Freeride World Tour

In perfect pow the top snowboarders in the world absolutely shred as hard as skiers on big ak style faces. Watching any absinthe film will tell you that. In variable conditions they are just at a complete disadvantage only having one edge vs the two of skiers. One edge gets bumped in the air at speed you have nothing for control. Two edges you still have something gripping when one ski gets bucked. Travis rices natural selection final stop in the todrillos including skiers and snowboarders would be all time.


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Originally Posted by toast2266

I sort of agree, but I also appreciate the guys that ski the venue for what it is.

Like, Mumma had that burly double stage air, which was sick. But it was literally the only thing in his line. The venue was just too short to do anything else. And while he skied that line really well, it didn't seem like the best use of the venue. Same goes for Reine, Navarro, and some other guys that went for the more traditional big mountain lines. For this particular venue, I'd rather watch the guys that worked their way through and used the limited terrain to its fullest.

Contrast that with a venue like the bec where I'm not really interested at all in watching some freestyle kid dick around and spend 5 minutes picking his way down the slope doing small 3's on every little feature.

The best guys can do both and adjust their plan of attack for what the venue has to offer.

And on a totally unrelated note, this comp continues to drive the point home that the ski men are in a completely different ballpark than every other category of competitors. The winning men's snowboard line would've barely won the women's ski category. And the women snowboarders look like they're just trying to survive down the venue.

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I just didn’t think any of the specific flips or spins (but for Moga’s) were particularly impressive, too many of them were meandering from move to mediocre move that the teenagers here are pulling under the chair on a daily basis. I don’t know if you caught Goguen’s winning run at the junior Worlds, but that’s the combination of commitment and tricks that makes me take notice. I know the conditions sucked (from watching the snowboarders and the women, who all struggled) but it just seems weird that Palm was scored so highly for skiing at 75% and doing 3 fairly routine airs, though his recovery bounce was cool. He’s obviously a great skier, perhaps he also just knows how to play the game the best.

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Originally Posted by altacoup

Rewatched both Palm and Mogas line and I’m sticking with my opinion. Moga’s line was way better, creative and charging and full freeride. Sure he back slapped but I still preferred it. Ad others have mentioned the judging criteria has changed and I’m more of a fan of Moga’s style. Apparently it’s like figure skating and he missed the required elements of throwing a little 3

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The aspect of landing your jumps cleanly hasn't changed in years. He ticked any required freestyle elements with his front flip. The problem is he wasn't under any sort of control and he sideslipped his way into the first jump (that's the opposite of charging by the way). Palm's run from the avalanche crown to the first bump on the run out was a full 6 seconds faster than Moga's. Palm didn't need his 3 or his backflip to beat Moga.
I like Moga's style better too, and Aymar's. But this wasn't his best effort. His run last year where he crashed on the front flip at the bottom was similar. To Moga's credit, I think he hit rocks on all three of his turns above the front flip this year.

And his run at this comp last year where he placed 2nd was much better. note the much bigger air with a grab and a stomp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmwxeSiAjoA

Some people apparently need this reminder: the FWT judges have made it *extremely* clear that if you're going to huck a cliff or throw a trick, you'd better stick the landing, otherwise backslaps or losses of control are going to be severely punished. This keeps the whole thing from devolving into a huck fest and if anything it tempers the freestyle aspect more than it would otherwise. A 540 or 720 is more difficult by far than a 360 or a backflip but if you don't stomp then tough shit. That's also why tricks that are cleanly executed are rewarded, because it's a higher risk.

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Originally Posted by kootenayskier

I just didn’t think any of the specific flips or spins (but for Moga’s) were particularly impressive, too many of them were meandering from move to mediocre move that the teenagers here are pulling under the chair on a daily basis. I don’t know if you caught Goguen’s winning run at the junior Worlds, but that’s the combination of commitment and tricks that makes me take notice. I know the conditions sucked (from watching the snowboarders and the women, who all struggled) but it just seems weird that Palm was scored so highly for skiing at 75% and doing 3 fairly routine airs, though his recovery bounce was cool. He’s obviously a great skier, perhaps he also just knows how to play the game the best.

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I think Palm definitely had the winning run, but at the same time I don't think he was scored that highly. Giving him an 86, the judges clearly thought someone could beat it. He gave a little bit up by not grabbing a larger piece of his runout air as it was clearly in play for someone else doing the same line.

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Originally Posted by powdork

I think Palm definitely had the winning run, but at the same time I don't think he was scored that highly. Giving him an 86, the judges clearly thought someone could beat it. He gave a little bit up by not grabbing a larger piece of his runout air as it was clearly in play for someone else doing the same line.

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Agreed. I think the judges got the top 3 spots correct. Which wasn't so much because they were utterly mind blowing runs, but more because no one else managed to put anything better together.

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Originally Posted by Atrain505

In perfect pow the top snowboarders in the world absolutely shred as hard as skiers on big ak style faces. Watching any absinthe film will tell you that. In variable conditions they are just at a complete disadvantage only having one edge vs the two of skiers. One edge gets bumped in the air at speed you have nothing for control. Two edges you still have something gripping when one ski gets bucked. Travis rices natural selection final stop in the todrillos including skiers and snowboarders would be all time.


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As a snowboarder this is so true. I do pretty good keeping up with some damn good skiers on Blackcomb on perfect days, but the days where its a bit variable, chundery or unpredictable I have no chance. I also think the FWT doesn't really draw the best talent in snowboarding, or more likely, lots of snowboarders aren't as interested in that style of riding. Being forced to huck cliffs into sketchy landings, or go sledding and film pillows, most talented snowboarders choose the latter, more so than skiers.

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Originally Posted by nortonwhis

As a snowboarder this is so true. I do pretty good keeping up with some damn good skiers on Blackcomb on perfect days, but the days where it’s a bit variable, chundery or unpredictable I have no chance. I also think the FWT doesn't really draw the best talent in snowboarding, or more likely, lots of snowboarders aren't as interested in that style of riding. Being forced to huck cliffs into sketchy landings, or go sledding and film pillows, most talented snowboarders choose the latter, more so than skiers.

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Having skied for over 43 years now and boarded 32 of those, it’s apples and oranges. Landing sideways off hits is a totally odd feeling compared to squaring up and landing. I’ve never been able to hit speeds on my board that I have on skis. And variable conditions sideways hit different than skiing down the fall line.

I personally don’t compare the two disciplines on the same face. You really can’t.

Watched the replay tonight. Zero complaints about the skiing, everyone* was throwing down in marginal conditions. So fun to watch.

* - Except for that one wild card guy, I'm pretty sure I could have skied his line.

Xavier de le Rue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8czOyTRgh6I

I'm neither in the freestyle nor the 'big mountain' camp. I just ike chargers. Some freestyle moves are fully in the spirit of 'charging' as far as I'm concerned. Gorak's fall line backflip in 2020 at Verbier comes to mind. Moga's front flip on Sunday. You can charge and do freestyle moves.

Having said, a lot of the crosscourt freestyle moves tha twe are seeing, off of wind lips etc., are beyond lame IMO. The riders look like they are simply ticking off a box in order to get points and that's exactly what they are doing.

They should have add one more of those judging criteria, green line things, and call it charging. Mumma, Moga, Palm.. they would have gotten a lot of green in the charging category. And skiing technique between the hits would count in the charging category. So nice to see Mumma on his skis, leaning into it. There's too much of that heel smearing style on tour which is weak and frankly embarassing.

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Originally Posted by nortonwhis

As a snowboarder this is so true. I do pretty good keeping up with some damn good skiers on Blackcomb on perfect days, but the days where its a bit variable, chundery or unpredictable I have no chance. I also think the FWT doesn't really draw the best talent in snowboarding, or more likely, lots of snowboarders aren't as interested in that style of riding. Being forced to huck cliffs into sketchy landings, or go sledding and film pillows, most talented snowboarders choose the latter, more so than skiers.

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That's what I meant with " there is". Maybe they are just not in the fwt. [emoji3]

Considering the films in AK: it looks nice, but it looked nice in the late 90s. Skiing in movies and comps looked nice in the late 90s too. People charged back then. But now the movie and comp people look absolutely ridiculously insane. In snowboarding I don't see that absurd Progression.

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Originally Posted by Angle Parking

I
Having said, a lot of the crosscourt freestyle moves tha twe are seeing, off of wind lips etc., are beyond lame IMO. The riders look like they are simply ticking off a box in order to get points and that's exactly what they are doing.

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I think this has more to do with the venue being shorter than anything. There simply aren't enough cliff bands / zones to fit in more than 2 or 3 hits without abandoning the fall line. Take Aymar's run - it was basically a long traverse, then an awesome double cliff drop, and then the runout and that was it. It was great, don't get me wrong, but that's why he was scored a little lower.

The Bec at Verbier, on the other hand, is so long that if you don't stick to the fall line you're going to run out of gas before you get to the bottom. That's why it's such a great venue.

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Originally Posted by TahoeJ

I think this has more to do with the venue being shorter than anything. There simply aren't enough cliff bands / zones to fit in more than 2 or 3 hits without abandoning the fall line.

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Good point. It's a way to stretch out the venue I guess.


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Armanino and Moga were robbed. A few other questionable decisions, including docking Mumma who had an epic line, and also Fin Bilous, who I felt was waaay more creative with the butters, etc.

The judging is so subjective, and skewed toward awarding more points to folks doing tricks on tracked out faces, vs creative lines with bigger risk.

Bring back the Sickbird award. Add the charging category.


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I just rewatched the Juniors stop in Kappl, Austria. Why are the pros skiing on such a smaller face than the JRs (in terms of hittable features)? Kappl looked like it had way more interesting options than the Baciver face. Is it just luck of the draw in terms of snow?

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Originally Posted by SUPERIOR

Armanino and Moga were robbed. A few other questionable decisions, including docking Mumma who had an epic line, and also Fin Bilous, who I felt was waaay more creative with the butters, etc.

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Disagree about Moga - he had quite a few obvious control issues on his run compared to those who scored above him.

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Originally Posted by SUPERIOR

Bring back the Sickbird award. Add the charging category.

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Guessing they did away with the Sickbird to prevent folks from just hucking their meat. I imagine their insurers had a say in this.

It looks like conditions will be similar for Andorra, except more grass on the takeoffs

meanwhile, at mammoth ;-)
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Originally Posted by kootenayskier

I’m 100% with you on Mumma’s pure ripping being the most impressive. To me, most flippy spinny shit is just showboating, that can add “style” to otherwise similar runs, but it’s become the core what’s being judged. What next, perhaps advanced pole juggling or ski ballet moves would also add a very technical element? Since abandoning the line score limitation FWT judging has become impossibly subjective. Still a great spectacle.

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If you can fluidly link some ski ballet into a podium level freeride line you deserve to win. It would be pure batshit insanity to pull off on comp skis on a consequential line.

There's this monster of an idea that is based on "balanced" brilliance which is an excuse to not pick a side whenever the venue, conditions or other circumstances simply favor a specific approach over the others.
That is why there's always been cases of people being "robbed" (mostly directional, charging skiers imo) and also "pressured" into tweaking their own skiing. I am sorry but watching Reine or other directional OGs "learn" these shitty corkscrew-style, arms-wide 3s always made me cringe so fuckin bad. You can always repackage that as "eVoLvInG" but as an adult skier at the top of your game you'll have a comfort zone as everyone else as well as a specific stance on what's stylish to you and what isn't. Learning tricks of that magnitude and in those environments so late will never do you any good. Obviously you can't develop style while doing "spinny shit" if your only focus is to not die while doing those things.

Idk if it's due to FIS looming over but the whole judging system seems even shakier to me. Because I do find that with the excuse of this ideal of figure skating style "precision" they end up disappointing everyone: they disappoint people like myself who value proper freestyle since they have bashed a guy for throwing a (proper) 5 and reverting (the fuck was he supposed to do, straight-line switch to the finish line?). They disappoint people who value good "relatable" technique and who enjoy watching people like vale rainer or leif. And they also end up disappointing the rowdier, send-oriented guys who enjoy Moga and the other showboaters.
They disappoint everyone and they end up enforcing this idea of building these safe "full package" kind of runs which with certain conditions and within certain venues (as other people have said) will inevitably lead to boring 2-hit runs ending with cringey runout with the celebratory pole-swinging.

as far as snowboarding is concerned, I grew up doing it but i don't like watching it on the tour. Other people have explained the reasons very well. I also think that contests are approached differently in board sports. You have jam sessions, best-trick contests,events where in general people let go of this crazy idea of algorithm-ing everything into finding out who's "the best" and end up simply rewarding whoever does some cool shit in that specific moment.
Snowboarding also always emphasized the carefree "filming" aspect of the sport and you can see it in the videos from that era and in the sport's history. That's where talent and overall effort have always gravitated towards .They're all relevant in my eyes but if you compare something like "blizzard of aahs" to Jamie Lynn's part in "The Garden" or some old Johan Olofsson part the differences are astounding.

I'll always watch the fwt because it's fun. I also like watching the ladies ski because some of em rip but in a more "relatable" way. The others are kinda lagging hard but it's ok, it can only improve.

I just hope that FIS doesn't fuck it up because I do not enjoy or trust the inference of these suits-n-ties in so called "free" disciplines.

The whole league thing sounds fun, I'll ask to join

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Originally Posted by oltrepiave

There's this monster of an idea that is based on "balanced" brilliance which is an excuse to not pick a side whenever the venue, conditions or other circumstances simply favor a specific approach over the others.
That is why there's always been cases of people being "robbed" (mostly directional, charging skiers imo) and also "pressured" into tweaking their own skiing. I am sorry but watching Reine or other directional OGs "learn" these shitty corkscrew-style, arms-wide 3s always made me cringe so fuckin bad. You can always repackage that as "eVoLvInG" but as an adult skier at the top of your game you'll have a comfort zone as everyone else as well as a specific stance on what's stylish to you and what isn't. Learning tricks of that magnitude and in those environments so late will never do you any good. Obviously you can't develop style while doing "spinny shit" if your only focus is to not die while doing those things.

Idk if it's due to FIS looming over but the whole judging system seems even shakier to me. Because I do find that with the excuse of this ideal of figure skating style "precision" they end up disappointing everyone: they disappoint people like myself who value proper freestyle since they have bashed a guy for throwing a (proper) 5 and reverting (the fuck was he supposed to do, straight-line switch to the finish line?). They disappoint people who value good "relatable" technique and who enjoy watching people like vale rainer or leif. And they also end up disappointing the rowdier, send-oriented guys who enjoy Moga and the other showboaters.
They disappoint everyone and they end up enforcing this idea of building these safe "full package" kind of runs which with certain conditions and within certain venues (as other people have said) will inevitably lead to boring 2-hit runs ending with cringey runout with the celebratory pole-swinging.

as far as snowboarding is concerned, I grew up doing it but i don't like watching it on the tour. Other people have explained the reasons very well. I also think that contests are approached differently in board sports. You have jam sessions, best-trick contests,events where in general people let go of this crazy idea of algorithm-ing everything into finding out who's "the best" and end up simply rewarding whoever does some cool shit in that specific moment.
Snowboarding also always emphasized the carefree "filming" aspect of the sport and you can see it in the videos from that era and in the sport's history. That's where talent and overall effort have always gravitated towards .They're all relevant in my eyes but if you compare something like "blizzard of aahs" to Jamie Lynn's part in "The Garden" or some old Johan Olofsson part the differences are astounding.

I'll always watch the fwt because it's fun. I also like watching the ladies ski because some of em rip but in a more "relatable" way. The others are kinda lagging hard but it's ok, it can only improve.

I just hope that FIS doesn't fuck it up because I do not enjoy or trust the inference of these suits-n-ties in so called "free" disciplines.

The whole league thing sounds fun, I'll ask to join

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There's like a 30% chance that this was written by chatgpt, but regardless, I agree with all of it.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

There's like a 30% chance that this was written by chatgpt, but regardless, I agree with all of it.

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Hey guys, let's cut the crap and get real here. The FWT has been upping their game by putting a focus on tricks and spins, and I'm all for it. Anyone who's against it is just stuck in the past and can't handle change. Here's why:

First off, tricks and spins are making freeriding way more exciting to watch. The athletes are showing off their skills like never before and it's making the competitions lit. It's sick to see the best freeriders in the world performing death-defying tricks and it's about time the FWT stepped up their game.

Second, tricks are pushing the limits of what's possible in freeriding. The athletes are constantly pushing themselves to perform better and it's getting ridonkulous. It's not only good for the athletes, but for the sport as a whole. It's inspiring a new generation of freeriders who are gonna keep the sport evolving.

Lastly, tricks are attracting a new audience to freeriding. The sport is becoming more accessible to people who may not have been interested in it before. The excitement and spectacle of the competitions are bringing in a new generation of fans who are all about the acrobatics.

In conclusion, anyone who's against the FWT's focus on tricks and spins is just scared of change and can't handle progress. The sport needs to evolve and this is the way to do it. Tricks and spins are making freeriding more exciting, pushing the limits of what's possible, and attracting a new audience. Let's embrace the future and keep freeriding sick.

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Originally Posted by powdork

meanwhile, at mammoth ;-)
Attachment 445452

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Funny joke, PD! Hahaha.

For those who don't know...on the right, with the broad open slopes is McGee Mountain. That's the SE aspect - about 2500' vert to the flats. Wayyyy back in day, Steve Klassen had organized a freeride comp somewhere on that mountain. As a result of avy hazard (I believe), it was moved to that crappy tiny face on Mammoth (not even the Kiwi Flats area). I think this was the comp Cody Townsend won back in 2009 or 2010.

Correction: 2008. Moved due to firm conditions. And Cody didn't win lol. The pic in the first article suggests it was on a more easterly aspect, possibly at top-right of this frame or out of the view further to the right.

https://www.sierrasun.com/news/fickle-freeriding/
https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/20...ing-qualifier/

On the top left is a gnar wall that Nathan Wallace (Cham freerider) named [I think] Wall of the Future. Maybe he meant Wall of the Future FWT comp?!? I think, unfortunately, that the Wall of the Future is in federal Wilderness.

But you can brap to the top of McGee! Maybe even heli!!

Interesting Data, Meter-Man.

I competed in an IFSA one at mammoth in 2002(?). Placed around 12th and didn’t make it to the super finals. But I was glad. Because that venue was scary as shit. I remember 2 or 3 40-60 footers stacked on top of each other with landings the size of kitchen tables that people were dropping onto and stopping on to set up for the next air.

Pure billy-goat skiing in those days. Deuter, Schmitz, or Chicheret probably won that one.

In regards to the changes in the sport, I don’t think anyone is against tricks, per se, but when the aggression score was taken out of the judging, those changes began.

I think it was aggression. Hard to remember.

I think it was—
Line
Aggression
Fluidity
Control

Line set the standard and you couldn’t score higher than your line score in any other category.

Can anyone confirm or add context to how it all changed?

All said— I tune into every event and rarely debate scoring. I don’t fucking know. Sometimes it’s obvious who won. But it’s usually pretty obscure.