Batteries die very quickly in the cold while trying to get a sat fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenB
And if the weather is bad/cloud cover is heavy they're hard to get a solid sat lock with.
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Batteries die very quickly in the cold while trying to get a sat fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenB
And if the weather is bad/cloud cover is heavy they're hard to get a solid sat lock with.
it is reckless to rush, to choose a "challenging route" while leaving one day to get down before a major storm, take no locator, have little to no familiarity with the mountain, etc., etc., etc.
you can deny it all you want, but three guys are dead, and dozens of others were put at risk to try to save them with absolutely no idea where the objects of their search were.
one day grace is not enough under circumstances that significantly increased the possibility of a catastrophic accident. if they had given themselves more time, the other two climbers would have stood a lot better chance.
apparently it was reasonable risk to many on this board.
Pictures taken with a disposable camera found with James show two sets of tracks in the snow side by side, indicating one of the climbers may have been assisting one of his partners, presumably James, up the slope, Wampler said.
The photos, Wampler said, also confirmed fears that the men were traveling light and fast, lessening their chances of surviving for long in the harsh conditions that quickly overtook the mountain
Rescuers from the U.S. Air Force Reserve's 304th Rescue Squadron who found James in his snow cave said he had a thin lightweight waterproof sack, but no sleeping bag and no warm insulated jacket.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...210.xml&coll=7
I am assuming that you don't climb and have real little familiarity with climbing. While it might seem easy to sit here and question their decisions based upon the known outcome, their decisions must be weighed with what was known at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by spook
It is not reckless to rush on a winter climb... especially when you are in the PNW or mountains in general. You often don't get a long window of favorable climbing weather.
It is not reckeless to choose a "chanllenging route" while leaving one day to get down before a storm. It is winter in the PNW and the route should have taken 16 hours for them. Something went wrong. Who are you to judge them?
Reckless to not take a "locator"? You are kidding right? You ever even climb? Sure one would have helped.. or a satellite phone, or 3 cell phones, or a gps, etc... but that hardly makes not taking a "locator" reckless?
Reckless to climb a mountain you have never climbed before? Ridiculous. Why do think that they had no familiarity with the mountain? There are numerous climbers who spend most of their climbs on mountains they have never climbed before. Everything I have heard about these guys implies that they researched the climb and knew what they were getting into.
Yes, I think there is a whole lot that can be learned by this and hopefully that will help others in the future. But for you to call them "reckless" is ridiculous and insensitive. My thought go out to the friends and families of the climbers and all the top notch rescueres.
flame away, Alembical
it's flaming to have a different opinion? i don't think so. i have climbed a few mountains in my time in the u.s. and the andes.
from the information i have gleaned in the media and numerous other discussion sites, they were not familiar with the area. that does not mean they did not know anything. it means they are not familiar with the mountain. i did not say it was reckless to climb a mountain one has never cliimbed. maybe you should try reading a little more closely while you're busy flaming. even the rescuers were left to look in areas where common mistakes by climbers unfamiliar with hood often lead them.
yes, i consider it reckless to not take a locator (or some other form of reliable communication) when you can rent one for $10 at the bottom of the mountain.
who am i to judge? i'm just like everybody else who pays the taxes that fund the rescue operation that cost a ton of money and put a lot of people at risk, and then listen to media coverage of the families' discussions of god.
ridiculous and insensitive to say it was reckless when three are dead now? i don't think so. i don't feel too much obligation to be sensitive to people who die by their own decisionmaking, especially if your definition of "sensitive" includes anything close to not making an honest evaluation of the situation.
if they had left two days or three days room for error rather than one, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.
These climbers didn't started out on their adventure planning on dying on that mountain. Regaurdless of weather the climbers were irresponsible or not in their decisions they paid with their lives. People make choices and sometimes it is the last one. At least they where in the Mountains. RIP.
I don't really understand your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by spook
Maybe it was not even in response to mine. I never said anything about "flaming" other than "flame away" as I knew what your response would be. Saying something like, "maybe you should try reading a little more closely while you're busy flaming" in a post responding to a post you either barely read or just can not comprehend seems strange.
I would love to see a study on the number of "reckless" (by your definition) climbers who climb without a "locator". I know just because most do not use them, does not mean it is proper not to, but it is far from "reckless" to climb Hood with renting a "locator". Just because people died does not mean that they were "reckless."
Most people die as a result of thier own decision making, and to say that there is no need to be sensitive to them seems quite different than my feelings on the matter.
There are numerous discussions about the actual cost to taxpayers, and they are really quite small.... especially considering it is a search for 3 human lives.
Why does it bother you that their families mention God in their speeches... who cares? If it gives them some comfort, more power to them.
This just seems like one of those topics that different people are going to have very different view points of. We are each entitled to our own thoughts.
Alembical
The common perception among those who climb Hood is that the MLB units are really only good for body location. The fact of the matter is that self rescue is the only type of rescue that a group ought to consider when setting out. MLB units would allow the location of the two missing climbers, but honestly, if they were unable to be located during the three days of clear weather, it's bad.
Part of climbing is the self reliance, responsibility, and camraderie that that inspires. MLB units would not have made the weather clear any sooner, allowed crews to rescue men from the summit in horrendous weather, or otherwise helped. Plus they're bulky and obtrusive (moreso than an avalanche beacon) and these men were geared for a light and fast assault.
The costs of this rescue are minimal, at most. All of the military service is offered free of charge and provides incredibly valuable training for the PJs and pilots involved. The PMR, Crag Rats, Mountainwave and other MR organizations are all volunteer. Timberline donates the cats to get men to the top of Palmer, as well as some bunk space. Financially, it's a nonissue.
While I don't disagree that many fatal climbing accidents are the result of poor or distressed decision making, sometimes it's plain bad luck. A stable foot hold gives way, someone falls and is injured, any room for error in the window weather is eaten up dealing with the injury, and one becomes trapped in terrible weather.Quote:
Originally Posted by alembical
It's not unfathomable that these men were simply the victims of a tragic accident in an unforgiving place.
you, of course, were intimately familiar with everyone of those areas? Bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by spook
They did their homework - talking to people who'd climbed it before, checking out routes and the weather forecast. They had some weather leeway. If everybody waited for a 3-day+ window in the Northwest, nobody would climb anything between October and June.
Now back to the stupid second guessing.
Completely agree. The point I was trying to make, albeit not very clearly was that many deaths outside the realam of hazardous activities are also the result of decision making.... driving too fast, drinking too much, out of shape, over stressed, overweight, unhealthy lifestyle, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by ptavv
Alembical
cj speaks truth. In May of 2004 it took me 3 attempts to finally summit. The weather windows just don't last up there.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
cj, pm me please
Quote:
Originally Posted by spook
Does anyone really care about the money aspect? I mean we are talking about a life so who gives a shit if money is spent. Next time you go skiing or drive down the road or whatever, and you happen to get hurt, lets hear you say no thanks to any help because it might cost money.
I know the rescuers were put at considerable risk but I am sure they were calculated risks. And lets remember they are putting themselves in that spot by their own choice. And kudos to them for trying.
If you don't like to listen to grieving families talk about their god to help themselves through then turn the page on the paper or change the channel.
Officials call off search for Mount Hood men
Sheriff gives up hope of finding climbers alive; mission a ‘recovery effort’
Updated: 40 minutes ago
PORTLAND, Ore. - Rescue teams gave up any hope of finding two missing climbers alive on stormy Mount Hood and abandoned their frustrating, 9-day-old search Wednesday.
“We’ve done everything we can at this point,” said Sheriff Joe Wampler, choking back tears after returning from one last, fruitless flyover of the 11,239-foot peak.
Wampler said the men’s families made the decision to end the search as yet another snowstorm barreled in.
“It was pretty much their conclusion. The chance of survival is pretty nil. I don’t think I can justify putting any more people in the field with the hope of finding them alive,” the sheriff said.
He said the operation was now a “recovery effort.”
Three climbers in all were reported missing in the snow on Mount Hood on Dec. 11. One of them, 48-year-old Dallas landscape architect Kelly James, was found dead in a snow cave on Monday. Volunteers continued scouring the mountains for signs of James’ climbing partners, Brian Hall, 37, and Jerry “Nikko” Cooke, 36. But climbing gear found on the peak suggested the two may have been swept to their deaths.
Wampler announced the end of the search after personally piloting a Piper Cub over the mountain for new clues and finding none — no tracks, no signs of snow caves, no other debris.
“Right now things are moving in from the west,” he said of the snowstorm. “That window has shut on us.”
Even before the sheriff spoke, all of the volunteers had returned to regular lives and helicopters used in the search had returned to their bases.
“I feel good about what I did. I wanted to do what I could for the family,” Wampler said. “You start something, you want to finish it.”
Wednesday morning, before the search was called off, Angela Hall, Brian Hall’s sister, said on NBC’s “Today” show that the two men’s considerable experience climbing mountains is just one of the things that gives her hope they are still alive.
“Also, just their strength of spirit, their strong will,” she said.
Search teams made a full-scale attack of the mountain over the weekend. But the search was scaled back to two air teams Tuesday and the rest of the crews were put on standby.
An autopsy on James was tentatively scheduled for Wednesday. Officials have said he had a dislocated shoulder.
Climbers’ photos raise concerns
Hopes of finding the climbers alive dimmed after officials developed film in a disposable camera found in James’ pocket. The pictures, taken as the men began their ascent, show the three had enough gear and provisions for a quick climb up Mount Hood but not for a longer period out in the elements.
The photos show “three happy guys putting their stuff out there,” the sheriff said. But “looking what they had with them, I’m pretty concerned about how long somebody can last out there.”
Some climbers have survived in a snow cave for nearly two weeks in similarly punishing conditions. In January 1976, three teenagers lived for 13 days on Mount Hood after bad weather halted their effort to reach the summit. The youths bottled water dripping from the cave walls and survived on a mush of pudding powder and pancake mix.
But climbers suffering from hypothermia may become confused, delirious, and uncoordinated, and shiver intensely.
“The shivering is agony,” said Dr. William Long, director of the trauma center at Legacy Emanuel Hospital in Portland. “Once the shivering stops, they have lost the ability to fend for themselves.”
The blood begins to lose oxygen and thicken, just as a car’s oil congeals in frigid temperatures, he said. “That puts a huge strain on the cardiovascular system,” Long said.
Digging for safety
Climbers are supposed to dig caves slightly uphill into snow banks, creating a trap for warm air rising from their bodies. A good snow cave will have a ledge to help drain melting snow or ice and a breathing tube that can be readily cleared; the entrance can serve that purpose. And it should be marked, perhaps by a piece of clothing anchored to the ice or a stick, to let rescuers know where to find the climbers.
Ice axes left in a crude shelter indicate the men had a difficult stay and moved forward without crucial tools.
Experts say it is critical to have fuel and a stove to heat water for drinking. Dehydration can contribute to the effects of hypothermia, and swallowing snow or ice only lowers the body’s temperature.
Sad News Indeed... Rest In Peace
No. If a house catches fire people don’t complain about the expense the fire department incurred.Quote:
Originally Posted by vanilla gorilla
They may have researched the climb, but probably failed to research the weather. Three back to back storms were predicted. With 100 mph winds at high elevation, I would say the lack of good judgement killed them.Quote:
Originally Posted by alembical
Crystal Mt had 85 mph winds @ 7,000'. I could just imagine what it was like on Hood.
welcome to last week :nonono2:Quote:
Originally Posted by BanditXXX
please, next time do bother to read the thread.
While they may have made a dubious decision about the incoming weather I don't think the winds picked up to quite that level until well after any reasonable climber could expect to be off the mountain.Quote:
Originally Posted by BanditXXX
http://www.nwac.us/products/archive/osocmt_archive.htm
I hate to Monday morning quarterback this tradgedy. But anyone who travels in the PNW Cascades in the winter better carry a tent , unless you have at least one week of high pressure and sunny skys.
The only thing that saved my ass on Rainier in March, was a tent that luckily didn't blow away in 50 mph winds, freezing rain, rime ice and just plain brutal weather. Without that tent, I wouldn't be writing this today.
Going fast and light in perfect weather is fun. In a predicted storm is foolish.
I bet they didn't have studded tires either :rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by BanditXXX
The storm hit Oregon first before heading north. They climbed into an oncoming storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Most out of state climbers schedule vacation time to climb on certain dates. They climb , come hell or high water. That can be a fatal flaw.
On Hood, with an oncoming storm, why not go to Timberline Lodge, lollygag around, see if the storm lets up. If it doesn't let up, climb something more mellow or come back to climb another day.
Any one who lives in The PNW, knows mountain conditions in the winter are brutal. When they close the upper mountain at a ski resort, you know that the backcountry has to be insane.
Just stay safe and don't try to be a hero.
None of these guys had any experience on Hood. They choose the wrong route during the wrong time of the year, and reading a book does not equate to experience.
Its a really sad deal, especially since it could have been avoided. The weather system that move in was predicted at least five days in advance. My sympathies go out the their families, and the families of all my buddies working SAR the past week.
I don’t know their résumés, but news reports indicate one of them had 14 accents of Rainer, had weathered a four day blizzard on Denali, and summated Aconcagua. Quit possible he knew how to read a weather report and what to expect from the PNW weather wise
A lot of second guessing going on here. As far as I can tell they took the weather window that was there. It is possible that they accepted the level of risk that IF something happened (such as an injury), then weather would be an issue, but if the climb went smooth, then weather would not be an issue. As it has been said, it's hard to find a long window in the PNW during the winter. Unfortunately, there was an injury, which evaporated the weather window. A calculated risk that they lost on.
These view points from this community seem surprising. Just because they did not have experience on Hood did not mean that they did not have experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenB
Wrong route? Wrong time of year? Yes, it could have been avoided had they just stayed at home or climbed an easier route in July or August, but that is not the point.
Alembical
We can second guess all day long.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
I profess to Ed Viesturs philosophy.
'The summit doesn't count if you don't get back down"!
Nuff said!
Amen, trio of DUMBASS'sQuote:
Originally Posted by BanditXXX
Wanting to climbing a mountain on their time, not the mountains time.
i've been answereing media inquiries the last week about this, and although it wasn't in my "talking points", these guys just were not prepared for dealing with the nasty bitch who runs the show in the PNW.
I'm quite sure they had studded tires. It's too bad they didn't have the proper gear to survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
http://i-world.net/oma/news/accident...1-13-hood.html
This story should be posted at the sign in and at all trail heads leading to a climb of Mt. Hood.
Let this be a warning to all would be climbers in The PNW.