To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

mtu, I assume you’re familiar with empathy fatigue? I assume you’ve read the posters here who’ve said things along the lines of ‘it broke my heart to see all these needless deaths, but so much time has passed during which the arguments against vaccination have been obliterated by factual argument that I’m starting to lose my sympathy toward those who stubbornly insist on believing noncredible sources’.

People like you have helped reinforce that unhealthy dynamic. And we haven’t forgotten your cavalier statements about whole swaths of the population dying.

Well, this didn't age well. From Feb of last year:
"Meh. Only N95's work for viruses." "Be more worried about the flu."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhy2FgkP0Yw

And you guys wonder why people question things. Many of these things didn't start out as right-wing talking points. They were said by St. Fauci himself, and parroted by much of the media. Not that science hasn't changed as we learned more. I get that. But many here are wrong by acting like it's just anti-vax Trumpsters who started these talking points. Unless by right-wing talking points, you meant Fauci, NYT, WaPo, etc.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Well, this didn't age well. From Feb of last year:

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If you have to reach back that far you're the one keeping BS alive. No one reasons perfectly, and some people refuse to see what's right in front of them. You see that's a mistake, so quit excusing it.

Yeah MontuckyFried has posted that so many times. Even though Fauci says from the outset back in February 2000 "the risk is low right now but that could change... this could evolve into a global pandemic" MontuckyFried remains stuck in the past rehashing the same old arguments over-and-over.

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Originally Posted by mtuhockey33

Youre right. Several members, if not most I come across, are strongly in the, “if something happens to someone who is un-vaxx’d, well good riddance” camp until it’s someone they know. Then it’s, “they had their reasons, don’t be a douche” and I fail to understand the difference. Is it solely because they knew the person before the pandemic and know that their friend was a good person and this is just a slight flaw? Or is there something else there?

im not anti-vax. I never have been. I had Covid, got basic flu-like symptoms and have anti-bodies. I don’t see a need for a vaccine when my anti-bodies are still there and working just as well as someone who got a shot. That’s been my stance from the beginning and Im constantly put into the “misinformation/trumpet/anti-Vaxxer” status as deemed by the “borg”

But you’re right. “Literally everyone” and “99%” and other hyperbole isn’t my intent, but it’s not far off when you look at this thread.

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OK.

So if it's several, then please don't go veering off on some conic section of Miss Information. It's that kind of vitriol that contributes to greater and greater hostility. Which does nothing but further the divide so carefully wrought by our oligarchical overlords.

I do think it's more common to have compassion for people we feel are in our communities and more hostility for those outside. That doesn't make it right or reasonable. Compassion across the board takes real strength. The kind that esq apes me much of the time.

But your ongoing claim of natural antibodies being as good as Moderna or Pfizer vaccine is not supported by the data. People tire of rerereiterating the facts about this and when people get tired, we're not as magnanimous as we should be.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Your post came up today in response to me saying someone I know who is vaxx'd can't get a bed because the ICUs are full and turned that into what you wrote above. I did mention her family is unvaxx'd and changing their minds. I take back what I said. You're not only an asshole, you have a problem with details too.

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I also think he's wrong about changing our minds if we know someone personally. If I knew someone who could have been vaxxed but chose not to and then ended up in the ICU with Covid I'd be thinking "why did you have to be such a fucking idiot?" I wouldn't be saying "good riddance," but I certainly wouldn't be saying "they had their reasons," either.

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Originally Posted by The AD

I also think he's wrong about changing our minds if we know someone personally. If I knew someone who could have been vaxxed but chose not to and then ended up in the ICU with Covid I'd be thinking "why did you have to be such a fucking idiot?" I wouldn't be saying "good riddance," but I certainly wouldn't be saying "they had their reasons," either.

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Yeah. My father-in-law has lost two unvaccinated cousins to covid. My grandpa lost a long term friend and business associated (much younger than my grandpa) to covid who was unvaccinated. Two women in my office each lost their dads who were unvaccinated. For all these, there were not underlying conditions. My response when I heard of their passings from others was "were they vaccinated?" to which none were. My next comment was "sorry to hear it, that could have gone differently". I don't remember ever thinking they deserved it. But none of these people were those with loudspeakers saying this was all a hoax or posting on the internet against vaccines or protesting my body my choice.

Those people like the Texas FB lady, yeah, karma happened.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Then perhaps they should have just said that instead of literally telling us that masks were unnecessary. Not a good look when they admit to having lied to us, no matter the motives.

Look throughout US history about the many, many lies the government has made. From the Tuskegee Syphilis Study to WMDs in Iraq. And then when they literally TELL us they "had" to lie to save PPE, you guys wonder how the public trust has been eroded over time? I'm NOT saying they're wrong on vaccinations et al, but with people being more aware of the government's past shenanigans than ever before, you can't blame people for having reservations. That's all.

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So if you understand this, why continue railing about the past? Are you saying people aren’t capable of adjusting their perspective when faced with facts? There are a lot of past wrongs perpetrated by government but there are also countless good things that have come about after people reflect on the good and bad. I don’t look at the recommendations of just our CDC, NIH and what I see in the headlines, I look at what’s going on around the world and what other countries are doing, what works, what doesn’t and what the data suggests. I would hope people could look at things objectively but I no longer think that’s possible for the vast majority of Americans. There truly is a scientific consensus that our best option is vaccination, not one of the best but the best. All the other bullshit treatments have no basis at all. We’re really good at keeping people with Covid, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, alive when they should be dead. We know what treatments work. No serious ICU doctors are using HCQ, Ivermectin and whatever else snake oil people think might work, period.

It seems as though this argument you and others are making is just to avoid admitting that you are wrong and to stick it to the man. It makes no logical sense. I’m really not sure about mandates but at this point I don’t care anymore. I don’t want to see people die from a completely avoidable(statistically)disease but if people don’t want to get vaccinated they better be able to live with their choice. We’ll do everything we can for them until we run out of resources and there will likely be some collateral losses along the way but “it is what it is” right?


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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Then perhaps they should have just said that instead of literally telling us that masks were unnecessary. Not a good look when they admit to having lied to us, no matter the motives.

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A couple of thoughts. There was a lot of misinformation coming out of the Trump administration at that time, and the mask guidance was both part of that misinformation and also due to limited supply as others have pointed out. The anti-mask movement then took on political significance when during the presidential campaign Trump decided to take a stance that masks were pointless. He got COVID, almost died, and stuck to his guns on anti-masking. If you recall, back at the start of the pandemic when mask supplies were low people were making their own out of cloth, there were lots of discussions about what fabrics work best, how to make them, etc. I know we (my family) made our own and are still using them to this day.

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Well, this didn't age well. From Feb of last year:
"Meh. Only N95's work for viruses." "Be more worried about the flu."

And you guys wonder why people question things. Many of these things didn't start out as right-wing talking points. They were said by St. Fauci himself, and parroted by much of the media. Not that science hasn't changed as we learned more. I get that. But many here are wrong by acting like it's just anti-vax Trumpsters who started these talking points. Unless by right-wing talking points, you meant Fauci, NYT, WaPo, etc.

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You get that as more information is known that we change our views on these things? It would be very dumb of the CDC to stick to it's initial statements always and never change when they get new information. I hope you're able to understand this. Misrepresenting things in the way you do consistently around here is really unhelpful. I hope you got your vaccines and wear masks when asked to.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

I tried to order an ironic coffee at the OG Cruisin today, but all they gave me was regular coffee.

So disappointed.

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Cruisin jumped the shark quite a while ago. Its like bad Starbucks but they server milkshakes

I think the mask question was more complicated and nuanced during the early weeks of the pandemic that MF keeps harping on. However, given the state of our Protective Gear supply chain, the smart and responsible thing to do was to lie to the American public if that helped get a few more boxes to hospital staff rather than east bumfuck that had yet to see any infections. The TP situation made that pretty clear.

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Originally Posted by Deebased

Cruisin jumped the shark quite a while ago. Its like bad Starbucks but they server milkshakes

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So does Starbucks.

Gotta think part if this is people who still believe they were lied to about the election (and or other things "official") not trusting vax info. Then, there's the other folks who are so pissed off about losing that they're willing to burn it all down not caring if they infect others.. Those are the anti vax AND anti maskers..

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

So if you understand this, why continue railing about the past? Are you saying people aren’t capable of adjusting their perspective when faced with facts? There are a lot of past wrongs perpetrated by government but there are also countless good things that have come about after people reflect on the good and bad. I don’t look at the recommendations of just our CDC, NIH and what I see in the headlines, I look at what’s going on around the world and what other countries are doing, what works, what doesn’t and what the data suggests. I would hope people could look at things objectively but I no longer think that’s possible for the vast majority of Americans. There truly is a scientific consensus that our best option is vaccination, not one of the best but the best. All the other bullshit treatments have no basis at all. We’re really good at keeping people with Covid, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, alive when they should be dead. We know what treatments work. No serious ICU doctors are using HCQ, Ivermectin and whatever else snake oil people think might work, period.

It seems as though this argument you and others are making is just to avoid admitting that you are wrong and to stick it to the man. It makes no logical sense. I’m really not sure about mandates but at this point I don’t care anymore. I don’t want to see people die from a completely avoidable(statistically)disease but if people don’t want to get vaccinated they better be able to live with their choice. We’ll do everything we can for them until we run out of resources and there will likely be some collateral losses along the way but “it is what it is” right?


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You’ll be shocked to learn that Montucky likes to bring up rich peoples flying habits when discussing climate change as an argument against the science.

It’s a pattern. I wish we would stop responding to it.

The mask thing has been settled for a long time at this point. I can’t believe we are even discussing it seriously.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Gotta think part if this is people who still believe they were lied to about the election (and or other things "official") not trusting vax info. Then, there's the other folks who are so pissed off about losing that they're willing to burn it all down not caring if they infect others.. Those are the anti vax AND anti maskers..

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And that's sort of the vibe I get from MF and others...rather than doing what is obvious (getting vaccinated) they try to find reasons to question vaccination/masking with the ultimate goal of it burning it all down...that's the only logical conclusion of their arguments. I guess we should be nice and keep entertaining their outlandish ideas on vaccination and masking with the hope that by being nice they'll eventually see the light.

I wish the Montucky/mtu /etc pushing their distrust narrative would realize that they are viewed as the ones who are dishonest, uneducated and untrustworthy and that the rest of us are sick of it.

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Originally Posted by Deebased

Cruisin jumped the shark quite a while ago. Its like bad Starbucks but they server milkshakes

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Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

So does Starbucks.

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Unlike Starbucks, their shakes are actually good.

IMO Crusin has always been inconsistent whereas Starbucks has been a long slow steady decline to the point where they're pretty much my last resort.

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Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

I guess we should be nice and keep entertaining their outlandish ideas on vaccination and masking with the hope that by being nice they'll eventually see the light.

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Doesn't that confuse the issue?
One can be reasonable about insisting that some views are bogus without deteriorating into abject abuse.

There's a difference.

At the same time, I fully respect, acknowledge and experience the fatigue that brings about sometimes hostile and entertaining responses.

Asshole.
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;-)

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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

So if you understand this, why continue railing about the past? Are you saying people aren’t capable of adjusting their perspective when faced with facts?
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bECAuSe FauCI LiEd bRO

Fuck this thread is tiresome. You guys realize that you're basically arguing with a heard of cats, right?

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Fuck this thread is tiresome. You guys realize that you're basically arguing with a heard of cats, right?

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This falls on deaf ears.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

You guys realize that you're basically arguing with a heard of cats, right?

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I've heard of cats, yes. ;)

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

This falls on deaf ears.

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Ha! That's good.

Yes. But it is easier bullshitting here while procrastinating large work projects. Not changing any hearts and minds and I get that. But I also don't get to call someone an asshole for their views repeatedly IRL.

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Originally Posted by The AD

I've heard of cats, yes. ;)

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f'kn auto-complete! I'm going to leave it. It's funnier this way.