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I was on a hut trip and one of the crew had just treated a set of DPS with Phantom, he was waxing eloquent NO he was raving on about Phantom but I think it was an inconclusive test really and it should be noted ... he is a DPS dealer
we had 40cms of new at just above zero and then it went to -25C and the last day was -15 ish he seemed to be sliding ok, the bases look like any other waxed base, skin application was fine didn't leave any residue but then we got noting to compare it to and I don't think the skins had been leaving any glue cuz all his shit is always new
He did take out the guide/hut operator's DPS 106 to treat which will be an interesting real life day in day out acid test of the product in real life conditions,
Being a DPS dealer there have always been a lot of dentists, doctors, lawyers, accountants wanting to give him money and I predict he will sell a lot of this stuff, I asked what is selling and he said " anything DPS or Arcterxy " he told me DPS is the single biggest product he has ever sold in 15 yrs of selling skis and bikes
I think its all gods way of telling you ...you have too much money
I've been waiting for the time to do it + the sunlight to do it line up. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Crampedon
I got some, still haven't applied. I'm a total non-waxer. Thought this would be a good solution to keep things gliding. I'm not in a hurry.
I want to guess 2 part polymer resin. Look how far epoxy has come recently. Super thin viscosity long set times. Base grind, wipe clean, mix and apply, screen clear of edges or follow with an edge grind.
Then just base grind to refresh? My guess, two part polymer resin. This shit is going to clog a lot of belts and shops will be grinding the stone more often. Wintersiger piggy back?
Why don’t you see epoxy used in bathroom and kitchen floors? Because it’s slipery.
That’s my guess.
The thing that pissed me off the most is DPS fucking crowd funded some clowns out of a quarter million dollars to put epoxy on a base
I weigh a lot, so I go fast without it.
well wouldn't you go a little faster with faster skis ?Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbuilds
Truth.
I’ve got one day on some Phantom’d boards. Short story, after the first run and a half where there was noticeable friction and a ‘funny’ feeling from the skis, they skied like a nicely waxed board. High speed big turns, low speed short turns, even ultra low speed in the lift lanes, felt good and slick. Ofcourse its only 1 day, but so far so good.
More details:
East Coast, Air temps mid to high twenties, I’m assuming snow temps similar. Snow was generally some new man made with day old natural mixed in on groomers, Natural trails were piles of manmade with ice below. Runs were on east/south facing slopes catching the morning sun and warmer due to the sun, as well as north facing slopes seeing only shadows and certainly a bit colder. I did not feel any difference in glide across the board. I’m usually an every 2-3 day waxer, use the high range bulk hot/warm/cold waxes, though occasionally splurge on the more temp specific range waxes. Would like to say I can feel when I screwed up the temps, but who knows, its all voodoo anyway.
As for application, was pretty straight forward following the directions. I did clean the bases, and did some base repair prior, no stone grind. So I should not have had much residual wax involved. Boards were ones I had approximately 20 days on already, fwiw, they were Praxis but not the red ones. I ran out of sun during the second cure, only had about an hour and a half, so I took them inside and gave them 3 hours the next morning, completing the finishing process then. It didn’t seem to adversely affect anything, but then again how would I know. So far so good, but need more days before I’m fully sold, but pretty positive so far.
Whole Thread...DPS Phantom.
Today's Post:
Well, I had a chance to take out the newly tuned Phantom prepped skis today. Last week we sent the Cassiar 95's to @smoothrides to have them prepped and cleaned up. This test pair had about 30 days on them, mostly by @Andy Mink, with the sparce Tahoe contitions and it was time to give the skis some love and to see what happens to Phantom after a base grind. @smoothrides had the skis for a day or so and in his usual prompt manner the skis were returned to us with a fresh 1*/2* bevel and a nice thumbnail grind and I will say the skis looked better than new. Today I had a chance to get them in the condtions that everyone was asking how they were, cold new snow. Mt. Rose was 10* with a recorded 5-7" of fresh squeaky snow. I immediately knew that the Phantom would work well because the Cassair's were sliding around under my feet when I was putting them on. Gliding over to the lift was pretty effortless. I would say the skis felt better than if I had a red wax on but not quite as good as if it was cold weathr specific blue wax. Where the usual rule of thumb is that red is for 80% of your skiing and blue and yellow account for the 10% on either end, I would say that the Phantom easily covers more than half of that 10% on the blue end...and for that person who doesn't use a blue, this will be more than fine for them too. We have yet to subject our tests ski to anything that doesn't let them stand up to DPS's claims. This pair of skis has about a years worth of on snow time for the typical skier and is now ready for another year with it's fresh grind. Hard to argue that.
Has anyone put this shit on, skied a few days, done a base grind and skied it again.
I doubt anyone is questioning its ability to work as a wax, but rather it’s one-and-done application.
Serious question - aside from the number of days, isn't this what Phil reported on right above your post? They put about 30 days on a pair, had it ground, and it seemed to revitalized the wax (if I read correctly). Is the discrepancy in number of days what you're curious about?Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierD
Seth
Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app
I read it as, they skied the skis (demos whatever), ground them, and then applied. My reading comprehension might suck though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sethschmautz
I got that the ski had Phantom applied 30 ski days ago and just had a fresh grind. It then appeared to work as advertised, although the apparently very high quality tune probably had something to do with the good performance.
My inital questions around Phantom were more about how it performs if you don't get a grind every 30 days. Sure, on a low snow year, I'll probably hit enough rocks to warrant a full tune in that time frame, but if I'm not hitting anything, I personally don't want to be getting my skis ground just to refresh the glide--that adds significantly to the already high cost of Phantom over waxing at home.
Initial reports are fairly positive beyond issues around the curing process in places with weak sunlight, but I haven't seen anything about how it performs in the absence of regular full tunes.
I read Phil’s post as the skis were ground and then had phantom applied.
My reading, tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Skeeze
Clarification: Phantom applied, skied them 30 days then had them ground then skied more. I hope that clears it up :)
If someone is in Tahoe and wants to ski these, you are welcome to.
If epoxy is so slick, why wouldn't they just make bases out of epoxy (with maybe some additive/aggregate to make it less brittle)? Bases would be tougher, and presumably no wax required (if your "guess" is correct).Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbuilds
And...what kind of epoxy could possibly permeate the entire thickness of a ptex base?
My guess is: your guess is off.
This stuff seems promising, for sure. But it needs to be like 1/3 the price - I assume the margin is beefy, and I bet they could profit more by selling a whole lot more of it. For $90 this shit should be one-and-done (i.e. no need ever for a base grind, supplemental wax, etc.), otherwise the long-term cost approaches the ridiculous, vs just waxing (ok it saves the effort of waxing, but bringing skis into a shop for a grind, waiting, and having to pick them up seems like more effort, that I'm just as likely to blow off as simple waxing).
AFA "...I go fast without it,"...not on a -15F day you don't (especially on the flats). Warm, sunny, wet-snow spring days without wax are no picnic either. Could never understand people who insist they *never* wax - most days you can get away with it, but some days are ruined.
I rarely wax, and yeah a couple days a year it kinda sucks, but i deal with it...im fucking lazy and replace/switch skis so often i dont care enough...to each their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by skizix
Has anyone tried to use a UV light to cure? I've read the instructions and the FAQ that does not endorse this, and I emailed DPS looking for guidance, basically getting the "we can't guarantee..." response. I heard they are setting up "cure stations" at dealers, but that won't be anywhere near me. There's no way I'll have a sunny day above freezing until ski season is over... but at least it's snowing now.
Word!Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidog
I got to ski a number of skis, back to back on the same hill, same conditions. 1/2 with 1/2 without phantom. It does work, I'll have it on the skis I mount up in the future. It'll be worth it for me as I don't usually have time to wax anymore, and I ski in all conditions. I do have an affiliation with DPS, so as always, take it with a grain of salt.
Really?!? Tinkerer Numero Uno does not wax?Quote:
Originally Posted by swissiphic
I used to be like that, for many years. But in recent seasons I've wound up skiing an inordinate amount of super cold and then crazy warm, mushy days. So I've started waxing a lot more. Not only does it save the crap out of those edge-conditions days (and I'm tele, so skis grabbing in super cold or wet snow sucks that much more - over-the-bars and all), but I've found that it makes a quite noticeable difference even on "normal" temp days (especially if you've got any traverses you want to stay high on, or catwalks, etc., on the schedule).
I'd totally be down with this magic, perma-wax, if it were anything like one-and-done. Not so keen on needing to base-grind on a regular basis (expense, hassle, having my skis in the shop when I might need them, etc.). I very rarely get grinds these days. I will wait for the data to come in, re: dependence on base grinds.
And DPS guy: thanks indeed for acknowledging your affiliation. But I assume then that you are biased, and that you're getting this $$$ super-lube for free or cheap (correct me if I'm wrong), which makes a big difference. Like I said, if it were 1/3 the price, I'd give it a go for sure. Can you maybe finagle a Mag-deal, make us all happy, sell some product, and gain some street cred :D?
teeheehee....lol, i spoke too soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by skizix
After years of waxing obsessively, then got sick and tired of scraping the damn skis (running a rotation of about 5 pairs last few seasons)...cause I maintain about 45 pairs of skis in our LFH rental fleet...and....really didn't notice too much in the way of detriment unless weather/temps changed dramatically and previous wax was for a different temp range OR the particular skis i was on had the wrong base structure for the present snow surface...but whatever, I learned to live with it.
But, game changing discovery just this afternoon.
Had some boards to wax in the shop...had very little time...so...instead of dripping wax onto base and ironing it in, i incrementally rubbed surface of stick of wax on iron, rubbed the soft goo on the based evenly, incrementally from tip to tail. Eyeballed and guessed as to how much to use to have just the wafer thinnest of coats so as to not require any scraping.
Bingo!
The game is changed. 5 minute wax, no mess, no muss, no fuss, no heinous mess of wax scrapings. Buff 'er smooth with some scrotchbrite and good to go.
and...barely used any wax!!!!!!!!!!! probably gonna save about 60 percent of wax use based on quick estimates.
And who knows, it could be a regular M.O. for 90 percent of the skiing world but i'm old and slow on the uptake; coulda missed the train when the world switched to this method of waxing?
I thought about it and came to the conclusion that the ski base doesn't know that's it's not waxed according to regulations, laws and precedent. It just doesn't know. ;)
I'll never scrape another ski for the rest of my life.
5 minutes of waxing personal skis every week or so, I can live with. And now, i can do it in our house kitchen without risk of getting evicted by girlfriend landlord.
When I wax, I crayon wax then iron. Only time I drip is to hot scrape to clean base
Hmm...I always drip then iron. When I'm doing it regularly, I get good enough with just the right amount of drip that I barely have to scrape. But it's still a PITA to scrape. I'll try these alternative techniques - scraping is always the worst part.
this seems better. scrape is a mess and fills my shopvac.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
i drip / iron as I go. you drip the whole ski first? that sounds fasterQuote:
Originally Posted by skizix
IME it kinda depends on the ski and how flat yer base is as to how much wax you are gona use
I crayon after a quick touch to the iron - you crayon on wax more easily/quickly.
Then I start ironing, and if I'm a little shy, crayon on after the iron passes that spot - that adds enough, usually, to handle that section. Repeat up the ski till it's handled. Sometimes, instead of moving the iron mostly tip to tail, I move more laterally to spread the very thin layer of wax across the whole ski. [But really, missing a tiny section of base isn't going to be the end of the world.]
And while I still scrape - I don't pull off much.
And yeah, I've stopped brushing and use a scotch pad [the ones from the kitchen are so much cheaper and more readily available!] as the final buff/polish. If there's a few spots too thick, buff harder.
My waxes aren't as quick as @swissiphic's [the Nikola Tesla of skiing] - but it's still pretty fast. And it saves a lot of wax.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorys
A coupla notes: I've read a few reviews now where observations indicated that snow sticks to base in certain snow conditions...can't remember what temp range but suspect warmer moist snow. I work as a ski tech in the heliski industry and this is a problem experienced mostly during spring days where the pickups may be at lower elevation bands where temps are above freezing and landings are in the high alpine and well below zero. Particularly an issue on our 5-6000 vert foot runs where the temp differences are dramatic in the spring. Most frequently noticed with guests that have skis that aren't freshly waxed or personal equipment with dry bases. The snow/icing definitely scrapes off easier from a freshly waxed/buffed base but the effect lessens throughout the day as the micro surface layer of buffed waxed wears off.
Noticed that our recently purchased KUUsport graphite spring snow wax has a greater snow/ice stick resistance multi day endurance...still testing it and so far, awesome spring skiing wax. Did some touring in really gooey low elevation forest tree gunk drip snow and though glide was affected, the skis definitely ran faster and turned easier than on bases previously waxed with 'regular' yellow warm snow 'piss wax'. Have a chunk in my pack and now just rub it on before downhilling while ski touring and buff it with the leather gloved hand...works great.
Considering that one of the claims of Phantom Glide treated bases is that one can wax 'normally' if desired, perhaps this is the solution to the issue...seems like in a narrow band of conditions, the P.G. treated base acts like an unwaxed 'dry' base (snow stick on base/slight drag at slow speeds or starting from a stop) so maybe for certain days, a quick crayon wax job with no scrape and a quick buff is what's required for both mitigating the snow stick and the slow speed drag noted in some comments for certain snow conditions.
I'd say since the underlying performance of the P.G. treated base seems to work as advertised, the odd touch up wax job wouldn't be a deal breaker...but for me, it's just the damn price....you can buy a lot of wax for years and years worth worth of crayon application for the price of a P.G. treatment for a pair of skis.
As for post wax buffing: Though trial and error, noticed that simply rubbing the base with prit near anything buffs it smooth and shiny. Paper towel, scotchbrite pad, rubber gardening gloved hand...etc...
We're not all racing and have to brush out the wax residue from the base structure. For recreational skiing, there's just no need, IMO. A coupla runs usually does the trick. Folks have commented on some compromise of skin glue stick on a freshly waxed/shiney buffed base but I don't know...after 30 years plus of ski touring, it's never been an issue that i've really noticed a dramatic difference. I'm fastidious with rubbing the skins tip to tail to maximise the glue stick so maybe this helps mitigate any issues... just my experience, yrmv on this one...perhaps different brands of skins/glue perform differently in this regard and i've just been lucky with mine?
For the shop work i buff with my power tool 'because it's there' but for personal use, I use my leather gloved hand because you get the side benefit of waxing the palm of hand for both better grip on the ski pole AND a quick app of water proofing/resistance! Give gloves a blast of heat from a hairdryer/hot air gun or defrost heat vent on the drive to the ski hill and yer good to go! Saved me a few times after running out of snowseal and had to resort to alternative means for glove leather w.p. treatment.
I have read the same reviews and from what I can tell, it's a non issue. Even when it sticks, it comes right off when you start skiing?
Slow speed drag sucks though..'specially while creeping along on the flats or having to herringbone or do the shuffle. But like I said, a quick crayon hot wax would probably be the solution for days featuring those specific snow conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveLarger
Yeah, agree, if thats the case. But thats not what I read. I read that if you leave your skis in the snow for an extended amount of time, it will stick, but goes away if you remove it, or just start skiing. I haven't tried it my self yet, so it's not like I know this firsthand. But what people report on the pugski board and what blister wrote, indicated nothing along the lines of being bad on the flats? More the opposite?Quote:
Originally Posted by swissiphic
I'm thinking specifically of situations where you not coasting on the flats but kinda start and stopping, double poling. There's that microsecond of 'stop' where if you have drag on bases it requires a 15 percent+/- bit of extra effort to kick the skis forward again during yer double pole to get moving again...that adds up after a few kms. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveLarger
I'll re read the reports and see if i misinterpreted/misread something though.
Bigger question though.
Those wet + fresh snow/small-crystal days...
IMO, absolutely NOTHING really "fixes" the drag you get on those days. I'm sure things can help some, and if you're racing, it may well make the difference between winning and coming last.
But for the average schmo on the hill, I don't think *anything* I've tried has made all that much difference. And when I say difference, I mean - where you don't really find you're getting a lot [or any] sticktion, and everyone else not using your secret method is complaining about it a lot.
And this is the place where I think most people want the biggest difference - that wet fresh snow.
The last couple of years here in Oregon, we've really not had "spring" skiing, where the snow corns up and it doesn't matter how wet it is, since the crystal size is so large. We've kept getting new on top of what's here often enough that you're always skiing snow that's never really gone through the freeze/thaw cycle enough times. Not that I'm complaining, it's nice to ski on fresh snow - but I do love me some corn.
For me, the TLDR version is:
For sticktion, you can perhaps make a very modest difference by greater structure, and fresh appropriate wax - but it's not going to reduce the drag by 98% or anything. It might be 20% better. Or, if I exaggerate a lot, perhaps 50%. But it's still going to be really noticeable and not that fun - you're not going to he hooting your way down the hill while everyone else scratches their heads wondering what magic trick you came up with to avoid the suck they're in.
Am I missing something, or does that mirror everyone else's experience?
I live on the northwest coast of B.C. and ski lots either directly on the coast by Prince Rupert, a bit interior around Terrace and work in the winter in Stewart.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorys
What you said about yer experience last spring in Oregon is EXACTLY what we get prit near every spring in these parts. We rarely get the necessary longer term clear sunny days/clear cold nights freeze thaw conditions for classic corn development...typically the weather is unsettled with frequent small moist snowfalls followed by blazing heat sunny windows followed by another topping of moist snow to wet goo that gets baked and free water powtatos the snow surface.
The 'normal' bulk order yellow piss wax with a stated range of +2 to -4 is useless. Turns are suction cup stictiony.
I had a magic wax purchased in the 90's that i've used specifically for those days while ski touring and just rub it on, buff it with gloved hand ever ski touring run.
It works awesome, the glide is 'almost' as good as in colder temps snow...but...i used the last of it last season and was totally bummed out.
But, like i said, this KUUsport graphite stuff 'seems' to be the cure...haven't yet had that specific day of moist fresh followed by hot sun so can't state for sure, but, suspect it will be the ticket.
A lot of my skis have bases grooved out with lots of rocks scrapes so i'm sure 'nature's structuring' helps with the glide as well. ;)
And yes, i've been out on LOTS of spring touring days where i was hootin' and hollerin' and my buds were spittin' and foaming cause their skis were gliding on sandpaper and they were double poling to get down the mountain.
Saved their days with my rub on 90's mystery wax though and we were back to business as usual.
Too old to remember what the hell the wax was/is when purchased, which kinda sux cause it was a game changer for those SPECIFIC days.
Also, don't know about you guys in Oregon, but up in these parts we can have season ending pollen discharge events in may/june. If there's an alignment of temps, dry days and wind, the hemlocks discharge pollen and it gets blown onto the snow surface, turns it yellow/green.
In these circumstances, there is seriously, NO GLIDE. You start a run and about 100 meters down the slope grind to a halt, like flipping over the handlebars style on any slope incline less than 35 degrees.
Solution? thus far it's been always carry a container of ski wax remover and over the course of the run, scrap the big layer off, then clean base with the ski wax remover. Good for another 100-300 meters, rinse and repeat.
But like i said, this KUUsport graphite stuff SEEMS to resist the buildup of forest gunk and goo so maybe it'll work for the pollen discharge apocalyptic conditions too...time will tell.
For sharp small faceted crystal snow, or wind driven broken crystals polar wax does the trick but it is expensive, so i basically throw a bit of green on then don't wax for the rest of the extended cold snaps below minus 20 C.
But again, that's all my personal experience, yrmv.
^^^ So, is crayon-ing the wax on, leaving enough surface deformation/irregulatiry that it vastly decreases water adhesion? Or do you really think that the wax type is the ticket?
It seems like you'd claim the latter, but I've also used racewax's Molybdenum/low-flouro [iron-ing it on] and while it may help, it's certainly not the panacea you describe above. (Hooting and holler'n vs poling.) Same with Swix Yellow and Low-flouro universal from RW. I've tried a few other waxes, and never felt the difference was very substantial.
...And I have the same experience for different levels of structure. Sandpaper down to 120 grit, using alternating diagonal patterns. I'd say that the effects are modest at best.
I certainly haven't done anything with a huge level of precision to it, and used finely calibrated measurements - just done it and skied them and compared to others I'm skiing with...but that's what I've found.
Good question; I generally don't hot wax in the later spring (mid april to early june), just do the rub on/crayon in the field before every run...but success definitely depends on having the right wax...that bulk +2 to -4 yellow didn't work worth a damn in the sun baked fresh snow but the 'mystery magik' wax sure did.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorys
Maybe the success IS due to the physical layer of wax coating the base?
Talking more about open alpine and treeline terrain here with frequent top ups of fresh snow layers over a clean surface. The achillies heel is, of course, once you descend down into the truly warm old water saturated dirty forest goo, the coat of wax collects the gunk and you might end up having to clean the base a bit or at the end of the ski day...then start from scratch for the next run/ski day.
I'm talking ski touring specific at this point though, not heli or lift served high volume runs per day.
Also of note, once we get into true summer skiing conditions where the precip events just bring rain and no snow, i don't wax at all. just bring ski wax remover and clean the bases of the inevitable buildup of junk and goo after downhill runs and ski skin glue goo after the uphills. Bare back glide is fine over the suncups, rocks, shrubs, dead birds, bugs, spiders and bare ground.
I’m sure this has been covered somewhere on here but I couldn’t pull it up in search- is there a way to scrape that is less effort? Is there a power tool for scraping off a hot wax? Scraping my skis hurts my (injured) back worse than skiing.
When it’s still hot, put a fiberlene sheet under your iron and do a hard final pass. You’ll still have to hard scrape after the wax dries but way way less.
Thanks a lot. Sometimes the real jongy stuff can be hard to find around here. I’ll take a lap.Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeJ