Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

Have you done an FTP test recently? I believe most people build their base/threshold/VO2 numbers on that. Training Peaks will calculate your zones for you if you do one. Of course, HR and FTP correlate, but it seems like most people are building plans around watts and not HR now. But listen to Pickles as I could be wrong. I just figured I'd offer that before asking him this question based on the plan he suggested for you:

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I have the ability to run an FTP test on my smart trainer and can do so. The reason I've been focusing on HR is that while riding outside (gravel and mtbs), I have no power meter to train with. I do, however, use an HR/GPS watch and can keep an eye on HR zones.

In rereading this thread (I haven't completely finished yet) it seems that there is reference to Seiler's 3 zone system, to a 5 zone system, and even a 10 zone system (I think). I think that each of these systems are generally describing the same thing with a different number of zones. I want to be sure that I set my training targets to align with the zones mentioned above. I'm constructing a set of follow up questions to make sure I understand correctly and will post later after I have those and have done a full reread of the thread.

Yes, TLBR is the one that I'm talking about. Awesome! If you get in, let me know! Maybe I can draft off of you for a little while. :-)

Ahh that all makes sense. Apologies if I missed that. I'm actually doing the same thing riding outside until the power meter I'm looking at comes back in stock (so, like 2023 based on bike supply chain issues). I've just done so many structured workouts in zwift (while wearing a hrm) that I've found what heart rate ranges typically match my base/threshold/VO2 watts.

Alright, I made it all the way back through the thread. Took some notes to piece some things together and think I have a better understanding. All of my rides end up funneling into Strava and Training Peaks and I've been keeping an eye on the TP HR zones. From what I can tell, I spend the VAST majority of my time in the Z4-Z5C (see attached as an example of a normal ride). Max HR for me at 42 should be ~178 but I think my actual recorded are a little above that - up to 183. I also feel like I can ride at 150-160 for hours. This feels like a comfortable amount of effort - not easy, but sustainable. If I get much above 165 I start to feel it.
Resting HR is upper 50s to low 60s. TP suggests that my Threshold is roughly 154 (changes a little per ride).

Using HR to set my targets, I believe that Base days should be Z2 (124-137bpm).

Are VO2 max intervals and Threshold intervals essentially the same (4x 3-8min) but at different HRs (Threshold would be Z5A vs VO2 at 5B or 5C)?

How long should I recover between these intervals? Sounds like Z1 or Z2 is good for this recovery period, but Xtra himself tries to target Z2.

Thanks a ton for the info. I feel like I'm getting relatively close to being able to sit down and map this out for myself.

Seth

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Originally Posted by sethschmautz

Alright, I made it all the way back through the thread. Took some notes to piece some things together and think I have a better understanding. All of my rides end up funneling into Strava and Training Peaks and I've been keeping an eye on the TP HR zones. From what I can tell, I spend the VAST majority of my time in the Z4-Z5C (see attached as an example of a normal ride). Max HR for me at 42 should be ~178 but I think my actual recorded are a little above that - up to 183. I also feel like I can ride at 150-160 for hours. This feels like a comfortable amount of effort - not easy, but sustainable. If I get much above 165 I start to feel it.
Resting HR is upper 50s to low 60s. TP suggests that my Threshold is roughly 154 (changes a little per ride).

Using HR to set my targets, I believe that Base days should be Z2 (124-137bpm).

Are VO2 max intervals and Threshold intervals essentially the same (4x 3-8min) but at different HRs (Threshold would be Z5A vs VO2 at 5B or 5C)?

How long should I recover between these intervals? Sounds like Z1 or Z2 is good for this recovery period, but Xtra himself tries to target Z2.

Thanks a ton for the info. I feel like I'm getting relatively close to being able to sit down and map this out for myself.

Seth

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I'd be shocked if your threshold HR is 154, especially if you've seen 183 before. Right around threshold is not a comfortable pace that can be held for hours. It's the absolute maximum that can be held for 1 hour, by definition. In real life, almost no one can really ride at their theoretical threshold for a full hour.

If you find 150-160 to be sustainable, I'd suggest that that represents your tempo range. (Z3). If going over 165 for long feels unsustainable, your threshold is probably just under that, maybe 163 or so.

Go out and ride a slight incline as hard as you can go for 20 minutes. Your threshold HR will be a few BPM below the average for that interval.

For reference, I'm 45 and my threshold HR is 170. I have gotten it to 178 a few times at the end of VO2 intervals, but haven't seen higher recently except running.

We'll talk about the difference between threshold intervals and VO2 max intervals later.

Some of our zwift and the recent real life TT series was how i figured out my LTHR, which really helped me straighten out my zones. Intervals.icu helps too, it will say, "oh, you did 172 bpm avg for 26 minutes so your lthr is probably about 169" for example. And then I custom set my zones in strava so my analysis there seems to make a lot more sense.

I want to say I used these

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/learn/...setting-zones/

And yeah if you've seen 183 your lthr is probably in the 170 ballpark.

Thank you both! Going to try to set targets around 170 as threshold and see how that goes.

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Originally Posted by sethschmautz

Are VO2 max intervals and Threshold intervals essentially the same (4x 3-8min) but at different HRs (Threshold would be Z5A vs VO2 at 5B or 5C)?

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I'm curious what others say to that question, but Threshold is typically ridden for much longer than a VO2 interval because of the different intensity between the two efforts. There are lots of ways to break up Threshold intervals, but 2 or 3, 20-minute efforts with 10 minutes between efforts is a pretty typical workout.

V02, as far as I understand, should be extremely difficult/impossible for you to sustain for more than 8 minutes. There are countless VO2 interval workouts out there like 5 sets x 3 minutes, 5x5, 4x8, Tabata style, etc. I'd be curious if someone who knows this stuff better than me has found any science that one type of VO2 interval is more effective than the other?

Yeah pretty different, threshold is keeping yourself below your anaerobic threshold, ie, as hard as you can go for an extended period of time, usually taken by 95% of your best 20 minutes. vo2 is more as hard as you can go for 5ish minutes.

I have a couple of hills around me that I like for vo2 stuff. One is really steep and about 4min to the top, another a little longer but not quite as steep, and then another nice quiet road that takes more like 10-12 minutes. I think the key with anything is a little bit of variety. So sometimes I'll do the pure 4-5min efforts, while last week I was doing 40/20 at what I guessed was high vo2 effort up the longer hill. I got about 11 of those in each time up and did 4 laps. The week before it was kind of a turn my ride into a workout thing where I put in some hard efforts and rest periods while I was out there. Last week I also did a 2x20 workout up to the ski hill so I feel fairly good about my recent riding and training.

XC mtb race friday and a road/gravel race sunday so I guess I'll see. Probably should have used the trainer/zwift a little more this spring but once I could go ride outside I put it away.

Thanks all - trying to glean as much as I can and put together a workout plan.

Jamal - when you say "below your aerobic threshold", I'm guessing that this is not the "Threshold" HR that we said may be around 170, above, correct or am I mistaking that? In Training Peaks, when I set my threshold to be 170, I get the following chart. Can you give me a rough idea which zones to target in my Threshold Intervals and also for my VO2 intervals? From the descriptions above I'm thinking Threshold Intervals should be in Z4 whereas VO2 should be in Zone 5A-5C with the different durations as mentioned.

Will also ensure that these training days have some variety and not the exact same thing each time.

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A couple of general questions:
1. On the "Volume" week recommended by XtraPickels, what zone(s) should I focus my efforts in? Does it matter or can I ride in any zone(s) as long as I am riding lots?
2. In the Recovery week do I need to skip the Monday night group ride knowing that it will be really tough to stay in Z1/Z2?

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Originally Posted by jamal

Yeah pretty different, threshold is keeping yourself below your aerobic threshold, ie, as hard as you can go for an extended period of time, usually taken by 95% of your best 20 minutes. vo2 is more as hard as you can go for 5ish minutes.

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Yep. A lot of people like to do "sweet spot" intervals (84-97% FTP) instead of true threshold intensity since they are nearly as effective as threshold (91-105%), but easier to recover from and therefore do more of. These are typically 12-20 mins long, but can be 30 mins.

VO2 intervals in the 4-8' range are very effective if done hard enough (max effort, pretty much) and show results quickly. Plateaus happen from them though, so you can't do them for months on end and keep improving. HR is not a useful indicator for VO2 intervals since it lags so much. Just go as hard as you can for 5 mins, then rest for 2 mins, then do it again 4 more times. You should be doubled over and nearly unable to control your bike at the end of each work interval.

Seth, why don't you just do a test and get back to us? We're just a couple of strangers on the internet who are spitballing at what your threshold HR is, but you can definitively answer the question with a one hour ride. Do another 20 min interval after your test and you'll have a solid workout.

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Originally Posted by sethschmautz

Jamal - when you say "below your aerobic threshold", I'm guessing that this is not the "Threshold" HR that we said may be around 170, above, correct or am I mistaking that?

1. On the "Volume" week recommended by XtraPickels, what zone(s) should I focus my efforts in? Does it matter or can I ride in any zone(s) as long as I am riding lots?
2. In the Recovery week do I need to skip the Monday night group ride knowing that it will be really tough to stay in Z1/Z2?

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I suspect Jamal meant to say "anaerobic threshold". That's the commonly used number, and is usually just called "threshold". One's actual aerobic threshold is a lot lower and very difficult to measure without scientific equipment. It's not commonly used as a training metric outside of the lab, AFAIK.

IMO Xtra wants you to ride mostly in Z2 and Z1 for the "volume" weeks. You can probably do a tempo ride in there as well, but the idea is to keep the intensity low so you can ride a lot. A lot depends on the person, of course. I would say, though, that if you're not able to ride for more than 15 hours, you can probably afford to do some more intensity.

If you really enjoy the group ride I'd say go for it--just pretend that Tuesday is the start of your recovery week. Most people are good with 5-6 days off anyway, so you'll prob still be fine.

Yeah that.

I really noticed that HR lag doing those 40/20s last week to the point where I was wondering if I didn't go hard enough. It would take quite a few to even crack 170 (my threshold is around that). But, at the same time I'm doing upper vo2 power on every one and it's like 30min of total work so I think it's fine. And I definitely felt it the next couple days.

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Originally Posted by climberevan

Seth, why don't you just do a test and get back to us? We're just a couple of strangers on the internet who are spitballing at what your threshold HR is, but you can definitively answer the question with a one hour ride. Do another 20 min interval after your test and you'll have a solid workout.

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You got it. The one hour FTP test on the trainer or the "go as hard as you can up the incline for 20 minutes and take your average HR" test?

I've been sick the last few days but will try to get that done this weekend or early next week if possible. Thanks for the input.

Seth



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Did my first hard hilly road group ride tonight in 2 years. Zwifted w/ a bunch of you this winter and lots of riding lately, but was pleasantly surprised I hung w/ lead group of 4 just like the old training/racing days.

Found my Max HR is still 181 @42y/o which it's been around for quite a few years. Was great seeing my power numbers pretty much identical to same ride/group from when I was pretty fit 5 years ago.
13 mile hilly rip legs off portion ~35 minutes out of 1hr ride; Today 3.6w/kg, NP 314w vs 3.7w/kg, 328w from May 2017. Later on that season when I was peaking looks like I was doing same at 4w/kg @ 338w.

All those training hours for 4-7% gains and I was 5 yrs younger.... not sure how helpful any of that actually is. But I think the takeaway I have from it is that once you gain fitness, it's generally easier to get it back, also that you can ride smarter and only burn matches when needed.

Alright... I’m trying to be more diligent with my training rather than just ‘riding really hard’.

Any suggestions on how to structure intervals? I have very very basic experience. My current routine is a 1 minute max effort up a 12 percent grade hill by my house then coasting back of the start and going again. I alternate sitting vs standing for efforts. I think this works well... but gosh is it brutal. Anything more refined I should try? Today I tried 40 second max efforts, 20 seconds of recovery then 4 minutes moderate pace repeating for around an hour.

The goal is a 12mph average in a 100 mile race in August. Working on transitioning to bike fitness now. I’m in good shape but just not currently fast on the bike so I’m working to build some speed.

Seth- My apologies- I completely missed your questions, but it looks like you've gotten some great info that echo's what I would have said. Kudo's to everyone.
1. Your more recent zones look appropriate, if 170bpm is your Threshold HR (Which it very likely could be).
2. When doing specific efforts, aim for the middle of the Zone. E.g. If base is 140-150 bpm, Aim for 145bpm. It's OK if you bump up against the upper limit or even go slightly over, but aiming for the middle gives you that padding for when the terrain or excitement causes you to go a bit harder.

Re. Testing:
1. Do the 20 min all-out test. Hour long tests are near impossible to get an accurate result because of the required mental fortitude.


re. Zones:
1. There's two schools of thought as mentioned: The 3 zone system endorses by Seiler and the 5+ zone system endorsed by everyone else. All the systems that have 5+ zones are essentially the same through threshold, some add in additional zones above threshold (e.g. 5a, 5b, 5c or 6,7,8).
2. The 3 zone system's Zone #1 Base is roughly equivalent to Zone #2 Base in the other systems. However, it's technically a bit higher of of a workload. I, personally, like the 3-zone way of thought, however, I prefer the base workload of the 5 zone system (which is closer to 1.5mmol of Lactate vs. Seiler's 2.0mmol of Lactate).

Re. Volume week intensity
1. Staying in Base (Z2 (5+ zone)) plan will help prevent any unnecessary fatigue. However, I often do one workout during the volume week, assuming everything feels good.
2. Each zone doesn't necessarily have to be 7 days. (A week is just such a convenient length of time). In your recovery "week" you can do the Monday Group ride (if you feel good. If you feel tired, skip it), rest hard Tuesday-Friday, Pick your volume week back up on the weekend. However, shortening the cycle means you have to be real good about recovering (decreasing workload, no additional life-stress, eating well, etc.). If you're bad at recovering, then take the full cycle.


Re. VO2 vs. Threshold Efforts:
1. First, I use HR for Efforts below threshold and maybe efforts just above threshold. However, for most efforts above threshold just know that they need to be very hard. Try to pace yourself so that you can make it through the workout with an even effort (e.g. in a 4x 8 min VO2 workout, that the first and last interval are within 10% of each other in terms of power or performance (e.g. for the e.g.: You climb to roughly the same point in 8 minutes for each effort)). This means the first effort is likely hard, but doable and that the last effort isn't much fun at all. If we think about this in terms of watts, I'd rather someone did 300w, 300w, 300w, 300w instead of 350, 300, 275, 250.
2. As said above, typically Threshold efforts are in the >15+ minute range and V02 efforts are <10 minutes.

Traditional:
Threshold: >10minutes per rep, 3-5minutes recovery, 30+ minutes of total work (e.g. 3x10 minutes, 2x20 minutes, etc. ) Workload = Sustainable for the interval length. The total work and workload increases as your fitness improves, but the rep length doesn't necessarily.
VO2: <10 minutes per rep, Recovery as much as needed to repeat the performance, up to the amount of time of the rep, 15-30 minutes of total work. Workload = Sustainable for interval length (you can work harder for 8 minutes than you can for 20). E.g. 3x8 minutes, with 5-8 minutes recovery. The total work and workload increases as your fitness improves, but the rep length doesn't necessarily.

You can also do shorter rest intervals:
Threshold example: 3 sets of a block that consists of 3 reps of 5 minutes "on" / 1 minute "off". This is a way to do longer threshold workouts, but with a bit of a mental break. In between sets, you'd still do the 5 minute recovery.
VO2 Example: 3 sets of a block that consists of 8 reps of 30 seconds at very hard effort / 30 seconds recovery spin. 5 minutes between sets. The 30 second effort is harder than you could hold for your typical 8min VO2 effort, and the shorter recovery ensures you're sucking in a lot of oxygen during the block.

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Originally Posted by jamal

Yeah that.

I really noticed that HR lag doing those 40/20s last week to the point where I was wondering if I didn't go hard enough. It would take quite a few to even crack 170 (my threshold is around that). But, at the same time I'm doing upper vo2 power on every one and it's like 30min of total work so I think it's fine. And I definitely felt it the next couple days.

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Totally fine and expected. Your HR may reach VO2 toward the end of the last set, but less likely prior to that.
Often, HR will lag so much that the HR peaks are in the recovery portions of the effort.
40/20 x 10 + 30/30 x 10

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Originally Posted by Tailwind

Alright... I’m trying to be more diligent with my training rather than just ‘riding really hard’.

Any suggestions on how to structure intervals? I have very very basic experience. My current routine is a 1 minute max effort up a 12 percent grade hill by my house then coasting back of the start and going again. I alternate sitting vs standing for efforts. I think this works well... but gosh is it brutal. Anything more refined I should try? Today I tried 40 second max efforts, 20 seconds of recovery then 4 minutes moderate pace repeating for around an hour.

The goal is a 12mph average in a 100 mile race in August. Working on transitioning to bike fitness now. I’m in good shape but just not currently fast on the bike so I’m working to build some speed.

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There's 2 paths (or a combination thereof) moving forward.
1. Focus purely on "physiology"
2. Focus on the demands of the event.

What is the 100 race, what is the terrain like and what are your limitations?
IF there is brutally steep climbing AND hiking it is where you are going to lose a lot of time, THEN I think that the 1 minute efforts could be great.
OR
IF you are racing short-track / xc AND you need the power to attack for the win, THEN I think the 1 minute efforts could be great.

These 1 minutes efforts are spicy and fun in the sadistic way, However, barring those two situations (or similar) you're likely better off with some longer intervals.

You have plenty of hills around you, and the weather (aside from today) is getting nicer, so feel free to do all your training outside.

Each week, aside from a rest week, I'd do 1 workout focused on VO2 efforts and once focused on threshold efforts.

VO2 type intervals: find a hill that you can put a very hard 8 minute effort in, climb that 3 times to start with 5-8 minutes of recovery.

Threshold, longer, efforts on a climb that allows you to go quite hard for 15-30 minutes, do 2-3 efforts.

Everyone should remember that there's nothing magical about 8:00 exactly. If your effort turns out to be 7:30, great. If you need to go 8:30 to reach the top, that's great too. Try to stay within 10% of the goal time and you'll be golden.

Additionally, you don't have to do a perfect interval of continuing to climb the same climb. You can do this on flat trail, on the road, etc. The only reason to do the same hill is it's easier to get right, but doing it while having a fun trail ride is possible too; you just need to put a bit of thought into the route selection and be mindful of when you need to start and stop pushing. E.g. maybe you need to start pushing on the flat before the climb because the next climb is only 4 minutes long.

This is perfect.

I'll work on some longer intervals. I tried some ladder style intervals today and a couple of six minute VO2 intervals. It's much harder for me to find an appropriate effort to hold for a 6 minute interval. I end up pressing really hard then just trying to hang on for the last half of the interval. I guess that's likely not bad but it's interesting to notice that I really can't gauge effort all that well for shorter presses. I'll spend the next week or two working on VO2 intervals then see if I can incorporate some threshold intervals.

Thanks for the feedback!

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Originally Posted by XtrPickels

There's 2 paths (or a combination thereof) moving forward.
1. Focus purely on "physiology"
2. Focus on the demands of the event.

What is the 100 race, what is the terrain like and what are your limitations?
IF there is brutally steep climbing AND hiking it is where you are going to lose a lot of time, THEN I think that the 1 minute efforts could be great.
OR
IF you are racing short-track / xc AND you need the power to attack for the win, THEN I think the 1 minute efforts could be great.

These 1 minutes efforts are spicy and fun in the sadistic way, However, barring those two situations (or similar) you're likely better off with some longer intervals.

You have plenty of hills around you, and the weather (aside from today) is getting nicer, so feel free to do all your training outside.

Each week, aside from a rest week, I'd do 1 workout focused on VO2 efforts and once focused on threshold efforts.

VO2 type intervals: find a hill that you can put a very hard 8 minute effort in, climb that 3 times to start with 5-8 minutes of recovery.

Threshold, longer, efforts on a climb that allows you to go quite hard for 15-30 minutes, do 2-3 efforts.

Everyone should remember that there's nothing magical about 8:00 exactly. If your effort turns out to be 7:30, great. If you need to go 8:30 to reach the top, that's great too. Try to stay within 10% of the goal time and you'll be golden.

Additionally, you don't have to do a perfect interval of continuing to climb the same climb. You can do this on flat trail, on the road, etc. The only reason to do the same hill is it's easier to get right, but doing it while having a fun trail ride is possible too; you just need to put a bit of thought into the route selection and be mindful of when you need to start and stop pushing. E.g. maybe you need to start pushing on the flat before the climb because the next climb is only 4 minutes long.

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Uggh. I've done several 20 minute tests in the last 5 days with varied results. The first test was with HR monitor 1 (Suunto bluetooth HR chest strap) which seems to be neither accurate nor precise. That one yielded a 229 max HR with an average of 183 during the 20 minute test. Further testing with that HR showed significant anomalies like HR ramping while coasting/standing still or decreasing while hammering up a hill. I would put this down as HR lag except the values are so far off. This has been confirmed with a new battery.

HR monitor 2 (also a Suunto bluetooth HR chest strap) seems to be more precise but I'm questioning accuracy. There is a short, but steep hill about 2/3 through my 20 minute test. It's long enough that I can usually get my HR to max out in the high 170s or low 180s. On today's test I maxed at 167 bpm. Average HR on the 20 minute test was 160bpm. This has also been confirmed with a new battery.

A couple of thoughts (input is welcome/needed):
Up until this, I've been using the optical HR monitor from my Coros Apex. I switched because I figured I would want to watch my watch more closely during training rides and that's hard to do when it's on my wrist.

Precision is probably more important than accuracy. It *seems* as though HR monitor 2 is more precise/reproducible. It is possible that by adjusting my zones for what HR monitor 2 is outputting that I can be successful in proper training, but I would need to set my threshold down closer to 160 vs 170.

Or, I could buy another HR strap and see if that helps.

Seth

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Originally Posted by XtrPickels

Seth- My apologies- I completely missed your questions...

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No worries - looks like you had your hands full on the White Rim. Lots to digest. I'm sure I'll have some questions. Thank you!

Chest heart rate monitors ought to be more accurate than optical units. It's odd that yours are a bit freaky.
The one thing I can think of is ensuring the strap is wet where it contacts your skin. Water or spit are fine.

Monitor 1 is unreasonable and likely inaccurate.
Monitor 2 is reasonable and potentially accurate.

Monitor 2 may seen inaccurate based on your use of the Apex. If that's the case I'd defer to monitor 2. If, however, you've seen higher numbers with monitor 2 before this test, then there are two possibilities.
1. You were tired / glycogen depleted and not able to get to the higher heart rates. (Was your performance as good as before).
2. The HRM was being flaky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tailwind

This is perfect.

I'll work on some longer intervals. I tried some ladder style intervals today and a couple of six minute VO2 intervals. It's much harder for me to find an appropriate effort to hold for a 6 minute interval. I end up pressing really hard then just trying to hang on for the last half of the interval. I guess that's likely not bad but it's interesting to notice that I really can't gauge effort all that well for shorter presses. I'll spend the next week or two working on VO2 intervals then see if I can incorporate some threshold intervals.

Thanks for the feedback!

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For almost all of my efforts longer than 1 minute, I basically expect the following time course.
25% to finish: This is easy, I should have gone harder.
50% to finish: Ok, This is harder than I thought, but I'm strong, I got this.
75% to finish: Oh crap, I'm not sure I can hold this to the end.
Finish: FML

Rinse and repeat.

For anything less than 1 minute, the suckiness should begin immediately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XtrPickels

Chest heart rate monitors ought to be more accurate than optical units. It's odd that yours are a bit freaky.
The one thing I can think of is ensuring the strap is wet where it contacts your skin. Water or spit are fine.

Monitor 1 is unreasonable and likely inaccurate.
Monitor 2 is reasonable and potentially accurate.

Monitor 2 may seen inaccurate based on your use of the Apex. If that's the case I'd defer to monitor 2. If, however, you've seen higher numbers with monitor 2 before this test, then there are two possibilities.
1. You were tired / glycogen depleted and not able to get to the higher heart rates. (Was your performance as good as before).
2. The HRM was being flaky.

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I've always heard that chest monitors are better than optical, so thanks for confirming. Going point on moisture.

I did a longer ride last night with a few hard efforts so it's certainly possible that I am tired/glycogen depleted. I'll give it another shot on Thursday after a rest day tomorrow. Last night (with HR monitor 2) my max HR was 169 although I don't think I was putting out quite the effort that I did on that climb today.

I've put HR monitor 1 in a drawer and will probably just chuck it. Hopefully more info/better data on Thursday.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sethschmautz

I've always heard that chest monitors are better than optical, so thanks for confirming. Going point on moisture.

I did a longer ride last night with a few hard efforts so it's certainly possible that I am tired/glycogen depleted. I'll give it another shot on Thursday after a rest day tomorrow. Last night (with HR monitor 2) my max HR was 169 although I don't think I was putting out quite the effort that I did on that climb today.

I've put HR monitor 1 in a drawer and will probably just chuck it. Hopefully more info/better data on Thursday.

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Sometimes its the strap itself and sometimes its the electronic unit that clips on.
Make sure there's no corrosion at the connect between the two.

I'm technically in week 2 - volume - but I have done like 3 hours of Z2 riding this week. Been super busy at work and all of those other responsibilities in life came to a focal point this week. I'm hoping for a long ride on Saturday, but I'm guessing that doesn't really satisfy the intent of a volume week (get all of your volume on one day).

In a situation where life happens and you're burning the candle at both ends, do you just keep going? Doing a "recovery" week next week doesn't seem right. If anything, this week has been more of a recovery week (and it's driving me a little crazy). I'm currently planning on doing another Intensity week next week to try to kick the cycle off again and see if I have any better luck.

As for the HR monitor - I've continued to use Monitor 2. It seems to be precise with reproducible numbers. I'm not seeing major spikes/dips like I was with Monitor 1. I have set my threshold to 162. One of my ramp tests on Sufferfest over the winter gave me a Threshold value of 162 (although I was using Monitor 1). Using those zones it seems like riding in Z2 (134-143) takes some mental effort to not go too fast. Z3 (144-151) feels like I could go forever. Zone 4 (152-163) seems hard and Zone 5 (163+) seems like I have to work really hard to get into and stay in. With Monitor 2 I'm peaking at about 170 so maybe this is close. I am going to try another 20 minute test next week to see if I get any different data.

Thanks again for the help and let me know if you have any great VO2 or Threshold Interval workouts. I'm pulling what I can from this thread and elsewhere on line.

Seth

There's a lot of info to dig through in this thread. Pickles is killing it! Thanks!

So I feel like I am still struggling with nutrition. I am riding about 3-5x a week. Two of those days are short stack or TH intervals as I progress through race season. MTB specific weight training 1x per week.

My coach was like, "Carbs, carbs, carbs!" Since I am doing enduro racing Z4 sprints between chunk is the name of the game, but am I overdoing the carbs?

Should I ONLY eat carbs night before and during riding?

I am getting stronger, I am getting faster, and my gut seems to be very persistent lol. As I have said before in this thread I am not in this thing totally for vanity, but all this training and riding and I would like to not have this gut. I also feel more tired than I think I should. I get about 8-9 hours of sleep on a good night. Maybe 4 times a week. The rest it's about 6 or 7 hours.

I am eating eggs and some toast with butter/jam in the AM. Lunch is a crap shoot and the hardest meal to me to get while working. I find I am not hungry at all and then by 3pm I am starving. I'm gonna go slam some tuna. Dinner varies as well. I try to go high protein. I'm a single dude who sucks at cooking. Treated myself to 3 big sushi rolls last night. Bison/elk tacos, really loving these things:

https://www.primalkitchen.com/collec...-mushroom-bowl

I pound choc milk or Hammer whey recovery shakes after a ride. Most nights I am starving by 10 or 11pm even if I ate a big dinner at 8pm. I slam glasses of 1% milk and lowfat cottage cheese. Sometimes two Almond/Sunflower butter and jam sandwiches a day. I wake up around 4 or 5am starving pretty much everyday no matter how much I ate the night before.

Are those Whoop things or some kind of wearable glucose monitor worthwhile at this stage?

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

My coach was like, "Carbs, carbs, carbs!" Since I am doing enduro racing Z4 sprints between chunk is the name of the game, but am I overdoing the carbs?
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Are those Whoop things or some kind of wearable glucose monitor worthwhile at this stage?

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It doesn't sound like you're going too crazy with the carbs, waking up at 4am starving every night suggests some level of metabolic dysfunction though. Carbs will help provide more energy for high-intensity efforts but your body will refill your glycogen reserves using protein in 12-24h even on a zero-carb diet.

A continuous glucose monitor could give you insight on what is causing hunger, how much carbohydrate you need, etc. It's been my experience that shorter sprint efforts don't suffer a lot on low-carb, and when you get to the longer threshold/vo2 durations (~4-20min) a high carb intake really helps.

IMO the real benefit of low-carb diets is hunger control, I would give it a try for a while and see how it feels. Based on what you're struggling with it's worth a shot for a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

I slam glasses of 1% milk and lowfat cottage cheese.
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Are those Whoop things or some kind of wearable glucose monitor worthwhile at this stage?

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JFC, low-fat dairy products? Protein is great but it's not fuel. Don't make me post that Dave Tate story again. Are you getting fat? If not, keep stuffing that pie hole :D

Whoop does not measure glucose. Actual continuous glucose monitors are a PITA in general and Rx-only (https://prescriptionhope.com/blog-do...ucose-monitor/). If you're not diabetic your doctor probably won't prescribe one and insurance certainly won; cover it, and they're not cheap IIRC.

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Originally Posted by bean

It doesn't sound like you're going too crazy with the carbs, waking up at 4am starving every night suggests some level of metabolic dysfunction though. Carbs will help provide more energy for high-intensity efforts but your body will refill your glycogen reserves using protein in 12-24h even on a zero-carb diet.

A continuous glucose monitor could give you insight on what is causing hunger, how much carbohydrate you need, etc. It's been my experience that shorter sprint efforts don't suffer a lot on low-carb, and when you get to the longer threshold/vo2 durations (~4-20min) a high carb intake really helps.

IMO the real benefit of low-carb diets is hunger control, I would give it a try for a while and see how it feels. Based on what you're struggling with it's worth a shot for a few weeks.

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What does metabolic dysfunction mean? I am not processing the food I eat correctly? Your saying I should try delaying my eating of food to quell the crazy hunger spells I get.....re-train my body? Is this the same as intermittent fasting? Probably not a good idea with the biggest race of the season in 2 weeks though.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

JFC, low-fat dairy products? Protein is great but it's not fuel. Don't make me post that Dave Tate story again. Are you getting fat? If not, keep stuffing that pie hole :D

Whoop does not measure glucose. Actual continuous glucose monitors are a PITA in general and Rx-only (https://prescriptionhope.com/blog-do...ucose-monitor/). If you're not diabetic your doctor probably won't prescribe one and insurance certainly won; cover it, and they're not cheap IIRC.

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I feel like I have an excess amount of belly fat considering I have almost no fat anywhere else on my body. If I am low or no carb I slim down pretty quickly. Maybe I just need to do more core workouts to tighten up down there. IDK.

Oh course I look at all the other racers at my same level and all of them are zero gut and look like pros. A lot of it may be my latin body type too.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

I feel like I have an excess amount of belly fat considering I have almost no fat anywhere else on my body. If I am low or no carb I slim down pretty quickly. Maybe I just need to do more core workouts to tighten up down there. IDK.

Oh course I look at all the other racers at my same level and all of them are zero gut and look like pros. A lot of it may be my latin body type too.

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Could definitely be genetics at play, or maybe your past life that was heavy on the sauce, or maybe your cortisol is elevated due to your training load, or all of the above. Regardless, the program that builds you into the fastest racer you can be won't necessarily be the one that gives you a physique that would go on the cover of Men's Health. I'd focus on racing right now and worry about aesthetics in the off-season.

Lol yes. Maybe I am still burning off the 10 Million beers I drank in college.

What is excess belly fat? You can't see your six pack, or you're hauling a pooch?

I think I said this up-thread, but trying to train for performance while trying to be hyper lean can be a recipe for failure. It's really hard to properly fuel a heavy training regimen while simultaneously worrying about how much you're eating. If you're hungry, you should eat. You're also gonna get mixed responses on here. Some people just have a six pack no matter what, others have to fight for it. Some people are okay with pounding sugar and processed carbs, others focus on eating whole foods and even limiting carbs. I think you need to pick a nutrition plan and try to stick with it. If that plan is lower on carbs, then you should be eating a fat to make up the energy deficit.

My n=1 anecdote. I'm generally a pretty lean person, and getting down to fighting weight isn't difficult, but getting to the six pack level is a bitch. It's only a couple extra pounds of fat, but it's a battle, and I've completely jacked my cortisol levels trying to get there while putting in a ton of miles and workouts. The result is constant hunger, shitty sleep, and compounding stress levels. I eventually gave up on the abs and just ate and everything got easier, and my training was more effective. Interestingly enough, I kind of stumbled into "abs" by not training. I was working my ass off to complete a home remodel and wasn't exercising at all, not even a little bit, but I was on my feet for 12+ hours a day and barely eating because I was focused on getting it done in time. I'm kind of over aesthetics now, but if I want to get really lean now, I cut way back on any moderate/intense exercise and instead go for walks and easy hikes and do mini workouts. It's way, way easier to be strict about food when your body doesn't desperately need lots of it.

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

<snip> worry about aesthetics in the off-season.

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As a man, worrying about body "aesthetics" is a fool's errand. :D

I am definitely rocking a little pooch these days, but I am also way faster and stronger so I guess it's just part of the deal.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

I am definitely rocking a little pooch these days, but I am also way faster and stronger so I guess it's just part of the deal.

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Just call it your "primordial pouch." :D

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

What does metabolic dysfunction mean? I am not processing the food I eat correctly? Your saying I should try delaying my eating of food to quell the crazy hunger spells I get.....re-train my body? Is this the same as intermittent fasting? Probably not a good idea with the biggest race of the season in 2 weeks though.

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It typically means chronically elevated insulin or glucose. It's a big subject, lots of interesting reading to be done and also lots of quackery on both sides of the carbs-good vs. carbs-bad discussion - if you start seeing things that suggest the rules of thermodynamics don't apply ignore that author. Don't make any big changes with your biggest race of the year coming up quick, afterwords I think it's worth giving low-carb a trial run if for no other reason than to see how it feels (I think most people would benefit from at least trying it for a month, even if just to see and learn how you respond to it).

IMO pairing IF with low-carb makes it really easy to drop some extra pounds, low-carb controls hunger and IF tightens up your eating window such that it's harder to overeat. There's no magic to it, just makes it easier to eat fewer calories in a day than if you're having high-carb snacks/meals every few hours and fighting the insulin/glucose/hunger rollercoaster. If you decide to give it a try and get one of those "omg I'm going to die if I don't eat something right now" spells have a cup of black coffee, or go for a walk for 15 minutes and get your mind off it and you'll probably forget you were hungry in the first place.

Thinking about tires quite a bit as I’m training so I figure I’ll ask here.

Looking for a tire combo that will work well for a 100km and 100 miler I am doing this summer. I have ridden a lot of maxxis tires especially on the more aggressive side of the spectrum, usually running DHF’s and Aggressors. I know less about XC tires. The last races I did I used a 2.4 ardent and a 2.35 ikon. I’m wanting to drop a little weight and some rolling resistance.

Currently running a forecaster up front that I’m pretty happy with and a Recon 2.4 in the back. I’m thinking about trying a Recon Race rear tire in the rear (or even going as crazy as an Aspen). Any thoughts or feedback?

I have a set of specialized Fast Tracks that I’ve used on occasion that are ‘fine’ and feel fast but I’m always a little sketched out by the front grip. I had one crash last year on them where the front washed out an i had an AC joint separation. It also probably could be an option to try to get some more miles on these and get more comfortable with the grip up front (sidewalls seem to fold over a bit as well).

I’m open to general advice / feedback or recommendations. The first course will be loose over hard conditions, which is part of why I like the forecaster.

Very much depends on the terrain and how much you like sliding through tricky terrain. For Maxxis XC tires, I was always a fan of Ardent Race up front and Ikon rear. Haven’t ridden a Rekon, but looks like a combo of the two I think. Buddy of mine runs 2.4 Aspens and cushcore at real low pressures (like 16/18 @ 155lbs), I’ve ridden with him setup like that and he claims the tire wraps around the rocks for great traction. Haven’t done that myself but as long as you take clean lines (he does), seems to work well for a potentially big rolling resistance boost. Also will throw in the Vitoria Mezcal is my favorite XC rear tire I’ve ever run.


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The Mezcal is on the short list of tires I’m interested in. I’d thought about running them front and rear as a similar tread to the Fast Tracks but stronger sidewalls. I’m having a hard time finding 2.35’s but may give them a try. It’s hard dropping $120-150 on set of tires... but I guess they’ll get used.

I know a lot of people like the Ardent race but I am a little worried about grip for the first race which is decomposing granite soil. It may be a worth a try though. Weight is about the same as the forecaster but it’s likely to roll faster.

I have a CushCore XC insert I could toss into an Aspen which is what I had been thinking would be heavy but could be efficient for longer miles. I may also have to try testing that setup to see how it feels. I’m on a full suspension XC rig so that could be a pretty smooth setup.

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Originally Posted by VTskibum

Very much depends on the terrain and how much you like sliding through tricky terrain. For Maxxis XC tires, I was always a fan of Ardent Race up front and Ikon rear. Haven’t ridden a Rekon, but looks like a combo of the two I think. Buddy of mine runs 2.4 Aspens and cushcore at real low pressures (like 16/18 @ 155lbs), I’ve ridden with him setup like that and he claims the tire wraps around the rocks for great traction. Haven’t done that myself but as long as you take clean lines (he does), seems to work well for a potentially big rolling resistance boost. Also will throw in the Vitoria Mezcal is my favorite XC rear tire I’ve ever run.


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