Another What Car Thread: Big-ish SUV's (or Minivan?)

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

I'd guess the lift itself is responsible for about 1mpg on the highway. But I added a very non-aero big ass roof box, heavier tires, and an awning at the same time -- all told a loss of about 2mpg.

We leave our bed setup in all the time except when we need to haul -- since it sits behind the third row and doesn't take up space. Also have a little kitchen setup (https://imgur.com/a/EKr7c0m) that stays in and we can still add one of the 2nd row seats though that is rare. Kitchen takes about 3min to go in/out.

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Good to know, thanks!

I might have to steal the kitchen idea. I currently have a westfalia-inspired bed in mine that can turn into a chair, and a sliding drawer in the trunk for cooking in the rain. I like that I can slide skis in under the bed and they are both inside the car and out of the way. And I like that I can fit a pile of whitewater kayaks in the back, even with the bed frame in place.

I'd be really tempted to trade in for the hybrid sienna if they hadn't fucked things up with the non removable 2nd row. I'm sure I'm not the only one using their van like a pickup/camper so it's an unfortunate design choice.

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Add the lift kit to the sienna


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FWIW you can remove the 2nd row in the 3rd gen. It's just the putting them back in that is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Danno

I have an 06 Sequoia and love it. It's a road trip beast. But it gets abysmal gas mileage and I don't think they've improved much over the years.

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I think they've gotten a bit better by going to direct fuel injection and better aerodynamics. Something like 15mpg combined.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

FWIW you can remove the 2nd row in the 3rd gen. It's just the putting them back in that is the problem.

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The video(s) of a guy removing the second row is pretty wild. Lots of wires for the airbags and some other stuff etc. I stopped watching. The seats do slide way forward, but still, we kinda like the way the Odyssey turns into a hauler so easily.

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Originally Posted by plugboots

The video(s) of a guy removing the second row is pretty wild. Lots of wires for the airbags and some other stuff etc. I stopped watching. The seats do slide way forward, but still, we kinda like the way the Odyssey turns into a hauler so easily.

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For sure—it’s one reason I went gen 3 with the new gen so close on the horizon. We roll mostly with middle seats out and camper mode in. But last week I pulled it out in 10min, got hauled a fuck ton of flagstone home in a bed bigger than most pickups.

For anyone thinking Sienna—if you’re gonna load it up plan on airbags in the rear to prevent sag. <$100 and installs in < 2 beers

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

For sure—it’s one reason I went gen 3 with the new gen so close on the horizon. We roll mostly with middle seats out and camper mode in. But last week I pulled it out in 10min, got hauled a fuck ton of flagstone home in a bed bigger than most pickups.

For anyone thinking Sienna—if you’re gonna load it up plan on airbags in the rear to prevent sag. <$100 and installs in < 2 beers

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That’s interesting about the airbags. I’ve never looked into it. I’ve just let the sag happen and hope for the best :)

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

I think they've gotten a bit better by going to direct fuel injection and better aerodynamics. Something like 15mpg combined.

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A real difference maker over the 13-14 I get. ;)

It's still a great car. But whenever I replace mine - not anytime soon - much better mpg will be a goal. 15 won't cut it!

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Originally Posted by Danno

A real difference maker over the 13-14 I get. ;)

It's still a great car. But whenever I replace mine - not anytime soon - much better mpg will be a goal. 15 won't cut it!

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I almost got the new plug in Wrangler Unlimited this year because I'm getting 16-17 in my GX. But we went back to full electric on our around-town car instead.

By the time the 4.7 gives out, I bet there will be a half dozen replacements available with 40+ mpg.

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The 5.7 in the tundra/sequoia is a hog, but has treated us well since purchasing in 2013.

It’s got a great 4wd system with center locking diff and fulltime awd options but ours averages mid 14 mpg. It goes negative when we tow. Its also got a smallish gas tank although the tundra has bigger tank options

Ancient platform and the next gen update is just around the corner. I am expecting a hybrid v6 option and likely full electric in the next gen tundra/sequoia and could get interested

We easily pack this thing to gills with our family of 4 and large mutt.

Attachment 376551

It’s only been one winter and six months of duty but this Honda AWD Turbo is pulling me away from SUVs.

Clearance. That’s the only deciding factor in 2021 as far as I can tell. Maybe towing heavy rigs is also a factor.

A tunable turbo adding 30% HP & Torque over factory. A paddle-shifting CVT on AWD. 35 mpg. Massive interior space and malleable second and third row seating.

Attachment 376723
Attachment 376724

Shit shreds, yo.

I'm in the pro minivan camp. I bought a Transit Connect before I even had a kid and am currently in the middle of a 3000 mile, dirt road heavy road trip. Nothing beats the cargo convenience of a vans big square rear area and low load height.

If I replaced the Transit Connect now, I'd get a new Sienna or Pacifica. Theyve made some compromises in cargo space shape for aero, but the drivetrains are really compelling.

I might stick a 2in lift on though if the new ones get good reviews. I've VERY carefully picked my way through a couple of spots on this trip. If they made a Transit Connect "Outback" I'd be all over it. And so would my wife. She was initially skeptical but has been very much win over by the mini-van form factor

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Lovely wife has been deciding on a replacement ride for a couple years now. Field has slowly been narrowed to the Grand Cherokee. I’m trying to hold out for the 4xe version that supposed to come out this fall. 40 mile electric only range, good base gas mileage, more power than a diesel when the battery kicks in. Silent off-roading. Seems cool.

We will have to load that thing up in full GOTOS mode for our full family trips with grown kids though cause it’s kinda small compared to some SUVs. Hitch mount 4 bike rack with box on top I’m the summer, hitch mount platform and skis in the box in the winter for big trips. Still far better than a minivan for me for sure.


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the purpose of the SUV is to distance ones self from having owned a minivan

Get a wagon ;)


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So minivans aren’t for the gays anymore I guess.


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Originally Posted by gaijin

It’s only been one winter and six months of duty but this Honda AWD Turbo is pulling me away from SUVs.

Clearance. That’s the only deciding factor in 2021 as far as I can tell. Maybe towing heavy rigs is also a factor.


A tunable turbo adding 30% HP & Torque over factory. A paddle-shifting CVT on AWD. 35 mpg. Massive interior space and malleable second and third row seating.

Attachment 376723
Attachment 376724

Shit shreds, yo.

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I'd love one, ship it over.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

So minivans aren’t for the gays anymore I guess.


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its really all about what the mrs is driving when she drops Bree & Chipper off at that toney private school

she must not forget to pickup Bree at ballet,

or was it pickup the brie and a case of proseco for the cocktail party or wtf ?

life is so uncertain with a head full of mother's little helper but the burning question is

which SUV is better for navigating strip malls

Wait— what’s ghey again? Is it Minivans or SUVs that equate to tiny penises? I have a tiny penis and a minivan and three gorgeous kids.

Regardless— I’m so happy to no longer be muscling a big rig around. That said— I live in Japan. Roads are smaller, slower.

I don’t know if this class of vehicle would win in my Tahoe life. I’m pretty sure that a Tesla model Y or Cybertruck would be my next Tahoe vehicle.

I guess I’m just confused as to why people even buy Land Cruisers if they don’t drive on ocean beaches, logging roads, or tow things and have disposable income to pay for such shitty mileage. .

I just don’t get it. Aside from hobby. The hobby I get. 25 years ago I built a ‘72 K5 Blazer. That was a hobby. That made sense. That got even worse mileage than anything else on the road today. No fucking way in hell would my hobby be my daily in 2021. You could have two vehicles for the price of one.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Passport...

There is a button for snow driving, so you’re good.

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Does it actually do anything? (other than illuminate a light on the dash)

And is that light rainbow, or is that just in the minivans?

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Does it actually do anything? (other than illuminate a light on the dash)

And is that light rainbow, or is that just in the minivans?

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For people who don’t adapt their driving to snow and ice and continue to drive as normal, the button helps slow down acceleration preventing tire spins, may do other stuff too but not sure.

If you press the rainbow button it just opens the trunk really wide for some reason.


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Well, people like to put big packages back there.

Minivans can be great, particularly if you find yourself hauling 4+ people around often. And many people who have SUVs or CUVs would probably be better off with a minivan. If I had 3 kids instead of two, an older Sienna would be high on my list. And, to be fair, I think that Toast's situation, and so the minivan talk is very relevant to 5+ person families. That said, I think their utility is being a little over-trumpeted here.

There are currently two AWD minivans offered in the American market, and they both have low ground clearances, which matters for those who need it. I'm sure the Toyota will last forever, but it starts around $45k, looks like a Decepticon disguised as a loaf of bread, and, most importantly, you can't remove the second row, which is an automatic deal breaker for me. The other is a somewhat hard-to-find $40k+ Chrysler, which may or may not send shivers down your spine.

The Cybertruck and Electric F-150 look pretty great on paper. I'm also curious as to what Toyota is going to do with the new 4Runner in 2023, especially given that the super old-school 4Runners are still selling like crazy.

If I were in Japan, I'd get a used Skyline R34 with a roof box. The kids would be uncomfortable, but dad would enjoy himself and travel times would be cut in half. :D

I don't think many cars' "snow modes" are helpful to anyone who drives in snow regularly. I hate Honda and Subaru's nanny-controls in deep or slushy snow. I find myself turning off the traction control, which hinders much more than it helps. In certain kinds of snow you need to drive as if you were in a boat, where the ability to turn is aided, not hindered, by using the throttle.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Well, people like to put big packages back there.

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Oh it’s great for wood.


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Originally Posted by AKbruin

Minivans can be great, particularly if you find yourself hauling 4+ people around often. And many people who have SUVs or CUVs would probably be better off with a minivan. If I had 3 kids instead of two, an older Sienna would be high on my list. And, to be fair, I think that Toast's situation, and so the minivan talk is very relevant to 5+ person families. That said, I think their utility is being a little over-trumpeted here.

There are currently two AWD minivans offered in the American market, and they both have low ground clearances, which matters for those who need it. I'm sure the Toyota will last forever, but it starts around $45k, looks like a Decepticon disguised as a loaf of bread, and, most importantly, you can't remove the second row, which is an automatic deal breaker for me. The other is a somewhat hard-to-find $40k+ Chrysler, which may or may not send shivers down your spine.

The Cybertruck and Electric F-150 look pretty great on paper. I'm also curious as to what Toyota is going to do with the new 4Runner in 2023, especially given that the super old-school 4Runners are still selling like crazy.

If I were in Japan, I'd get a used Skyline R34 with a roof box. The kids would be uncomfortable, but dad would enjoy himself and travel times would be cut in half. :D

I don't think many cars' "snow modes" are helpful to anyone who drives in snow regularly. I hate Honda and Subaru's nanny-controls in deep or slushy snow. I find myself turning off the traction control, which hinders much more than it helps. In certain kinds of snow you need to drive as if you were in a boat, where the ability to turn is aided, not hindered, by using the throttle.

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The Sienna starts at 35k.

Also I'm not sure ground clearance is THAT big a deal for most people. I spent a lot of grad school driving a lower clearance car to the ski hill and in the last week I drove my similarly clearance Transit Connect up to Hoodoo pass via about 3 hours of Idaho's finest first roads. Then I found out it was closed and drove a similar time back down and went to Missoula a different way. I'm not sure a lot of people ask more of their vehicle.

That being said, if I got a Sienna or Pacifica, I'd seriously consider putting a very small lift on it.

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Originally Posted by AKbruin

I don't think many cars' "snow modes" are helpful to anyone who drives in snow regularly. I hate Honda and Subaru's nanny-controls in deep or slushy snow. I find myself turning off the traction control, which hinders much more than it helps. In certain kinds of snow you need to drive as if you were in a boat, where the ability to turn is aided, not hindered, by using the throttle.

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Same here. I even turn that stuff on in my tacoma. But I run real snow tires.

I think the majority of people buying swiss army knife suvs with "safety" systems, and oem all seasons are just using them as cars anyway, and have no actual clue beyond the marketing copy.

The snow mode on the Honda is good for my wife. Grew up in AZ and might drive 1 time in the snow per year so no matter how much I try to teach her it doesn’t matter because she gets no real life practice, she just freaks out.

The physics of winter driving inertia go in one ear and out the other……


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Originally Posted by MarcusBrody

The Sienna starts at 35k.

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That's the base FWD Sienna. The AWD Sienna is much more expensive, at least within a 200 mile radius of Tahoe.

This isn't an indictment against you, but a rant about crappy automotive reporting, but comparing cars by the their lowest MSRP is often misleading. Take the 4Runner for example. It's starting MSRP is under $37k. But that's for a RWD model with very few amenities. It's basically for a version of a 4Runner that no one sells because an RWD 4Runner is pretty dumb. Also, some manufacturers offer an overly low MSRP to curry flattering reviews and comparisons. 4Runners, for example, often sell for well above MSRP. And so do Kia Tellurides. So comparing a Kia Telluride with a $42k MSRP to, say, a Mazda CX-9 with a $42k MSRP isn't comparing apples to apples. The Tellurides go for like $5k above MSRP, and very few dealers are offering the lower-trim versions anyway.

I lifted my FWD Sienna (which runs snows in winter and AT in summer) because clearance is more regularly an issue for me than traction of a heavy van with snow tires. If I lived in a massively snowy environment (i.e. not Colorado) or lived in a rural spot where road maintenance was less or my own, or lived in CA, my calculus would've been different.

The clearance certainly helps in parking lots on big snow days. And it is especially helpful in accessing trailheads and dispersed camping in summer. I also carry a set of chains that I've never used for truly heinous conditions -- and a set of traction boards which mostly serve as leveling devices at camp.

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

...no matter how much I try to teach her it doesn’t matter because she gets no real life practice, she just freaks out.

The physics of winter driving inertia go in one ear and out the other……

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Literally everything I say to my wife goes in one ear and out the other.

The passport and highlander are basically the short list to replace my wife's outback. What she wants is easy to drive, good visibility, and cargo space for two 55 lb dogs, and other assorted junk. (no kids)

What I want is to be able to drive the thing for more than an hour without wanting to blow my brains out (my chief complaint with that whole segment is the tin can effect). Both the outback and our old crosstrek are solidly in that category.

Beyond that, mileage in the 20s and comfortable seats would be nice.

I believe Toyota sells more rwd sequoias than 4wd versions. I’m not sure about the 4Runner.

I regularly see non-lifted awd sienna’s at the end of rough roads in the tahoe NF and Plumas NF. I know one of those specific siennas because it belongs to friends. They use all season tires in the summer and don’t have a spare. I am not totally clear if they fully get the risk they’re running with that scenario, but they have never had an issue with a tire blowout after regularly doing it for over a decade. Having driven those same roads in a fwd sienna (same clearance) and a land cruiser, I can’t stomach the thought of driving a brand new minivan on those roads because you’re gonna scrape the bottom on rocks, it’s inevitable. There’s no way around it. That family also runs snows in the winter and gets after it in the general tahoe area. One of the parents works part time at a ski hill and loads the van full with people and gear for a job-required 8am arrival.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

The passport and highlander are basically the short list to replace my wife's outback. What she wants is easy to drive, good visibility, and cargo space for two 55 lb dogs, and other assorted junk. (no kids)

What I want is to be able to drive the thing for more than an hour without wanting to blow my brains out (my chief complaint with that whole segment is the tin can effect). Both the outback and our old crosstrek are solidly in that category.

Beyond that, mileage in the 20s and comfortable seats would be nice.

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From my limited experience, both the Passport and Highlander are comfortable to drive. Neither is going to drive like a sports car, but they are perfectly cromulent on the road. My issue with the Outback and the Crosstrek is their underwhelming engines. Driving uphill at elevation, as I do everyday, in a naturally aspirated 4-cylinder is fairly painful. I think either the Passport or Highlander will be fine. The Passport has fairly nifty acceleration. The Highlander Hybrid that we tried didn't vibe with any of us, but the 35 mpg is pretty outstanding. You might check out the CX-9 too. It has less cargo capacity but the nicest interior of those three.

Our Sienna (AWD, XLE trim, a couple add ons here and there) was about $41k. Not cheap, but quite a bit cheaper than I expected. Especially since used AWD Siennas were going for ~$33k with 50,000 miles on them.

And I'm entirely skeptical that all of you are regularly driving roads that require substantial clearance. I drive on forest service roads a few times a week and the Sienna would get up all of them without issue. The paint would get scratched up from brush on the sides, but the undercarriage would be just fine.

Sure, if you're looking to have a daily driver that's also capable of going 4 wheeling in Moab, the Sienna isn't it. But pretty much any vehicle that's capable of 4 wheeling in Moab is gonna suck as a daily driver.

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Literally everything I say to my wife goes in one ear and out the other.

The passport and highlander are basically the short list to replace my wife's outback. What she wants is easy to drive, good visibility, and cargo space for two 55 lb dogs, and other assorted junk. (no kids)

What I want is to be able to drive the thing for more than an hour without wanting to blow my brains out (my chief complaint with that whole segment is the tin can effect). Both the outback and our old crosstrek are solidly in that category.

Beyond that, mileage in the 20s and comfortable seats would be nice.

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Well I’ve had both those vehicles (older Highlander) and both meet those criteria. Probably down to test driving each to determine.


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New car shopping based on MSRP or dealer asking prices greater than MSRP is a good way to pay too much.

Invoice is a better comparison tool. Today's market, probably going to have to pay more than invoice, but I'd expect negotiated prices to return to normal by fall.

And AKB - so why not another Tundra or a Sequoia?

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Originally Posted by AKbruin

That's the base FWD Sienna. The AWD Sienna is much more expensive, at least within a 200 mile radius of Tahoe.

This isn't an indictment against you, but a rant about crappy automotive reporting, but comparing cars by the their lowest MSRP is often misleading. Take the 4Runner for example. It's starting MSRP is under $37k. But that's for a RWD model with very few amenities. It's basically for a version of a 4Runner that no one sells because an RWD 4Runner is pretty dumb. Also, some manufacturers offer an overly low MSRP to curry flattering reviews and comparisons. 4Runners, for example, often sell for well above MSRP. And so do Kia Tellurides. So comparing a Kia Telluride with a $42k MSRP to, say, a Mazda CX-9 with a $42k MSRP isn't comparing apples to apples. The Tellurides go for like $5k above MSRP, and very few dealers are offering the lower-trim versions anyway.

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You can get the base with AWD. It's 36400 MSRP (probably plus destination). I don't know what the stock is like around Tahoe, but I'm sure you could order one or track one down via Costco or similar. I almost took a look at one in the Vegas area recently that was advertised around 37 I think, but it sold quickly .

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Lifted AWD Sienna will probably be my next car, maybe a hybrid. Our XC70 is feeling small these days with 2 kids and a dog, plus friends, grandparents, etc. The 3 row CUV's aren't much bigger, they just cram more seats in, and most have less ground clearance than my Volvo. I don't want a 15 mpg Suburban or Sequoia. And, yes, I need the lift as I frequently drive on dirt roads before they are plowed in the winter and shitty, rutted dirt roads in the spring. I've tried doing with an AWD Volvo V50. It didn't work. I need to be able to drive on fucked up roads and 8" of fresh but a truck-based SUV is overkill.

There's a lot of softroading stuff that you can get away with in a lower-clearance AWD, but to bodywhomper's point, it can be super sketchy. I feel like I've pushed my CR-V and wife's Forester to their near limits, and it's kind of an anxiety ridden experience. Every time something tags the undercarriage, you're worried that it's gonna be a $1k mechanic bill. And I'm also always concerned I'm gonna get stuck several miles up a remote dirt road, which would be a nightmare and a hefty tow bill. And there are a good number of trailheads that I can't do unless I recruit a friend with a better 4x4. If we're just talking washboard dirt or gravel, which is what a lot of people consider "off road," then clearance is less important (although firm suspensions and low-profile tires still suck).

And clearance helps in deep snow. It can make the difference between skiing 18" powder before 7 a.m. or sitting in my house until 11 a.m. waiting for the plow to come clear my street while lower-elevation denizens track-out my shit. It's also helpful when Caltrans/NVTrans hasn't plowed the turnout to a backcountry trailhead. I can't speak for others, but these things are pretty important to me.

FWIW, there are 34 AWD Siennas within 200 miles of me, which includes the Bay Area, and the MSRP on the three cheapest are all over $43k, and it looks like most people are buying them for a little over MSRP. I read that with the microchip issue, there's high demand and little supply, so manufacturers and dealers are trying to stock higher trim versions in any remotely popular model these days, which might explain it. Anyhow, the bigger point I was trying to make was that there are few options for AWD minivans stateside.

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Originally Posted by AKbruin

There's a lot of softroading stuff that you can get away with in a lower-clearance AWD, but to bodywhomper's point, it can be super sketchy. I feel like I've pushed my CR-V and wife's Forester to their near limits, and it's kind of an anxiety ridden experience. Every time something tags the undercarriage, you're worried that it's gonna be a $1k mechanic bill. And I'm also always concerned I'm gonna get stuck several miles up a remote dirt road, which would be a nightmare and a hefty tow bill. And there are a good number of trailheads that I can't do unless I recruit a friend with a better 4x4. If were just talking washboard dirt or gravel, which is what a lot of people consider "off road," then clearance is less important (although firm suspensions and low-profile tires still suck).

And clearance helps in deep snow. It can make the difference between skiing 18" powder before 7 a.m. or sitting in my house until 11 a.m. waiting for the plow to come clear my street while lower-elevation denizens track-out my shit. It's also helpful when Caltrans/NVTrans hasn't plowed the turnout to a backcountry trailhead. I can't speak for others, but these things are pretty important to me.

FWIW, there are 34 AWD Siennas within 200 miles of me, which includes the Bay Area, and the MSRP on the three cheapest are all over $43k, and it looks like most people are buying them for a little over MSRP. I read that with the microchip issue, there's high demand and little supply, so manufacturers and dealers are trying to stock higher trim versions in any remotely popular model these days, which might explain it. Anyhow, the bigger point I was trying to make was that there are few options for AWD minivans stateside.

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I definitely agree with the anxiety part. I'm very careful when driving my low clearance vehicle on bad roads and have turned back multiple times that I wouldn't with higher clearance vehicle.

I suspect that you're right with the stocking higher profit, higher trim models when there is limited demand. If you need a new car today it's definitely an issue but if you can wait a few months (like I plan too unless my old commuter dies), I don't think it will be a big issue getting a lower trim AWD.

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Originally Posted by AKbruin

From my limited experience, both the Passport and Highlander are comfortable to drive. Neither is going to drive like a sports car, but they are perfectly cromulent on the road. My issue with the Outback and the Crosstrek is their underwhelming engines.

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I hear you on that, and IMO Subaru has been going in the wrong direction for some time now. I like the CX9, but my wife isn't enamored with it. The slope of the rear roofline goes against what she's looking for, which is more of a box shaped back.

High-hybrid would great for all the around town stuff my wife does. Be curious what the droning factor would be driving up the mountain road (I have some experience with previous Toyota hybrids).

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Originally Posted by AK47bp

Well I’ve had both those vehicles (older Highlander) and both meet those criteria. Probably down to test driving each to determine.

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Or it'll come down to which will take a bigger load in the rear.