To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

You get that as more information is known that we change our views on these things?

---

Perhaps you need to repeat first grade, because you obviously can't read. Literally from your quote of me:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Not that science hasn't changed as we learned more. I get that.

---

I know it's impossible to convey things properly over the interwebs when you obviously don't read posts in their entireties, but I was NOT making the case against mask use or vaccines. I'm simply trying to explain why the public trust for the government just isn't where it could be on this topic. Inconsistent message from the beginning goes a long way toward that end. "Get vaccinated so you don't have to wear a mask!" Cool. Got both shots. Now what? 2 minutes later: "JK LOL." - "Masks won't do a thing." Ok. "Oh wait. Nevermind. We were lying. They're super duper important." - "Be more worried about the flu." Ok. "Oh shit. Nvrmnd. Ends up Covid's pretty bad." - "Stay at home, wear a mask, and don't ever see your friends again. No beaches for you." Ok. Makes sense I guess. "Lol. Just me and the boys chillin' at da French Laundry. No masks or distancing for us!" Wait, wut?!

What clearly isn't helping either is the political polarization of our country. Both sides are guilty of this. Trump says "Vaccine's coming out soon." Kamala says "If Donald Trump says to take it, then I'm not taking it." Biden himself warned against the rushing of a vaccine, did he not? The hesitancy wasn't purely right-leaning as you may believe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Biden himself warned against the rushing of a vaccine, did he not? The hesitancy wasn't purely right-leaning as you may believe.

---

Wait, I thought that was just Biden and the deep state stealing the launch of the vaccines from der fuhrer.. so IQ45 would lose his erection..

Bobby Stainless sells Ferraris. I still like Ferraris.

“Politicians lie or bend the truth and that confuses the situation!”

also says “Texas and Florida are doing just fine!”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

I know it's impossible to convey things properly over the interwebs when you obviously don't read posts in their entireties, but I was NOT making the case against mask use or vaccines. I'm simply trying to explain why the public trust for the government just isn't where it could be on this topic. Inconsistent message from the beginning goes a long way toward that end. "Get vaccinated so you don't have to wear a mask!" Cool. Got both shots. Now what? 2 minutes later: "JK LOL." - "Masks won't do a thing." Ok. "Oh wait. Nevermind. We were lying. They're super duper important." - "Be more worried about the flu." Ok. "Oh shit. Nvrmnd. Ends up Covid's pretty bad." - "Stay at home, wear a mask, and don't ever see your friends again. No beaches for you." Ok. Makes sense I guess. "Lol. Just me and the boys chillin' at da French Laundry. No masks or distancing for us!" Wait, wut?!

What clearly isn't helping either is the political polarization of our country. Both sides are guilty of this. Trump says "Vaccine's coming out soon." Kamala says "If Donald Trump says to take it, then I'm not taking it." Biden himself warned against the rushing of a vaccine, did he not? The hesitancy wasn't purely right-leaning as you may believe.

---

You are understating the role of propaganda. Propagandists create disinformation by taking advantage of the children's game of telephone: 1) Scientists and researchers provide deep background knowledge within their areas of expertise emphasizing accuracy & uncertainty including caveats over concrete conclusions. 2) Writers and journalists grasp and choose to highlight what they think is important while also taking dramatic license to elevate entertainment. 3) Finally, there's what the nonexpert reader takes away.

To use your example "Be more worried about the flu," what was actually conveyed back in February 2000 is that while the flu presents a greater immediate risk, and even though the SARS2 risk is low right now, that could change ... this could evolve into a global pandemic.

People heedlessly repeating political messaging are a big part of the problem because you reinforce misinformation like "Be more worried about the flu" while leaving out "this could evolve into a global pandemic."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by old_newguy

I wish the Montucky/mtu /etc pushing their distrust narrative would realize that they are viewed as the ones who are dishonest, uneducated and untrustworthy and that the rest of us are sick of it.

---

The stock response to this is:

Everyone is awful, I’m just honest about it.

Rolleyes

It’s an impenetrable psychological superstructure of circular reasoning around a core of nonsense.

At the end of the day (yes everyone hates that phrase).. At the end of the day.. probably 90% of everyone pro vaccine still would be vaxxed if Trump had been declared the winner. Add in 100% of the folks bellyaching about their free dumb right now, In short. We'd do it for you (and everyone else) but you won't do it for us (and everyone else)..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

"Get vaccinated so you don't have to wear a mask!" Cool. Got both shots. Now what? 2 minutes later: "JK LOL." - "Masks won't do a thing." Ok. "Oh wait. Nevermind. We were lying. They're super duper important." - "Be more worried about the flu." Ok. "Oh shit. Nvrmnd. Ends up Covid's pretty bad." - "Stay at home, wear a mask, and don't ever see your friends again. No beaches for you." Ok. Makes sense I guess. "Lol. Just me and the boys chillin' at da French Laundry. No masks or distancing for us!" Wait, wut?!

---

JFC dude. You’re still wondering why people dogpile on you and call you a dipshit? This is why. You start with the recent past, go to the start of the pandemic, fast forward to the middle, go back to the start, then end with an irrelevant event. Absolute incoherence.

Yes, our government and power structure is bad, does bad shit multiple times per second 24/7/365/perpetuity. Dipshits like yourself fall in line with all that evil shit everyday, but getting vaccinated to stop a pandemic that is blind and affects everyone is the hill you’re going to die on to prove that the government lied to you? Why? Because it’s the only thing in your power to control?

You’re so bad at trying to dunk on people, it’s really pathetic. Log off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Asshole.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
;-)

---

Guilty as charged! :)

I hope MF and other genuine posters that are stuck on the misinformation train understand that my assholeness comes from being frustrated. I actually think MF is probably a good dude, however misguided his views may be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

Guilty as charged! :)

I hope MF and other genuine posters that are stuck on the misinformation train understand that my assholeness comes from being frustrated. I actually think MF is probably a good dude, however misguided his views may be.

---

We're all good dudes and dames until we start discussing who should be President and what socioeconomic policies our nation should support. No talking politics while having fun is a rule I try to stick to.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9446f5b49e.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

discussing who should be President and what socioeconomic policies our nation should support. No talking politics while having fun is a rule I try to stick to.

---

Man, if we were really discussing policy approaches we'd be in a good place. We can't even agree on basic, demonstrable facts of reality - sky is blue level shit. Nutters (who are many) are talking blood rituals, vast, ridiculous conspiracy and assigning Satanism for their perceived political foes. Literal fucking witches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennymac

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9446f5b49e.jpg

---

Who would want to take a chance with that DNA? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennymac

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9446f5b49e.jpg

---

https://c.tenor.com/mv8WDfaaqZkAAAAC...rmind-meme.gif

Attachment 385561

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jono

Bobby Stainless sells Ferraris. I still like Ferraris.

---

Bobby is a pathological salesman, buddy lies like a rug, I don't see the point in talking to someone who sez things you can't believe in normal conversation that isnt a sales deal but you go for it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennymac

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9446f5b49e.jpg

---

Is it just me or does that look like tRump with a wig? My photoshop recognition skills are admittedly lacking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

A booster definitely cuts the risk of infection and I think they should be made available because it's not a zero sum game. We can do boosters and provide vaccines to the third world. As far as which type Moderna wants a half-shot booster, Pfizer a full shot. The mix and match studies suggest an mRNA shot after an adenovirus vector shot might provide an even better response, but not the other way around. Higher Moderna efficacy probably has more to do with dosage and interval than anything else. Otherwise the differences are minimal.


But it's also important to recognize we're talking about infection, not disease—protection against disease remains high. Because the Delta wave in the United States is so bad right now a lot of people are feeling a loss of control. I think that's why we're seeing all these conspiracy theories, all the distrust of health-care providers, and as a result people are withdrawing from what we know works.

In spite of waning immunity and reduced effectiveness, the vaccines still work. Effectiveness against infection and effectiveness against disease are apples and oranges.

---

Given the current state of the pandemic--people without covid dying for lack of an ICU bed--preventing disease but not infection isn't good enough. Even though the vaccinated aren't spreading infection nearly as much as the nonvaxed, at this point every thing that can be done to prevent infection helps. Maybe if everyone were vaccinated third doses wouldn't be necessary. Likewise under 12's. Looking at the risk/benefit ratio for the individual vaccinee isn't good enough--the benefit has to include reducing the chance of infecting someone at higher risk for disease and of increasing transmission in general.
Sounds like FDA approval is months away, at least. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...young-children
Worth remembering that the great majority of vaccines are given to children.

^ I'm not so much arguing for or against boosters as I am pointing out vaccines provide long lasting protection against severe disease. Vaccines protect your lungs even if you are reinfected.

There's a lot of nuance and a lot of people are saying they don't want to get vaccinated because what's the point if you're going to have to do it all over again every six months. In additional to the unvaccinated, there are still have a lot of people who aren't fully vaccinated, who have only had one dose. For a lot of people the booster talk is making things worse. It's adding to the confusion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bodywhomper

What’s the over/under on reinfection for the unvaxed? I’ve read many accounts of people being catching it twice. Is there literature on the severity of the reinfected? Currently, is it possibly to become a recurring cycle if variants become more infectious, or immunity wains enough, etc.?

---

- Though protection against reinfection wanes with time both natural immunity and vaccines give excellent long term protection against severity.

- Despite Delta, severe Covid-19 is much rarer among previously infected or vaccinated and rarer still for healthy individuals. Almost all of the severe reinfection cases occur among the infirm elderly.

- Multiple large cohort studies show after up to 10 months vaccinated individuals & previously infected with SARS2 on average have about an 80% reduction in the odds of a reinfection.

Edit: - Identifiable cases and contact tracing cluster analysis of reinfection infecting others shows it happening much less frequently.

- There are many reports of long haulers resolving symptoms after vaccination. This is being actively studied and we should see results soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennymac

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9446f5b49e.jpg

---

https://c.tenor.com/3qV0YQvnH08AAAAC...y-throw-up.gif

https://i.gifer.com/origin/21/21be8e...d9004_w200.gif

https://c.tenor.com/ixdajtdiTo8AAAAM...erica-sick.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

- Though protection against reinfection wanes with time both natural immunity and vaccines give excellent long term protection against severity.

- Despite Delta, severe Covid-19 is much rarer among previously infected or vaccinated and rarer still for healthy individuals. Almost all of the severe reinfection cases occur among the infirm elderly.

- Multiple large cohort studies show after up to 10 months vaccinated individuals & previously infected with SARS2 on average have about an 80% reduction in the odds of a reinfection.

- While this doesn't mean it isn't happening, and for now we should assume it's possible, there isn't a single identifiable case of a reinfection infecting others.

- There are many reports of long haulers resolving symptoms after vaccination. This is being actively studied and we should see results soon.

---

Thanks for the response. interesting about no identified cases of those that are reinfected not infecting others.

If I remember right, in that interview that i posted upthread by dr. damania of dr. gandhi, she was referring to herself as vaccinated asymptomatic reinfected. I believe she meant that she was currently infected, but i find it interesting that she is referring to herself as "reinfected," meaning, I believe, that her initial infection was via the vax.

ok montucky...you made me laugh

well done

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

^ I'm not so much arguing for or against boosters as I am pointing out vaccines provide long lasting protection against severe disease. Vaccines protect your lungs even if you are reinfected.

There's a lot of nuance and a lot of people are saying they don't want to get vaccinated because what's the point if you're going to have to do it all over again every six months. In additional to the unvaccinated, there are still have a lot of people who aren't fully vaccinated, who have only had one dose. For a lot of people the booster talk is making things worse. It's adding to the confusion.

---

Talking about boosters confuses some people who might then decide it isn't worth getting vaccinated--isn't that a lot like people being told at the beginning that masks weren't necessary. I don't think you can change or suppress the message based on what you think people can understand or handle. In the long run hiding the truth breeds distrust that's a lot more dangerous than the truth.

At the risk of partly contradicting something I said earlier--the public debate about boosters is good, as long as the opposing opinions are discussing it with each other, and not in social media posts. Let people see the process by which these sorts of decisions are made. It counteracts the narrative that "the vaccine was done too quickly". Yeah, there will be some that will not be able to cope with the fact that there are conflicting opinions but you can't pander to that group. (My pet peeve--Judy Woodruff on PBS in her interviews with various covid authorities seems to have a hard time dealing with unpleasant realities.)

^ I'm not hiding the truth in any way shape or form. Effectiveness against infection and effectiveness against disease are different things. I'm arguing getting fully vaccinated confers long lasting protection against severe disease.

There's also compelling evidence boosters provide much more benefit for people 60+ plus than they do for younger people. For younger groups, we see high protection vs. Covid-19 severity / deaths from vaccines, and so far not much evidence boosters improve protection.

Based on the evidence I think the UK has the right strategy: booster availability for healthcare workers, people age 50+, and the vulnerable / immunocompromised.

I'd do her if she was vaxxed..