GUNS!!!!!!!!

Depends on what you want. You will probably have better luck with a 11.5" that a 10.5" For some reason, the short .223's are 11.5", while the 9mm's are usually 10.5"

I would probably lean toward Colt or Bushmaster. Or go your route and build your own which is always fun too.

Possible sources, JT Distributing, Bushmaster, Rock River, Model 1 Sales, etc. Avoid Olympic Arms. Right now, this stuff is still unobtanium for the most part.

There is a fellow named Dennis Todd that has a ton of factory Colt parts. Hard to beat Colt and Dennis is a good guy. DToddmgREMOVETHISSPAMGARD@AOL.com.

I've done several builds using stuff from JT Distributing. OK stuff, not super high quality, but very functional. Have a 11.5" parts build on my M-16. No-name A3 receiver and Bushy barrel, runs flawlessly and is accurate.

One that gets good reviews is from POF-USA. Very pricey, monolithic design, gas piston.
http://www.pof-usa.com/upper/upper415-6119X.htm

And of course, you could spend mega bucks ($3,000 plus) on an HK upper or one from Knights Armamament if you can find it.

Don't forget, if you are building a rifle with a barrel under 16", you must have in your possession a registered NFA lower before you purchase the upper. Either a Short Barrelled Rifle or a Machine gun. You can build a pistol from a virgin receiver, then install the short upper and be legal. Just don't get caught with an AR-15 and a short upper. ATF considers it "constructive" possession of an unregistered device. Gets you an invitation to Club-Fed for 5 years or so.


Ken

The lower is good to go, full auto. JT Dist. has some pretty inexpensive stuff but by the time you add the BCG and charging handle you're pretty close to the bushamster range and not too far off from noveske. But is the price difference worth it? Also, the noveske and the bushmaster both have 1 in 7 as an option, is that more important for a short barrel or still a bullet weight issue?

What grain bullet are you using? If it is the 62 grain, 1-7 is much better to get it stabalized. Lot of cheap (relatively) steel core 62 grain out there right now.

Give Dennis Todd a call and see what a Colt Commando runs these days.

You will get a better quality upper from Noveske/Bushmaster. Finish will be a little nicer, and may shoot a little better. Big thing for accuracy purposes is getting a BCG mated and headspaced to the barrel.

In short, if you can afford it, upgrade from a JT upper.

Ken

Ken, total gun jong question: What is an NFA lower?

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Originally Posted by CS

Ken, total gun jong question: What is an NFA lower?

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Legit Q. NFA = National Firearms Act which was enacted in 1934 in an attempt to control the gang-land violence. It requires the registration of machine guns, short barreled rifles (SBR), short barreled shotguns (SBS), and "any other weapons" (AOW). Destructive Devices (DD's) also fall into the NFA world. These are also referred to as Title II guns, or sometimes Class III firearms. Title I guns are typical handguns, shotguns and rifles.

Machine gun usually means a firearm capable of firing more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger.

SBR means a rifle with a barrel under 16"

SBS means a shotgun with a barrel under 18"

AOW is all the other creative stuff, like cane guns, pen guns, cell phone guns, semi auto guns in a brief case with external trigger, derringers or other pocket pistols encased in a holster with a cutout for the trigger finger, etc.

DD's are breach loaded rifles with rifling with larger than .50 caliber bore, smooth bore weapons greater than 37mm, like a 40mm grenade launcher, 60mm mortar, etc.

Black powder firearms typically are exempt from all of this.

Class III actually refers to the type of license held by one who can deal in the transfer of Title II weapons.

NFA, Title II, or Class III weapons are generically used to include all of these things.

Ken

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Ah, thanks Ken. Basically they are all things I can only dream of owning legally in California.

True. As said in a famous movie, Run, Forest, Run

Question for the gun mags:

Has anyone ever been involved in raffling firearms? How did you go about it?

I don't know much about this stuff, but it seems that the raffle would need to be for a gun that was held by an FFL holder (the group doing the auction isn't licensed), and the raffle basically just gives the winner the ability to get the gun free of charge from that dealer after filling out the appropriate paperwork. Also, the sale of tickets would need to be restricted to those eligible to purchase the gun (i.e. rules are clearly stated so ineligible purchasers just get DQ'd).

Any other thoughts or things that I'm missing?

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Originally Posted by toast2266

Question for the gun mags:

Has anyone ever been involved in raffling firearms? How did you go about it?

I don't know much about this stuff, but it seems that the raffle would need to be for a gun that was held by an FFL holder (the group doing the auction isn't licensed), and the raffle basically just gives the winner the ability to get the gun free of charge from that dealer after filling out the appropriate paperwork. Also, the sale of tickets would need to be restricted to those eligible to purchase the gun (i.e. rules are clearly stated so ineligible purchasers just get DQ'd).

Any other thoughts or things that I'm missing?

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Toast-

A few ways to do raffles. If it is one or a few firearms the way we do it is to transfer, same as if they were buying them, the guns to you or whomever is running the raffle. They can then display them where the want as the raffle is going, a day or week or months. Then when the winner is chosen, who ever did the paperwork the first time brings it back to the dealer. We log it back in, same as if we bought it from you or you traded it, then the winner does the paperwork and is on their way. We do many of these with every thing from boy scouts, bars, Vol. Fire Dept etc.
we also do large one night banquets, Ducks Unltd. for example. These guns can be transfered on a temporary basis to a representative of said group. We, as the FFL, dealer go to the event do paperwork at the event. This is usually upwards of 40 firearms in one night. P.M me and I can answer more specific questions.

_Dan

Cool, thanks Dan. That's definitely helpful. I'm sort of on the fringes of this thing, so I'm not sure I have more specific questions at the moment - I don't really know any details of the raffle, but am trying to help out where possible. I'll shoot you a PM if specific questions arise.

Raffles constitute gambling. Some states allow raffles for not for profits. In Tennessee, however, this is still illegal gambling even for a not for profit. There are some limited exceptions.

Point is to check to see if allowed to start with. Then Dan's got you covered from there. My suggestion is to circulate pics and a description. Or get the dealer to come to the drawing.

Yeah, the raffle itself is not a problem - I've got that part of it reasonably figured out (just some pretty broad restrictions here in MT). I just don't know much about the sale / transfer of firearms other than the basics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TNKen

Raffles constitute gambling. Some states allow raffles for not for profits. In Tennessee, however, this is still illegal gambling even for a not for profit. There are some limited exceptions. .

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Haha... ever been to a gas station in Montana? Gambling is certainly allowed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loon

The HK417: If I wanted to spend the $3-4K for the rifle, lived in a machine gun friendly state, was willing to spend the extra $200 fill out form 4 and wait for the BTAF to process the paperwork. Are there really dealers that can get thier hands on these?

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

You can't get a full auto rifle for 3 or 4K, and you don't need a form 4 for a semi auto rifle.

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So what if money was no object? I'm basicly asking if this rifle is obtainable (legally) for a civilian. and for the record I know a few guys who have purchase full auto weapons for less than 3K.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loon

So what if money was no object? I'm basicly asking if this rifle is obtainable (legally) for a civilian. and for the record I know a few guys who have purchase full auto weapons for less than 3K.

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The HK417 is not available for purchase by civilians, in either full auto or semi auto configuration.

Even if HK were to decide to sell the semi auto version to civilians, it cannot be imported for civilian sale due to the fact that it does not consitute a rifle for "sporting purposes" and therefore must contain a specified number of US made parts, which it does not. This is a result of a law enacted in the early 90's to prevent the importation of non-sporting purpose rifles such as AK 47's.

If money were no object, an ordinary civilian could open a gun shop, obtain a federal firearms license (FFL), apply for and receive a special occupation taxpayer (SOT) certificate to buy and sell title II firearms, apply for an HK distributorship or find an HK417 in another dealer's inventory, obtain a demonstration letter from a qualified law enforcement agency stating that they wanted an HK417 to be demonstrated to them, arrange for the purchase of the rifle from HK, file the required paperwork and demonstration letter with ATF, wait for approval, take delivery of the rifle, demonstrate the rifle to the LEO agency, then you could keep the rifle until you surrender your SOT certificate, at which time you must dispose of the rifle by sale or destruction.

At the moment on the retail market of knowledgable buyers and sellers, there isn't but one full auto firearm that is sometimes available for under 3k. That would be a Mac 10 or Mac 11. About $2,800 is the absolute floor on these now. There are a couple of guns running in the mid $4,000 range (Sten), and from there, it jumps to about $6,500-7,500 for an Uzi or Sterling. Generic M-16's are in the $10,000 range, while Colt M-16A1's are around $13,500-$15,000. 1919 belt feds are in the $14,000 range. And the top of the line are transferrable FG-42's and M134 Miniguns in the $140,000 range.

Ken

I hope Taurus makes a decent 1911, I now own one. I went to Cabela's planning on buying a Springfield Armory, they didn't have one and the Taurus caught my eye.

http://www.outdoorsinutah.com/1911.jpg

Heading out to the desert tomorrow to try it out. We went out there last weekend and shot the .308.

If you look close you can see a spent casing heading towards the camera:

http://www.outdoorsinutah.com/hallowdesert.jpg


A shot of my rifle:

http://www.outdoorsinutah.com/hallowdesert1.jpg

Hope you never have to send the Taurus in for any work. They have easily the worst customer service around. It took them 10 months to replace a defective recoil rod on a gun I used to own. The gun functioned and shot fine up until the spring started popping out and I had to send it in. Shot and functioned fine after I finally got it back too, but man that is some shitty cs.


I wanna get a .45 tho too. Looking at an FN-P45. I've got an FN-P9 and it rocks. Actually, that's what replaced the Taurus.

Good thing about 1911's, if they are a true copy, tons of smiths to work on them.

Ken

Thought this was a good place to put this. . . . .
Shootin Zombies in Vegas


and yes, i suck at shooting, but you gotta start somewhere

I'd been eyeing the Springfield Armory GI stainless. I went to Cabela's hoping they'd have one, my wife had given me the go-ahead and I was coming home with one regardless.

They didn't have any of the Springfield models, but like I said the Taurus caught my eye. The Taurus had an ambi safety (I'm a lefty), a larger beavertail and speed bump on the grip safety, a lengthened mag release button, dovetailed Heinie three dot sites, 8 round mag, skeletonized trigger, rosewood grips (with black plastic grips included in the case), knurled front and rear grip areas, grip serrations on the front of the barrel slide, and a good feeling trigger. It came in a hundred bucks over what I'd budgeted, but I thought it was worth it.

When I got home last night I pored over the internet reading every review on the gun I could find, yeah I know, kind of a backwards way to shop. But, it seemed that for the most part folks liked the gun. Just like the conclusion I'd come to most thought it was a good bargain for the price.

I took it out to the desert today and took it for a drive. I ended up shooting 7 mags through it. The thing performed flawlessly, from the first round to the last it never had a hiccup. I'm not a great pistol shot yet, but they seemed to go where it was pointed at.

So far I'm happy, and hopefully I never have any problems, if so I'll probably take Ken's advice and just pay someone to fix it.

Looks like Sako is resurrecting the Tikka 595 with the new T3 Sporter!:

http://www.sakosuomi.fi/tuotteet/etusivu/t3_sporter.jpg

These better make it over here to N. America!



Speaking of which I was shooting the Tikka this morning at the range and was once again asked if I was in the military. I have really long hair and a beard. :confused: I get asked this all the time and I purposely only go to ranges at odd hours (like Monday morning) so I don't have to talk to a bunch of dumbfucks. Unless it's a match or something, inevitably some guy comes up and asks me this. Do you guys get this too? Maybe the beard, but I never see any military personel with a long ass ponytail. Or driving a truck with a gay pride sticker. Lots of guys around here shoot AKs and ARs - I never hear any of them get asked this. And a lot of times it's some guy shooting an AR with ten do-dads bolted to the quad-rails that askes me.

Man that T3 Sporter better get to the American market. RAD!!!!!

Looked at some guns today. In short, Ken, I decided not to go with a tactical platform like an AR or otherwise--they're just not for me.
So it's between:

Remington 700 VTR .223--loved the balance and fit. Vents on a .223 seems dumb and the triangle thing seemed hokey, though I did like the weight.

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...l-700-vtr.aspx

Savage 10 GYXP3 .223 -- I love my Savage 30-06 and really dug the accutrigger on this guy. Seemed like a great value for an all-around fun gun.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10GYXP3

Marlin XLR 336 in 30-30--What can I say? I'm a sucker for lever actions and this thing is beautiful. Would make a fun, sporting deer gun, too. Wouldn't be as fun at the range as the above guns, though. But irons sights are a fun option and I love simplicity.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/xlr/336.asp

That's it so far...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loon

So what if money was no object? I'm basicly asking if this rifle is obtainable (legally) for a civilian. and for the record I know a few guys who have purchase full auto weapons for less than 3K.

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You could get yourself a legally owned full auto lower, or a registered sear to put in your lower and POSSIBLY get yourself an hk 416 upper, I have heard tell uppers have been (very) sporadically available to civilians, but such things are pretty much guaranteed to be grey market, which means, they arent flat out illegal, but since HK wont ever sell to civilians, chances are, it was stolen somewhere along the way, in order to get into your hands. Maybe not though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jer

Speaking of which I was shooting the Tikka this morning at the range and was once again asked if I was in the military. I have really long hair and a beard. :confused: I get asked this all the time and I purposely only go to ranges at odd hours (like Monday morning) so I don't have to talk to a bunch of dumbfucks. Unless it's a match or something, inevitably some guy comes up and asks me this. Do you guys get this too? Maybe the beard, but I never see any military personel with a long ass ponytail. Or driving a truck with a gay pride sticker. Lots of guys around here shoot AKs and ARs - I never hear any of them get asked this. And a lot of times it's some guy shooting an AR with ten do-dads bolted to the quad-rails that askes me.

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Hahaha, a few weeks ago some random high school kids that were out 4 wheeling stumbled upon me shooting out in the desert. The only things they saw me shoot were a scoped bolt action .22, a .22 revolver, and then when I was plinking at 150 yards with my 9mm sig, they asked me if I was a cop or something. This would be funnier for anyone who has met me/seen the old POS subaru I drive. I wasnt even really hitting what I was aiming at either.


Mr. Floater, there are lots of other semi autos out there besides AR's. I'm not a fan of the AR platform for a few reasons, but mostly cus they just never felt right to me.

Look into the FNAR rifles. despite having AR in it, they're actually just rebuilt BAR hunting rifles. Semi auto, accurate, and TACTICAL!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jer

Maybe the beard, but I never see any military personel with a long ass ponytail.

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Lots of special ops guys rock this look these days.

Here's an POF 416 upper 11.5" for sale for $1,200

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nf...gi?read=132696