To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

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Originally Posted by old_newguy

If you would stop bringing up things from a year ago like they are still relevant, people would stop treating you like you are stuck in time. Your talking points match up very closely with the disinformation campaigns that are going on, so perhaps you should take a step back and think about why people put you in that category.

There is a very interesting discussion going on around the actual science here.

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Its almost like the info from 2 years was contextually different (and qualified) than how the situation evolved and, for some reason, he's ignoring all the messaging and refinement since then. Completely disingenuous given the steady stream of rhetoric and disinformation from the denier camp.

It's TFG tactic - find a single instance where it may be plausible that your opponent may have done something that sort of matches your endless stream of lies: "see we're all liars". Find that false equivalency at all costs.

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Originally Posted by The AD

Here's a hint: if your latest example of Democratic misinformation comes from last October (Harris on vaccines) you're probably grasping at straws a bit. Not to defend those statements, but it's pretty clear they were just part of the Presidential campaign posturing and it should be noted the tenor was that they aren't going to listen to Trump about the vaccines, but rather the scientific community. To me that's a significant difference.

The other examples from February 2020 are just lame. Of course they were wrong at the time. People make mistakes, but hopefully they realize these mistakes and make corrections. The people you need to worry about are those who are so steadfast in their convictions that no amount of contrary evidence can sway them.

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So hypothetically if trump had won, he'd have taken credit for the vaccine and the blue states would be in full lockdown adamantly refusing the vaccine and the red states would still be open and highly vaccinated.

crazy world we live in.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

O rly? I haven't said shit against the vaccine since Biden/Harris did too. When's the last time I've said anything against the vaccine? Hmm? When's the last time I've contradicted "teh science"?

https://c.tenor.com/fyylSNGrZ80AAAAd/well-waiting.gif

Usually, when I point stuff out against the narrative here, it's to point out hypocrisy in the establishment who tell us we need to do XYZ, whilst flaunting said advice over the course of the pandemic. But then THAT'S considered "misinformation" too.

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While you may like to reframe what you are doing as being anti-establishment (which is amusing that you go after certain “establishment” figures, yet seem to omit a litany of others who are doing one thing while telling their constituents to do another and watching them die) When viewed in its entirety, that’s not what you are doing. I’m not going to go pull some single sentence out of your posting history as some sort of gotcha. Your posts speak for themselves.

The experts in this thread like Mofro, Multiverse, etc have done more to counter the “establishment” (let’s just flip your definition for a second to point right instead of left) narrative and hypocrisy against masks, vaccinations and other public health measures than you can ever hope.

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

Pfizer had EUA in December 2020. How much more debate do you think should be allowed and why should debate be prioritized over taking immediate action (read: mandates) that would undoubtedly save lives, prevent morbidity, and save money? Do you think more debate would result in something close to universal agreement on mandates?

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Obviously universal agreement on mandates is not a goal. Universal agreement on vaccines would be easier to achieve and result in faster vaccination. Both are impossible. But mandates are a means to an end and whether they are the most effective means has not been established. Mandates feed the narratives of the lunatics and the fence sitters see that. Whether we net more jabs is the question and in some parts of the country I think we will not.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

OMG. That's quite LITERALLY exactly what I was saying at the time too. But I got bashed for wanting to wait for more data. See my point? When certain people like them say something, they're being "scientific" with their approach. So wise. So bold. When I say quite literally the same thing, it's going against "teh SiEnTS!"

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This isn't the "bash MontuckyFried" thread even if you feel that it might be at times, so maybe you should just move on and stop trying to defend yourself.

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Originally Posted by jono

Obviously universal agreement on mandates is not a goal. Universal agreement on vaccines would be easier to achieve and result in faster vaccination. Both are impossible. But mandates are a means to an end and whether they are the most effective means has not been established. Mandates feed the narratives of the lunatics and the fence sitters see that. Whether we net more jabs is the question and in some parts of the country I think we will not.

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I tend to agree with jono that the mandates may have the unintended effect of hardening the anti-COVID vaccination mentality and it may in fact spread to other vaccinations we currently consider as routine.

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Originally Posted by Carl_Mega

I'm going to concede that this guy is between a rock and a hardplace. His nutty Lt. Gov is playing the game and undermining him. Personally, I'd think the welfare of his citizens might warrant more than just deferring to local gov't and his messaging but he could lose the whole game with a wrong political move that loses his seat to the dipshit Lt. Gov.

I could nitpick but there legitimate bad-faith players who deserve the scorn. That said, his state is in crisis mode and clearly cannot provide for its citizens using their own resources.

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There's definitely some legit nitpicking.

Setting ID's governor aside, this. Every word.

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Originally Posted by Carl_Mega

...we have people that are being purposely adversarial to bettering our situation - virtually at all costs....until it's too late. Further, the standard is to use disinformation to undermine any effective means.... this includes:

COVID denial
COVID downplay
COVID as a ruse for "new world order"
Mask downplay
Baseless mask 'risks'
Distancing downplay
badfaith zero-sum game position pitting COVID/measures vs. Liberty, Economics, your health
Vaccines don't work
Vaccines are worse than the disease
Vaccines as a nefarious mechanism for trans human / tracking / dna modifier - outlandish conspiracy
Vaccinated vs. unvaxed as equal risks/transmission/outcome
Conspiracy that leads to some other remedy being denied to us
Natural immunity as a viable "out" of the situation
Political boogey-manship - some authority is out to get you
Players who know the dangers, risks and best course of action but lean into the denier narrative for tribal wins
Hypocrites who take protective measures themselves but preach non-compliance for political gamesmanship: foreign actors, financial opportunists, political hacks

I've mentioned before - actual policy discussion is a good thing. Bad-faith posturing, backed by disinformation obfuscation is the opposing narrative norm. I'd love to see it some other way but the benevolent, principled libertarian strawman you present simply isn't representative enough to even enter the conversation - it's used as another ploy... an additional 'what if....." to give legitimacy to those who deserve none.

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At this point, vaccination is just another front in the culture war. I could drive around and tell you people's vax status from their bumper stickers, lawn signs, and tee shirts. Reasoned consideration is over - that is, if it ever existed. American exceptionalism alright...

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Originally Posted by jono

Obviously universal agreement on mandates is not a goal. Universal agreement on vaccines would be easier to achieve and result in faster vaccination. Both are impossible. But mandates are a means to an end and whether they are the most effective means has not been established. Mandates feed the narratives of the lunatics and the fence sitters see that. Whether we net more jabs is the question and in some parts of the country I think we will not.

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Put a timeline on it. How much more talking do you think is reasonable before mandates are put in place? It's been 9 months since the first vaccine was available.

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Originally Posted by old_newguy

I tend to agree with jono that the mandates may have the unintended effect of hardening the anti-COVID vaccination mentality and it may in fact spread to other vaccinations we currently consider as routine.

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perhaps

this is the modern conundrum:
facts can't be abandoned to stroke the egos of the ones slurping up disinformation.
and, unless confronted with the errors very directly, the misinformed just keep on keeping on, often dismissing politely-delivered correcting info...which is fine unless it affects others

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Setting ID's governor aside, this. Every word.



At this point, vaccination is just another front in the culture war. I could drive around and tell you people's vax status from their bumper stickers, lawn signs, and tee shirts. Reasoned consideration is over - that is, if it ever existed. American exceptionalism alright...

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These seem relevant.

Attachment 385662Attachment 385664

Idaho, where there is no mask mandate, we're in statewide crisis care, 50% vaccine rate, there are no ICU beds available, our top export is sick people, our GOP Lt. Gov is standing on the steps of the capital building saying PRIVATE businesses are taking away freedoms, we just appointed an anti-vax testing facility owner to our CDH, and we're going forward with a 30,000 in-person football game this weekend and a 20,000 person music festival next week all within a mile of my house.

I expect the ridicule.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

OMG. That's quite LITERALLY exactly what I was saying at the time too. But I got bashed for wanting to wait for more data. See my point? When certain people like them say something, they're being "scientific" with their approach. So wise. So bold. When I say quite literally the same thing, it's going against "teh SiEnTS!"

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Can you provide an example of you saying the same thing? Apart from you saying kids are different, which is also the FDA's current position, the only thing I could find is you claiming vaccines were causing strokes in young women and saying the Tuskegee experiments shows we can't trust Covid vaccines. Those aren't examples of you saying LITERALLY exactly the same thing at the time.

Whereas to use your mask example, while you were telling everyone about your friends who'd rather die than take any precautions folks here were discussing how the CDC's recommendations on masks at the time were wrong.

There's a German word 'Bildungsphilister' or dogma-prone newspaper reader that defines why you receive so much push back. MontuckyFried = Bildungsphilister, a person who takes politics literally and science metaphorically rather than the reverse, for example.

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Originally Posted by Skidog

I think the point is obesity is a killer in America. Costs lives. Not covid like cause it doesn't transmit..

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Damn. I wasnt even going to wait for the mandate to get the fatshot.


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Originally Posted by Mazderati

Put a timeline on it. How much more talking do you think is reasonable before mandates are put in place? It's been 9 months since the first vaccine was available.

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Depends

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

Put a timeline on it. How much more talking do you think is reasonable before mandates are put in place? It's been 9 months since the first vaccine was available.

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took years for everyone with measles I think (4 or 5)....not that this makes it better or worse, but thats how it went. 9 months is short really.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

At this point, vaccination is just another front in the culture war. I could drive around and tell you people's vax status from their bumper stickers, lawn signs, and tee shirts. Reasoned consideration is over - that is, if it ever existed. American exceptionalism alright...

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Imagine if an arbiter could be brought in from some other planet who hasn't previously heard about Covid. "Let's see, there's a global pandemic with over 225 million cases worldwide that's killed (conservatively) 4.5 million people so far. Effective vaccines have been developed and in use for over a year with close to six billion doses administered. Um, what's the question again? Beam me up, Scotty!"

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Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick

Damn. I wasnt even going to wait for the mandate to get the fatshot.


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me either....they need to work on it cause i like beer and good food too much.

I want to see some solid benefit-cost analyses of mandates versus no mandates. People will get vaxed if it’s mandated. They won’t be happy about it, but it’ll drastically change the current situation. There’s gotta be some good ways to mitigate the potential costs of pissing people off that are forced to vax.

A guided dose of lsd/mdma should be considered :D

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Originally Posted by jono

Depends

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You must love to hear your keyboard click.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Idaho, where there is no mask mandate, we're in statewide crisis care, 50% vaccine rate, there are no ICU beds available, our top export is sick people, our GOP Lt. Gov is standing on the steps of the capital building saying PRIVATE businesses are taking away freedoms, we just appointed an anti-vax testing facility owner to our CDH, and we're going forward with a 30,000 in-person football game this weekend and a 20,000 person music festival next week all within a mile of my house.

I expect the ridicule.

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The ethics of this are fraught, but…

I’m currently leaving in favor of my governor preserving our hospital capacity to perform surgeries and routine procedures for people with life threatening conditions like cancer, emergencies from day to day activities, strokes, etc if that means stopping unvaccinated cases at the border.

I mean, it’s not even ridicule at this point, your states policies are actively harming people in other states.

I know this doesn’t work long term because we may certainly need assistance and cross state border surge capacity as well and how do you filter out those who can get the vaccine from those that can’t, etc

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Originally Posted by bennymac

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Didn't take a couple years...

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Didn't take a couple years...

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How many vulnerable people did they spread it to before succumbing to the consequences of their own actions? How many other peoples cancer surgeries did they delay because “freedom”?

These questions will be ignored by the shitstains in here who will instead climb up on their high horses and pull out their hair crying “why are you guys celebrating the deaths of the unvaxxed? You selfish assholes! Why can’t you be morally righteous like me? Why can’t everyone’s opinion be valued the same?”

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Originally Posted by old_newguy

The ethics of this are fraught, but…

I’m currently leaving in favor of my governor preserving our hospital capacity to perform surgeries and routine procedures for people with life threatening conditions like cancer, emergencies from day to day activities, strokes, etc if that means stopping unvaccinated cases at the border.

I mean, it’s not even ridicule at this point, your states policies are actively harming people in other states.

I know this doesn’t work long term because we may certainly need assistance and cross state border surge capacity as well and how do you filter out those who can get the vaccine from those that can’t, etc

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if it weren't cruel, it'd be a satisfying time to say, "no, bootstrap this yourself & take care of your own...state's rights = state's responsibilities"