a row badge so gotta put in a slow 10+km tonight at some point

Anyone have any suggestion for a beginner ( level 9) frame?? I dumped some points into wheels but thinking a frame next. Anything I should be looking at?


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