Fucking drivers!!!

The reality is that the outcome matters, the "harm" matters, in criminal trials. Not just intent. I go into a store to rob it and someone dies in the course of that robbery, I may be guilty of felony murder. Even if I didn't directly cause the death, don't have a gun, and didn't ever intend for anyone to get hurt. We have a crime of attempted murder that is different from murder. Our laws recognize that two identical acts may deserve different punishments based on the harm that directly results from those acts.

So maybe all she did was recklessly drive, or "fail to maintain a lane". If a cop was following a driver, saw them swerve into the shoulder and pulled the driver over (probably to check for intoxication), if the driver was sober that ticket might be all they get, if that. But the same actions, if it results in death, may deserve a different charge and punishment. That's how the law works, there's nothing odd about it.

I've been in the desert....

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

The lady is not acting like someone who isn't going to be mentally fucked forever. Some may prefer physical prison, but I'd wager she now is trapped in a mental one for life.

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This is pure speculation. All we know is that she stopped and cooperated with police.

The idea that your own guilt is punishment enough if you kill someone through negligence blows my mind. I already said earlier that prison may not be appropriate in this case, but she should have a felony on her record, have her driver's license revoked, and pay some sort of serious penance to society (community service, etc.).

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

In this case it appears she only broke a rule determined by society to result in a ticket currently.

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Bull. Shit.

Prosecutors have clear grounds to charge her with manslaughter but have chosen not to. If you hit and kill a cop on the shoulder issuing a ticket your ass is going to jail. If the driver were a thuggy-looking black or latino guy he'd be in jail. Nice white lady kills a faggy cyclist though and suddenly she's an equal victim.

Other drivers refusing to pass a bicyclist on a busy street when the rider is well within his 4' bike lane, and the 12' wide car lane is wide open. Some people shouldn't be allowed to drive a car if they have such a lack of spatial awareness. This happens too damn much and pisses everyone off including the cyclist who im sure isn't stoked that some Tesla SUV is riding their ass at 10mph on a 35mph street.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Other drivers refusing to pass a bicyclist on a busy street when the rider is well within his 4' bike lane, and the 12' wide car lane is wide open. Some people shouldn't be allowed to drive a car if they have such a lack of spatial awareness. This happens too damn much and pisses everyone off including the cyclist who im sure isn't stoked that some Tesla SUV is riding their ass at 10mph on a 35mph street.

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^^^^ this and drivers who, trying to be courteous, stop for bikes at intersections where the car has the right of way and they ( the driver stopping for the bike) would not ever stop to let a car go. Bikes on the road are vehicles and I expect to be treated like one. Even if you stop (wrongly) for a bike to cross, the guy going the other direction in his car might not and it causes a dangerous situation.

No DUI, no texting, stayed at the scene and cooperated with police, probably feels terrible about it. Thus, any shitty lawyer should be able to get the reckless homicide charges dismissed. Citation for failure to stop at a stop sign should be issued, though.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/children-s...ry?id=58848002

I quickly scanned the thread to see if this was already posted. Sorry if its a repost.
This happened a while ago and driver was fined, but the owner of this video just recently released it.

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

I quickly scanned the thread to see if this was already posted. Sorry if its a repost.
This happened a while ago and driver was fined, but the owner of this video just recently released it.

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Just fined? That's attempted murder all day long. Not kidding.

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Originally Posted by huckbucket

Just fined? That's attempted murder all day long. Not kidding.

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From what I read the fines and court case was all decided on verbal accounts. This video was not admitted as evidence, and has since been released.

Even with the video an attempted murder charge seems unlikely, because there's an adult on a bicycle involved. Randomly attack someone with a baseball bat who slowed you down on the sidewalk or getting through Costco and see if you walk away with a fine.

I wouldn't vote to convict for attempted murder based on that video.

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Originally Posted by Danno

I wouldn't vote to convict for attempted murder based on that video.

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Because they may not have intended them to die?

How about assault with a deadly weapon?

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Because they may not have intended them to die?

How about assault with a deadly weapon?

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Assault with a deadly weapon, absolutely. I haven't researched the elements for attempted murder, but at that speed, doesn't look like he was trying to murder the cyclist, nor does death seem like a reasonable outcome of that collision.

I'm not defending the driver AT ALL, I'd readily convict for many offenses, just not attempted murder.

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Originally Posted by Danno

Assault with a deadly weapon, absolutely. I haven't researched the elements for attempted murder, but at that speed, doesn't look like he was trying to murder the cyclist, nor does death seem like a reasonable outcome of that collision.

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Fair enough, though I'd argue that death is a reasonably probable outcome of that collision. Pure luck that it didn't end much worse. Good thing it was Oz and guns weren't involved....

Well, this should give the warm and fuzzies

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/12/...-the-business/

Does this go in the fuck the police thread, or fuck drivers thread?

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/07/...ing-red-light/

Or more fun reading on why it's not just drivers fault, but the legal instiutions that effectively mandate cars:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...s4CbVotJjsQ6xQ

How bout the fuck e-bikes thread?

But really, id like to see video of the incident before i can accurately judge if the officers actions were egregious or totally fine.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

But really, id like to see video of the incident before i can accurately judge if the officers actions were egregious or totally fine.

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It doesn't matter if the cyclist ran red lights -- hitting someone with your car intentionally is using deadly force. Running a red light in NYC isn't even a misdemeanor -- it's a simple traffic infraction.

There are strict guidelines on when the use of deadly force is authorized. The person in question has to pose an imminent threat to life or permanent injury to others. Imminent doesn't mean "they could hypothetically cause an accident" -- it means they would have likely done something.

Oh, and it wasn't an ebike. Dude is pedaling a 40# city bike -- at probably like 10-12mph.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

But really, id like to see video of the incident before i can accurately judge if the officers actions were egregious or totally fine.

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There is no possible scenario here where the cop's actions were "totally fine."

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Oh, and it wasn't an ebike. Dude is pedaling a 40# city bike -- at probably like 10-12mph.

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And riding that tank of a bike in NYC in July and doesn't even appear sweaty. 10-12 mph seems very generous.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

It doesn't matter if the cyclist ran red lights -- hitting someone with your car intentionally is using deadly force. Running a red light in NYC isn't even a misdemeanor -- it's a simple traffic infraction.

There are strict guidelines on when the use of deadly force is authorized. The person in question has to pose an imminent threat to life or permanent injury to others. Imminent doesn't mean "they could hypothetically cause an accident" -- it means they would have likely done something.

Oh, and it wasn't an ebike. Dude is pedaling a 40# city bike -- at probably like 10-12mph.

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My bad, wasn't an ebike. Im just used to that being the case with bike shares.

Based upon the pictures it looks like this was a case of the cop boxing in the cyclist ie. cyclist totally uninjured, other than burping the tire the bike is totally fine (looks like he didnt even go down actually), etc. Lets not get carried away and say that bumping someone at slow speed with a car, or boxing in a fleeing suspect on a bike is deadly force. But then again, maybe the cop went way over the top. IDK. I haven't seen video, and the only information posted is from a crazy biased blog. Feel free to get super duper offended though. Cops are the enemy, right?

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

I haven't seen video, and the only information posted is from a crazy biased blog.

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Did you at least watch the video of the cop lecturing the guy?

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Originally Posted by Dantheman

Did you at least watch the video of the cop lecturing the guy?

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Yeah. Don't really see anything wrong with it on either side. Both the cop and the cyclist seem fairly reasonable. Both said some things that are a little cringy/dumb, but nothing that wouldn't be explained away as stupid shit said during a confrontational conversation after a big ol' adrenaline dump.

The stop wasnt for the cyclist safety, it was for the public's safety and to enforce rule of law. And the cyclist saying he couldnt stop in time to avoid the car door is dumb... he had (apparently) 3 blocks to stop.


Being a cop is tough. Being a cyclist in a major metro is tough. So far the facts are that the cyclist was riding illegally and recklessly while actively evading police. The cop stopped the cyclist without injury, and apparently without damage to property. Are their other facts i am missing here?

I have to say that I agree with californiagrown to some extent, without seeing video to know exactly what the cop did, it's hard to assign blame here. Yeah, the cop said some cringeworthy things, but the cyclist appears uninjured and repeatedly ignored orders from the cop to stop. If you think the cop was horrendously out of line based on all the facts known, please explain what the cop should do when trying to initiate a traffic stop on a person that refuses to stop?

A bike doesn't end up in this position -- in the SUV wheel well -- if the cop pulls ahead of the cyslist and stops safely with space for the cyclst to stop. Even if the cyclist runs into a stopped car, there is no way you get it wedged in like that. The cop pretty obviously made contact with the cyclist while both vehicles were in motion a la a PIT maneuver.

https://gothamist.imgix.net/attachme...jpg&w=640&q=90

Thats reckless as hell. If the cop needs to stop this person who is such a danger to others, pull well in front of them and stop in the bike lane with time for them to slow down. Or follow them until they stop. A forceful stop with a car of someone on a bicycle is in no way justified.

The fact that the cyclist is uninjured isn't really relevant. It's just fortunate. The question is, what is the risk of hitting a moving cyclist with an armored SUV? If a cop shoots at someone and misses, it doesn't mean they didn't attempt to use deadly force. An engagement using a motor vehicle is regularly considered deadly force, especially when against more vulnerable targets like motorcyclists.

Bystanders even said they never heard the cop get on his loudspeaker or engage his sirens. That is just the policemans story.

"But Garvey Rich, an East Village resident who was in the playground across the street when the bike was run over, said the officer did not use a siren or his loudspeaker in the vicinity of Avenue A.

"I would have heard it for sure if there was a commotion," Rich told Gothamist. "There was no commotion, no feeling on street of police activity. It didn't make sense in many ways."

While he did not see the initial impact that wedged the bike under the SUV, Rich noted that others at the scene said it was the police officer who acted recklessly. Prior to the video's start, witnesses said the officer cut off another car making a right turn from St. Marks and Avenue A, then drove on the wrong side of the street before veering in front of the cyclist."

https://gothamist.com/2019/07/08/cit..._bike_lane.php

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Originally Posted by Danno

repeatedly ignored orders from the cop to stop.

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Reportedly. Could very well be some CYA happening.

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Originally Posted by Danno

If you think the cop was horrendously out of line based on all the facts known, please explain what the cop should do when trying to initiate a traffic stop on a person that refuses to stop?

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I'm rather suspicious of just how "reckless" the cyclist was riding. He's pretty clearly not your typical fixie bike messenger douchenozzle. Unless he was waving a gun around or leaving a trail of vehicular accidents and/or battered pedestrians in his wake, striking a moving cyclist with a moving SUV seems excessive to me. Do that to a bike cop with your car and your ass is going to jail, period. Also, thousands and thousand of people probably run red lights in NYC every day and this cop simply has more important things he could be doing with his time.

I really hope there's dash cam footage or other video emerges.

I don't see the point of police body/car cameras if the footage is not available to the suspect and/or public after the fact. Would probably get rid of some shitty cops, and also stop false narratives against good cops.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

I don't see the point of police body/car cameras if the footage is not available to the suspect and/or public after the fact. Would probably get rid of some shitty cops, and also stop false narratives against good cops.

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Finally, something california and I can agree on. Just like some are inclined to believe the cops story, I'm inclined to believe that if this footage justified hitting a cyclist with a moving SUV it would've been happily released when requested.

I had a cop tell me he had footage of me riding illegally on a sidewalk and so there was no point in showing up in court. He actually showed up to my court date. Didn't have footage. And didn't know how to read a damn bike map. I even got apologized to by the judge for the waste of time and court fees waived.

I am not saying the cop was in the right, just that the video posted and that single picture aren't enough for me to know what happened. Above was a little bit of new info, but dash cam or body cam or somebody who videoed it would certainly help.

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Originally Posted by doebedoe

Finally, something california and I can agree on. Just like some are inclined to believe the cops story, I'm inclined to believe that if this footage justified hitting a cyclist with a moving SUV it would've been happily released when requested.

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The reasoning i've heard for not always releasing footage is because if the video has a shitty angle, or gets blocked, or sound gets screwed up, etc and is inconclusive then public opinion will be that there is no "evidence" and the person is not-guilty. When in-fact, a policeman observing illegal behavior (without the benefit of video/picture documentation) is enough evidence on its own to warrant a stop or citation, or numerous other actions. If you've ever watched a bunch of these cams (liveleak has a ton for example) youll see that they are confusing, shaky, never pointed perfectly, make everything look far away, etc... they arent as clear as everyone would like. Folks should realize that the video is just another possible piece of evidence, not the end all be all piece. But people are stupid and jump to conclusions that satisfy preconceived narratives - we are all guilty.

For example, had you been riding on the sidewalk illegally, and the cops body cam was on but didnt have an angle or resolution/zoom to actually catch you doing it then that video is useless. He may have thought his body cam did catch you doing something illegal, but after reviewing footy, it did not. I mean i fuck up using my GoPro all the time- forget to turn it on, accidentally take pictures instead of video, rimed up lense, helmet gets bumped and the angle is screwy etc.

That said, i think that dashboard/body cam footage should be uploaded and available to the person recieving the citation/indictment within a week after the arrest/citation. It just another tool to keep cops and citizens safe and accountable. That tool needs to be available every damn time.

Welp, a line of like 30+ cars was waiting at a stop light last night and a cyclist comes up the right side in his bike lane, slows down and starts to cut over through the stopped traffic to get over to the left turn lane. No problem, right? WRONG. Some asshat in a FJ cruiser decides that no way is he letting a bicyclist cut him off, so he proceeds to jerk forward to block the cyclist. Fucking idiot didnt see the bike rack on the car in front of him and nails it. The cyclist, who stopped in plenty of time (because he was cautiously going 1.5mph) just yells "what the hell man", backs up and goes around the next car in the line. FJ cruiser guy just tried to fuck up the day of one cyclist, and ended up fucking up the day of a totally different cyclist.

Speaking of road rage, people need to to work harder if they are raging on the way home from work. I understand the morning when you are super caffeinated, stressed about the day ahead, and ready to get going on the day... but by the time i leave work im usually so beaten down and mentally drained that im in full cruise mode, waving in every merger in site, perfectly content to go no faster than the speed limit etc.

Good story. Sucks for the dudes bike rack.

I also don't get the afternoon rage fests. Maybe so many people hate their jobs so much, and hate their commutes so much, that they can't stand a slight delay to go home and pound a bunch of beers. By that time of the day my mind is usually pretty cooked. So my bike ride home is basically meditative when not being honked at.

Sucks about that guy's rack and bike, but instant karma is always awesome.

I understand the logic behind thinking that the afternoon commute should have less rage, but it views work as a dissipator of stress and rage, rather than a creator of it. IOW, most people get filled up with that stuff while at work. Plus, the afternoon commute is almost always busier, because in the morning you generally only have commuters on the roads, while in the afternoon you have those people PLUS all the other schmucks who are now awake and doing stuff.

afternoon commuters being tired from work is a bad thing too. they're less efficient about driving, whereas in the morning they're racing to get there on time. when the light turns green, I want people getting moving, their bumper right on the person in front of them so we can get as many people through the light as possible. usually, you see each car leaving a 6 car-length gap before they finally hit the gas. that shit pisses me off and I appreciate the opportunity to rant about it.

yesterday on my way home I drove behind a family of 6 bikers and a dog widely spread out over the whole lane on a quiet residential street that I use to get around traffic. couldn't really pass them. they were being kind of oblivious and their small kid was 50 yards ahead, but there really wasn't any reason to get worked up about it. just gave them space and eventually they turned off a different direction. a lot of other drivers would lose their fucking shit at those bikers and let it ruin their whole day. too much stress in this world that we need to offload on external enemies.

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Originally Posted by LesterSmoove

yesterday on my way home I drove behind a family of 6 bikers and a dog widely spread out over the whole lane on a quiet residential street that I use to get around traffic. couldn't really pass them. they were being kind of oblivious and their small kid was 50 yards ahead, but there really wasn't any reason to get worked up about it. just gave them space and eventually they turned off a different direction. a lot of other drivers would lose their fucking shit at those bikers and let it ruin their whole day. too much stress in this world that we need to offload on external enemies.

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If im using neighborhood side roads because the arterials are jammed, i have no problem slowing way down and letting the residents of that neighborhood do their thing. Im the asshole commuting through their neighborhood on streets not designed for me to be there.

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Originally Posted by Danno

<snip> all the other schmucks who are now awake and doing stuff.

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Hey, now... that was uncalled for. :mad: :D

https://giphy.com/gifs/xT9IglnRQ2twgsC53y/html5https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9Igl...C53y/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by FLS

https://giphy.com/gifs/xT9IglnRQ2twgsC53y/html5https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9Igl...C53y/giphy.gif

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this was stressful to watch

I was called a FuckFace by an 80 year old man yesterday. My kiddo and I couldn’t stop laughing, which pissed him off even more. Basically, we were slowing down to come to a stop on a bike path. He came to a stop in front of us and honked, (he had no stop, he could have kept going) and started berating us for not stopping...when we were still 10-20 feet from a stop sign. I called him a moron, he called me a fuckface, hilarity ensued.
Even wifey called him a grumpy old fuck.

Got doored off the road bike over the weekend. I was climbing up a quiet residential street that sees tons of cycling traffic (Mandeville Canyon for the LA mags) and basically got impaled on the corner of some woman's door when she swung it out into traffic. No major injuries, just bruising and road rash; handlebars and shifter are toast. Could have been much worse if I wasn't fat and slow, or there had been someone driving up behind me.

Thanks for the reminder to maintain door zone vigilance. Glad you're mostly OK.