We have a bingo.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Printable View
We have a bingo.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Your right again, reagans Immigration reform whatever is what forced these poeple into this shadow economy. You say fix the system? That means jailing people who are commiting identity theft/ fraud by using other people's ss numbers or even fabricating one. Entering illegally was only their first offense. So we fix the system, and the ss agency starts sharing the some of the 200 million fraudulent ss numbers with the Dept. of Homeland security. I m all for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
I understand we cannot deport all these people, nor would I reccomend doing so, but it is a huge mess we have to clean up, and would expect that some people might have to go back and do it legally. If we can fix the system, we should start by documenting these people.
we started enforcing qoutas on immigration from these countries a long time ago. is that fair? Or do we just prefer the mexicans because they take out the trash? Why do we discriminate? Or are we more or less just offering preferential treatment to those who enter from mexico and will pick lettuce? Is that the debate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
getting people to come here is not the problem. why do the mexicans get a 12 million person exemption when we restrict people from other parts of the world from commng here?
Really? You don't think it had anything to do with the fact that the Mexican economy was horribly mis-managed and was essentially bankrupt for much of the 80s? Or that recent immigrants have networks of friends and family members to ease their journey that simply didn't exist for their predecessors in the 60s and 70s? No, must have been that amnesty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Mexico doesn't have a problem. The problem is economics and the incentives therein. This is then compounded by idiotic policy on our side of the border.Quote:
You claim the disparity between Mexico & US is the problem.
How do you propose that we fix Mexico short of simply allowing unchecked immigration until everything balances?
And why do those fleeing Mexico because it "sucks" then fly Mexican flags and chant "MEXICO!"???
If Mexico has a problem, try to fix it.... Maybe that is why Mexico is restrictive of personal firearm ownership... there might be a REVOLUTION by its populace trying to fix their broken system! I have to say I was optomistic when Fox defeated PRI but he has shown himself to be more of the corrupt status quo.
I don't propose amnesty or anything of the like. But surely there is a way to bring law-abiding individuals into the civil society while satisfying concerns about them jumping the immigration line etc.... If someone comes over here and works hard for 5-10 years, pays taxes, and keeps his/her nose clean, why shouldn't there be some sort of halfway house short of citizenship, providing they use the proper channels?
All things (other than ethnicity) being equal, yes, I believe there would be an outcry. It wouldn't be as great, but that's a class issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
Assuming this was sarcasm, you're quite clearly wrong. Why would Reagan have granted an amnesty if these people already weren't in the shadow economy? The system was broken long before Reagan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
I'm all for jailing people who commit these crimes. Never said otherwise. That said, I hope you're not implying that a large % of illegals are engaged in this type of fraud. Ther'es simply no evidence to back that up. It's just as likely that (legal) Russian mobsters or the Sopranos are dominating that business.Quote:
You say fix the system? That means jailing people who are commiting identity theft/ fraud by using other people's ss numbers or even fabricating one.
I commend you on your simultaneous use of both the slippery slope argument and the strawman. You've not only argued against a solution I wasn't suggesting, but the very nature of that "solution" is ridiculous in the first place. Well done.Quote:
Entering illegally was only their first offense. So we fix the system, and the ss agency starts sharing the some of the 200 million fraudulent ss numbers with the Dept. of Homeland security. I m all for it.
This is the first rational suggestion you've made. Since we can't deport them and really wouldn't want to given the damage it would to do our economy, we have to fix the system and find a solution. A first step would be to document them. No question. But you can't entice them to be documented until and unless there is a viable and superior alternative to remaining in the shadow economy, perpetually on the run from the INS.Quote:
I understand we cannot deport all these people, nor would I reccomend doing so, but it is a huge mess we have to clean up, and would expect that some people might have to go back and do it legally. If we can fix the system, we should start by documenting these people.
Tin, I respect you and all, but how do you think Illegals survive in this country? They all use fraudulent ID or at least the vast majority do. I was referring to reagans initiative that employer"s use certain documentation before hiring people. That forced these people to break more laws just to survive here.
I can tell you from many years of experience in latin America things are different. I wont say they do not repect our system, since most of these people are comming from countries that have far less sophisticated tax collection, or dcumenattion requirements than we do. hell most of the people in question were probably not very well documented in the countries they came from. But thats why we have a process, to teach them that they need these things. That the IRS wants to be paid in a timely manner. I understand that 99% of these people are simply hard working people and at this point should have a chance to stay.
I agree with most of what you say. I just find it important to point out the illegal alein debate is a prime example of how our gov't is not enforcing certain laws. And that we dont have to have an illegal run through our backyard bbq to be adversly affected by it.
i will post this for the tenth time. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ret_stash.html
This is exactly my point. They use fraudulent ID b/c they have to - there's no other option short of applying for a visa that will never come or remaining in their native countries in a state of penury and hopelessness. Why should they not have the option of some sort of official ID that gives them a limited set of priveleges with certain mandatory hoops to jump through prior to citizenship? Then you use the hammer of cracking down on companies that refuse to abide by this system by hiring completely undocumented illegals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
The real crime w/r/t Social Security isn't that ESF fund. Rather it's that this "fund" doesn't really exist as we know funds to exist. Along with every other cent of surplus generated by SS taxes, it is being plowed into current spending to offset the current deficits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
We are currently bankrupting our childrens' generation, and yet we're here arguing about whether we should deport 12 million people. The common theme is that we gloss over the real problems all the while shouting back and forth about easily digestable, yet perfectly illogical and irrelevant, so-called "solutions" to the problems in question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
Its called a green card, they should have filled out the form. And as much i try to symphatize with these people, they certainly know what breaking a law is.
And if we are to extend our hands to every person in a state of "penury and hopelessness" then I think we will need a fleet of liberty ships to haul everyone from Africa and Asia here too. Its just not practical and i do not think that is what you are advising. What to do with the 12 million already here? I think we agree on that.
im off to a movie.
well, I'm glad to see that all the "illegals" made it out yesterday. it sounds like some of them actually value the work they have because less than 1 million of the 11 million plus showed up to ANSWER's parade.
in fact in LA more people showed up for the Laker's Three-peat(hat tip Pat Riley) than showed up for the walk out yesterday. I'd call it a pathetic showing, but it was actually smart that these people didn't listen to the organizers, whomever they may be.
To the people that did show up to the protest, I hope you showed up to a pink slip this morning.
Yep, that is why all these threads are a wast of time. Nothing will come of it. The gov't is screwing us all. but this "loophole" presents enormous problems to some americans. Our ss numbers are basically like our DNA in this country. And allowing this fraud to take place at the expense of everyday law abiding Americans is a crime. And unfortunately for me, this is the real problem I have with the illegal alien debate in our country, i guess i use it for selfish reasons. But it is never the less a practice among the illegal community that must stop. We must at least Document them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
Obviously the green card isn't the answer, or else the illegals would be applying for them in droves. I'm thinking of something with a much lower barrier to acquire, carrying with it fewer priveleges, but with a clear road map to a green card or some other form of normalcy. You then combine that "carrot" with the "stick" of jailing employers who don't hire properly documented illegals. Given the widespread availability of the Internet, it would seem to be quite feasible to set up a database (including photos) of these card holders in order to quickly determine if they are valid or not. Therefore, minimal cost to the employer to check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
I agree with that. Which is why the solution is to fix the system that encourages them to remain undocumented. Advocating the notion that we can either send them home or stop them from coming is like getting mad at your professor in school b/c you got a lousy grade after not studying. Instead of getting mad at the prof, how about putting the work in to study?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cono Este
I agree with the concept...but think about how this action will impact the illegals who are coming here to escape a hopeless situation, not to mention the "legals" who are employed by these same companies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
I'm not advocating that companies who practice this are let off the hook, I'm simply playing devil's advocate here and showing you that to punish them is also to punish those who are most vulnerable.
No easy fix here! It is very fucked.
Sprite
There wouldn't be any impact on legals b/c they presumably have a green card, or some other legit form of ID. As for illegals, they'd have to spend some time queueing in a line for the new ID, but as long as they don't have a criminal record, they'd have nothing to worry about.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowsprite
No, I mean...they'd be out a job!
Sprite
Obviously the Mexican economic and government program is a failed system.
What about adding in their states ("NAFTA II") and granting them full citizenship as part of the deal? Who could object to the upgrade?
Right now we are only talking about solving the problem north of the border.
the real issue is while we would all love to let anyone we want into our country, we cant. The reason that so many are trying to get to the USA is that we have the best quality of life. But, by coming to our country, they are lowing the quality of life for everyone who is already here. If all the mexicans who want to come over to the US just fucking stayed there, things would gradually get better. Our country is very young when compared to the rest of the world's governments. Why cant mexico grow the same way that we did?(i know its not perfect, but an idea)
Also, something that struck me as very odd. I go to school in Santa Clara, and i was in no way whatsoever effected by the rally's yesterday. But, i read in the news this moring that the immigrants were chanting, "Yes we Can" in SPANISH!!
If they really want to try to be accepted, maybe they should adopt the offical language of the country that they illegally came to, not make California and the entire SouthWest the newest province of Mexico!
Damn me that I can't hear this word without thinking of Bill O'Reilly and his fucking smirk!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippster
Young? AFAIK we're one of the longest running governments of any country, with only the UK and Switzerland having longer tenures of stability in the Western World... read: no coups, no switching from Monarchy to Communism...etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by mc_roon
Staying home doesn't make home better. Look at Africa.
Only a racist would oppose allowing Mexico to join the United States, right cj001f and Tin Woodsman?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Word
I guess I don't follow. I think employers would still be thrilled to hire them at minimum wage, but I'm really not close enough to the agricultural or building trades to know what the economics are like.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowsprite
Thanks for playing, but how about we focus on realistic and practical solutions to the problem instead of irrelevant "gotcha" bullshit like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
The sad thing is that you appear to be serious here. While their are notable exceptions (individuals who get ensnared by identidy fraud, for example), immigrants make us FAR wealtheir than we normally would be if they weren't here. You'd be paying a lot more for your food, your housing, your childcare - things you spend money on every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by mc_roon
And for the record, thanks to (among other things) NAFTA, the Mexican economy is growing faster than our own and will eventually catch up, though it will take a long time.
Certainly not a realistic or practical solution, but I couldn't miss an opportunity to point out the inanity of your argument that those who have a problem with illegals are racist at heart. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
Summit's comments here have as much chance of eliciting change to U.S. immigration policy as yours. Plus he indending to be funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
Smugly dismissive, not particularly amusing, and entirely tangential. So characteristic of american political debate. Somewhere I hear 2 billion people laughing in Mandarin and Hindi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
I'm sure that most of the people chiming in here on your side aren't primarily driven by racism. But you're a fool to believe that it doesn't play a role. Like I said, if it were a tide of fair haired, English speakers swamping our shores, I'm absolutely certain there would be less of any outcry. In part, that is b/c we would be able to talk with them, interact with them, socialize with them. That simply isn't the case for the vast majority of illegals, nearly all of whom are simply faceless, darker skinned laborers we never talk to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
But the sad thing is that you choose to engage me on the issue of whether or not it's racism that is driving this movement. How about a real debate on solutions to the actual problem (Hint: The problem isn't the immigrants) instead of easy-to-digest soundbites for Joe Sixpack.
I think it's just hindi because the Mandarin just got turned in to the Chinese secret police by Yahoo for looking at the TGR message board. He'll be sent to a labor camp in north western China for the rest of his days.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Sounds like a ski fanatic will be building our DPs and K2s then! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_gyptian
Of course there's going to be racism. Our country has a long and glorious history of that. But no. I stated earlier here that this is more of (or as much as) a class issue than a race issue. Consider that 10-15 years ago almost 500 billion Chinese emigrated to Vancouver when Hong Kong went back to China. Most of these people were educated and could speak English (if not, they learned), they brought money, created jobs, etc. I really don't know how well they've integrated into local society, but everything seems to have turned out okie-dokie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Woodsman
Okay, I realize that my example is a bit simplistic and that there are other issues going on, but, really, if a substantial fraction of the 11 million undocumentos were already middle or upper class, could speak English or made serious efforts to learn upon setting up residence here, had an education, etc. (i.e., come to the U.S. as class equals), do you feel that there would be as much resistance to the proposed amesty programs?
I think they are intertwined in a general feeling of "they're not like us", regardless of whether it's based on race, class, religion, whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva
And of course they can't speak English, but I bet their kids will. 99.99% of these people are coming for a better life - for themselves and their families. There are certainly troublemakers, like in any community. Kick those fuckers out. Keep the good ones and give them a path to legality. Document all of them. Fine, harshly, the employers who refuse to comply.
Tin Woodsman you impress me, but I have to agree with Viva's last post very strongly over yours.
I hate you. Your arguing style (Step-by-step deconstruction) resembles how I used to debate here before I gave up after too many discussions with highly rational and logical people like Dexter Ruteki and Benny Profane. ;)
I heard this on the radio a few days ago and thought it was particularly well done.
I think one reason this thread goes on so long is one side of the argument only wants to point out the problems illegals cause. The other side of the argument onyl wants to point out the cause of problems. (Disregarding the "let everyone in, there is no problem" morons).Quote:
Originally Posted by National Public Radio
To summarize from the thread:
Problems caused:
1. Illegals pass from Mexico to USA and back almost at will in great #s.
2. Illegals work for less than legal immigrants and citizens, depressing wages.
3. Illegals not knowing OR LEARNING English create a great burden on public services that are obliged to serve everyone.
4. Illegals use publicly available services and government services, burdening them while not putting back in.
5. Exploitation and victimization of illegals by employers and criminals (elaborated below).
6. Danger to society from illegals (elaborated below, don't scream yet).
Beyond the conflict between native born citizens and illegals, there is also strife between legal immigrants and naturalized citizens over culture/language issues (actually quite common) and wages.
5* Many illlegals are suckered by coyotes, assholes who take their money to "safely get them to the USA." This often involves very unsafe travel:airtight trucks in SouthWest weather, no seatbelts, and illegals are abandoned by cayotes at first hint of trouble.
I've lived a lot of places including California and Texas. I remember the weekly news stories on the truck full of illegals that overturned killing a dozen (oh wait that still happens in collorado. I also remember the stories of dozens of illegals found dead of exposure in sealed rail cars and box trucks.
Upon arrival illegals may be bullied into paying into debt for the trip leading to indentured servitude (including sex slavery in some cases).
Employers can work illegals in poor conditions for depressed wages with no hope of redress of greivance for the work. The potential for abuse is obvious and the abuse is abundant.
6* Illegals, there first action in the country beign to break the law, are fugitives and therefor a danger to themselves and others when presented with certain trouble.
I'm just going to put two local examples here where illegals endangered the public and hurt themslevs because being illegal pushed them to extreme action:
Example 1: Fire/Police/EMS were called to a wreck on I-70 Glenwood Canyon. Drunk illegals crashed their truck (luckily not into anyone). Rumors of ICE (INS) activity in the area had all the ilelgals on edge. When EMS and Police showed, the illegals who were still walking tried to run and two of them jumped off the elevated highway falling 80ft (somehow surviving, we should get them skiing). One of them had a gun (did not use).
Example 2: During a snowstorm this winter, a van full of illegals broke down on the I-70 Eisenhower Tunnel approach. Rather than risk capture the illegals scattered down the snowy embankment or through the Eisenhower tunnel leading to injuries and a considerable use of county resources.
In those examples nobody else was hurt too, but that is often not the case.
Additional risks come from: No health inspection, no vaccination requirement (lowers herd immunity), no background check, no basic education on US society/law.
Causes problems (no order):
1. Low Border Security - Not enough to control passage but enough that illegals pay cayotes, cross at dangerous areas, cross through dangerous terrain/weather.
2. Low paying jobs that take advantage of illegals are still are better than what the illegal could get at home, especially without societal overhead like taxes, insurance, etc.
3. Businesses are eager and willing to hire illegals at depressed wages.
4. Counterfit ID is apparently easy to obtain.
5. Businesses that might not otherwise hire illegal are hard pressed to determine the authenticity of documents.
6. Poor economic opportunity in Mexico versus US.
7. Poor public services in Mexico versus US.
8. Poor educational opportunity in Mexico versus US.
9. Little to no detterence due to a broken system that doesn't enforce laws and lacks other laws.
10. Successful lobbying and existing hispanohablantes have altered public and government structures to facilitate illegals who speak spanish (versus any other non-english langauge).
11. Existing system for entry into the US is far more difficult when the above issues, causes, and motivations are taken into account.
Solutions:
Address the 11 causes above (I'm sure someone will come up with some causes I've missed)... easier said than done.
It mainly boils down to #3 IMHO.
Wow Summit, that's kind of what I was thinking about... a laundry list type of thing to analyze the situation factually(we think alike, are you a science/math geek too?).
What you say makes a lot of sense. There are these issues and it's not for racism or whatever...you're just presenting what it is.
Then you bring up the causes. Which anyone can see have solutions, albeit they are not cheap or easy.
So why can't the leaders who have some power outline this in a similar fashion and take some intelligent action? Hell, we've made more progress with it on a ski message board, methinks. :rolleyes:
Inquiring minds want to know.
Sprite
To re-enforce some of Summit's points, some articles out of TODAY's (just today's) Arizona Daily Star (Tucson).
7 who died in crash were a familyQuote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Truck fleeing with migrants collides with pickup; 7 hurt
An example of the results of the "plug the hole" philosophy of the government towards border security. Rather than completely securing the border, we just plug holes, pushing illegal aliens into even more desolate and dangerous environments. Note the provisions talked about in this article related to "rescuing" illegal immigrants..Care to guess who pays for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
Migrants, Border Patrol fear deadliest summer yet on border
Not only that, but a "home" country that encourages and even funds educational material with border crossping "tips"Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
(see the previous article: "Migrants, Border Patrol fear deadliest summer yet on border")
Just a taste from a location where this is a real, daily issue, every day, all year.
I favor the guest worker program. However, check this out. It's the Washington State Patrol Most Wanted list. Judge for yourself...
http://www.wsp.wa.gov/crime/wanted.htm
No more thoughts from the Woodsman?
Why yes, I am :pQuote:
Originally Posted by snowsprite
... 80% hispanic... OK... this thread is about illegal aliens. Are those people illegal aliens?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember
EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE ENTIRE LIST IS WANTED FOR AT LEAST TWO OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING:
Vehicular Homicide
Vehicular Assault
Felony Hit and Run
DUI
Summit nicely done!
Mostly babbling and repeats but……I thought I could avoid posting on this one and I admit I have not read all 8 pages, but after our entire jobsite (in NM) had to be shut down due to no shows on Monday, I must give my 2 cents…….
You are here illegally, you do not deserve/are entitled to “citizenship”, but you may have and ID or green card because there is no way in hell we are going to round up all 12-22 million of you. Yes, we need you here so I can still afford my $3 gal gasoline (Oil man in the White House….O RILY?)
All that are here, you can stay but you must pay your fare share, may not become a citizen until you have went though the proper procedures or have severed 4 years in the military.
Guest worker program with different pay scales seems like a reasonable solution to, keep track of, ensure safety of all parties, tax, keep costs within the costs living, etc….
Mr. Bush…….”National Security”……FIX THE FUGGIN’ BOARDERS! People here pickin’ lettuce so I can buy it for cheap is NOT my main concern with this issue.