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My AT's are fine.:D I have Blizzaks on my wife's car and (gasp!) MT's on my Jeep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
Granted, the Toyo Open Country MT is a different breed of MT. The Jeep is unstoppable on those. When it is truly fuckered (deep and snowy) out that's the vehicle I grab the keys for. When it's icy the Blizzaks get the nod.
Yeah, no. In their element, there is no comparison. And I run/have run Toyo MTs/CTs/AT3.
The MTs are the best on that list in deep snow. Look, I'm glad your tires are working for you. But living at 8500 off a dirt road, driving to and dealing with the fuckary of Berthoud, working on shittily plowed job sites, having 40 be a straight rink for the last 10 days and comparing my new tires on an F250 to my friends ATs and MTs and just looking around at the whips in the ditch and those no va in the parking lot....winter tires are just better.
Now I get that their are plenty of reason to not run them. But that don't make them better.
As sweet as those Toyo MT's are at digging and moving, they def can get slidey on hard pack. I had the old Kelly version of that tread but with studs. It was great but after the wear down, they were just ok and needed a bit more attention.
I am real happy with my Cooper Snow Claws too. I had to go with non-studded due to local regulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
These are 285/70r17 and E-rated, I run them at 32psi for a smooth ride. Ford Bronco so I really don’t need the E-rating.
I posted a thorough review in one of the multiple snow tire threads on TGR. Why are there so many threads?
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Dude, we need to discuss truck snow tires separately from car snow tires, and every thread needs to debate AT tires vs snow tires. So that people can make the same arguments multiple times a year without looking like they are beating a dead horse in just one thread. It spreads it out thinner ya know? We probably just need a tire forum!Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry
I have snows on three of my vehicles, no studs, and KO2s and At3s on my trucks. Guess I'm the only one who doesn't see that big of a difference. Maybe I drive like an old lady. Vehicle makes a bigger difference than anything obvs.
Harry, I did read your review and, to be honest, I just found the first semi relevant thread and posted in it.
Part of my logic is that the new ATs are pretty awesome but their winter performance suffers big time when they still have +/-15k of thread left.
But I don't hate, I'll pull ya out of the ditch no matter what tires you have.
Been happy with the studded cooper snow claws. Have run blizzacks, ipikes, and other snows. 2nd set I’ve owned of the coopers.
ATs suck on black ice and wet pack white ice. ATs are fine in cold continental weather/snow. In coastal mountain weather they are super dangerous when the temps are cold enough to refreeze the wet in to ice. Generally you’ll have a little water on top to lubricate as well.
I’ve run duratracs, Ko2, hankook ATs… nothing replaces a true snow tire for wet/black ice.
Any tire works if you're driving slow as fuckall...
:fmicon:.
:yourock:.
Until you come upon a hill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Djongo Unchained
Kinda the same point I was making. AS car tires are shit turds. Fresh K03's on my 8k lb truck work pretty fucking good. MT's on my Jeep wouldn't be my first choice on ice, but when the snow is gooey and wet it goes down my driveway drama free while my ass is puckered up air tight in my wife's X5 on Blizzaks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
Tahoe conditions can be pretty different, too. It's rare for our roads to turn into full blown ice rinks.
I'm not saying anybody is wrong to run full winter tires and in a ton of cases I would do the same.
Not true. I literally could not move my Audi from my lower garage to my upper garage on Pilot Sport Cups. It went spinning down my driveway. I slung tow straps through the wheels and drug it back to the garage sideways with the tractor.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
Edit: should have quoted the full text saying that any tire works if you go slow enough.
Yeah, I watched a guy trying to get out of Northstar in an older Outback during a storm. It’s a pretty moderate downhill slope but he couldn’t control himself. Would move a bit start sliding slide into the snow bank… pull out start sliding, into the snow bank. Repeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowMachine
It’s fine in snow and slush. Black ice or refreeze slush with ATs = butthole puckeredQuote:
Originally Posted by SnowMachine
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKALVS
Drove my new studded Hakkapelitta LT3s on ice and packed snow for a couple days. No deep snow, but on white ice they're sick. Big step up from unstudded Cooper snows, not even in the same discussion as ATs. Had an open, white ice covered road so I experimented to find their limit, all in 2wd. Going 50 I got on the brakes pretty hard, like harder than I use the brakes in a week of normal dry road driving. No ABS activation, a few seconds and I was stopped. Normal dry road throttle use from a stop caused some wheelspin. Slightly gentler than normal tip in and I was fine. Got up to speed, and stood on the brakes quite hard. The ABS kicked in but that was a hard stop, harder than I brake in a month of normal driving. Took some uphill turns at the posted dry road suggested speed and didn't slide, purposely powerslid a couple corners and it was nice progressive oversteer. Pretty rad
Yeah.... Refreeze slush can create traction because on texture. Black ice, yes... bad. I feel like my current house has made me something of an expert on snow types. My driveway is 1/4 mile of 12% with a 90 degree turn at the bottom. The worst condition is sheet ice and then warm temps or rain. Cold ice is not big deal. When I scrape my driveway with a blade, then it warms up it is frightening (but you have to do it).Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKALVS
I sell tires and mount them in my shop at the top of the drive. I've gotten to experiment with everything including comparing studs back to back with MT's. The huge test is whether or not I can come to a complete stop on the driveway to throw sand. The Jeep on MT's pretty consistently is able. Part of it is lockers and low range. Lock both axles at the top of the driveway and go to low range and it can crawl down almost anything. Sometimes ABS is your worst nightmare. If it can't find traction it can get overwhelmed and just unlock everything. Snow tires can pretty consistently stop except when slush completely fills the tread and ABS loses its mind. Condition of tires is huge, too, obviously.
I'm reasonably convinced that outside hard sheet ice, there is almost no use case for studs anymore. The new snow compounds are so good. My experience is backed up by my Tire Rack rep who has confirmed that they are effectively phasing studs out (he is in Indianna).
Anyway, arguing about tires is fun because it is so dependent on snow types/conditions, vehicle and driver ability. There aren't a lot of absolutes except that the people that should be on snow tires usually aren't.
I will absolutely, without doubt, tell you that a Pirelli Scorpion AS is undoubtedly THE worst SUV tire in snow/ice and they come on far too many high end German SUV's. I can't tell you how many I see on cars in town. It scares me knowing that I share the road with those people. :cussing:
Anyway.... I'm probably arguing just to argue on the internet. I definitely screen customers about their tires before I will bring cars up to my shop. I won't touch a car with AS tires unless I can see blacktop.
Yeah, trying to move your car uphill on some track day tires makes for a good comparison.
It's definitely enlightening about just how big tread compound differences are. It's also part of my life. I have a 911T that I move up and down my driveway all winter on R888's. He takes that car over the summit to the track all winter long. I sure as hell wouldn't do it, but he's a cowboy. I have videos of backing that car down my driveway like a yo-yo strapped to my tractor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Djongo Unchained
I would never drive around during the winter on a tire like that, but we share the road with people who do.
Nice to hear industry vs anecdotal info.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowMachine
Yep. On ice studs beat everything. But a proper soft rubber siped tread crushes everything. .
And yet, there’s the issue of soft rubber wearing out if you have to drive them in warm temps on the way to the mountain.
Curious if there exists a limited stud but slightly firmer tire model. More tread life but a few studs for when needed.
Coming off studded I-Pikes, I finally pulled the trigger on Hercules Avalanche TT 10 ply winter tires for my RAM 1500. They’re a little cheaper than most options around here, but the guys at the tire shop and a couple of trusted friends assured me that due to their comparatively aggressive trade they’re actually the top performers in the most challenging deep snow conditions, which is what I’m most concerned about. Hoping for the best.
Let us know!!Quote:
Originally Posted by kootenayskier
I think it's further fascinating because it's regional, too. I was thinking about the comments about Bertoud Pass. In the Sierra we flat don't get conditions like that often. We got 4' of snow last week. Our highways are 100% blacktop right now. I took my truck out of 4WD when I backed out of my garage and drove to the resort 20 miles away without thinking of 4WD again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Shot
I’ve been thinking about that in the context of the TFLOffroad video with the Jeep Wranglers and the Falken AT4W. The tyre-reviews reviews that I posted showed those tires as measurably worse than the KO3 for braking distance, but not twice as bad. Note: different vehicles with different curb weights, weight distributions, and ABS (though it seemed like somewhat similar tire sizes as far as air volume and contact size).Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowMachine
Anyways, I agree, there is already another truck tire thread. I thought this one was gonna be focused on actual truck snow tires, but it goes to show, most truck owners don’t actually own or use snow tires and would rather use ATs or MTs masquerading as such …
Back on topic, I appreciate that Nokian has 80%/60%/40%/20%/snowflake indicators cut right into the center tread of Hakka LT3s. Easy way to understand the available snow/ice rated tread, and also makes managing rotation / seasonal mounting position a breeze. Who else does that?
We need a tire forum with regional tire threads which are then broken down into vehicle types. It is the only way.
There are a lot of mud tires that can accept studs, but IMHO mud tires are awful snow tires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Shot
My experience has been the exact opposite of Snow Machine - a Jeep with mud tires and dual lockers is the worst possible on road snow vehicle.
Mud tires are designed to dig and not clog up - - to expel mud from between the tread blocks. That's the opposite of what a winter tire is supposed to do - -all those tiny sipes are designed to hold snow, because snow sticks to snow, and that gives traction.
That alone was enough to discount the rest of his post in my mind. Many other reasons too, but he can have his opinions, wrong though they be.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chupacabra
And some guy at Tire Rack says they are phasing them out? Yea, but no, and didn't say why. Reducing available models yes, because they are costly to produce and are basically illegal in some US states like MN/IL/MI/WI and in Germany, Poland, and 6 other EU countries. The laws are due to road wear, so it is a marketability/production cost/profit thing. Not everywhere makes exceptions for non-residents. Studless are competitive, but not necessaarily superior except in profitability and universal legality.
I havent heard anything about studs going away up here and frankly I doubt it
Curious about road wear of studs vs chains. In California, my observation is that tire chains, especially on heavy Class A vehicles, do a shit ton of road surface damage.
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I'm certain chains are far worse, plus they are usually on heavier vehicles. Modern stud design doesn't really cause extra road wear. Modern studs have protrusion limits too. I think the rules against them are pretty outdated for wintery states except for the seasonal limits.
In BC we can run studs Oct 1 to april 30, they gotta be off the vehical in summer
:fmicon:Quote:
Originally Posted by Core Shot
I'll put my 30+ years of snow driving experience (i.e. anecdotal info), up against pretty much any of the local JH 'Industry' experts, as they almost entirely are recent residents, arriving from a desert country and speaking minimal english. Many of whom have never/rarely driven a first rate vehicle in snow.
And studs won't be going away here anytime soon either. I hear them go buzzing by all summer long. Studs in WY? 24/7/365
" Not an Expert".... certainly rings true. If you don't know how to use lockers or 4-low, you aren't an expert. Around here we wheel and we snow wheel. A lot. No you don't run around locked, but going straight down a steep grade, try it..... 4-low is vastly superior to allowing ABS to do its thing. Locking axles is a huge plus, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
I never speak in absolutes, but I certainly know what I'm talking about (absolutely:D). I also drive more vehicles with more variations of tires than you (I'd be extremely surprised if that weren't true), but it's all Tahoe snow.
Anyway.... back to the absolutes. I don't believe in them because you can always be wrong.
Sometimes clearing snow from tread is good. Sometimes not. Siping is not just for collecting snow. It is also for allowing more edges to bite. Tread compound is easily equal to siping. Nokians are a good example. They don't have a lot of siping, but people love them.
There's a reason tire reviews, especially stopping distances are so inconsistent. It's highly dependent upon snow types and vehicle.
Obviously another huge variable is age, temperature and storage of tires.
As to studs... they aren't costly to produce. In fact most studded tires are studded at the end seller. They are rough on roads and illegal in some spots (seasonally, for sure). A lot of manufactures have decided that they just aren't worth it anymore with new compounds and tread design. A lot of studded tires are legacy compounds and molds that they continue to produce for people that insist upon running them.
Weigh your own odds. What makes sense in one place may not in another. Our roads clear up pretty quickly. They use saline and rock to aid traction. I drive long distances down the hill regularly. Studs don't make sense for me. Keeping an extra set of 37's around doesn't make sense for me plus my Jeep is rarely on the highway. Studless snow tires make sense for my wife's SUV. My truck gets new tires every year. Always 3 Peak AT's.
Anyway, do you. I've probably beaten this horse for too long. He's dead.
Hard to compare a 80klb semi chained on 2-3 axles to a 5klb SUV on studs.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
To recap, because I forgot where we were even at:
Snow tires are better in snow. Run any reputable snow tire and you should be good. Replace them regularly. Some are marginally better than other.
Studs are where it's at if you're an ice road trucker (or live where your roads are straight ice for periods of time). Replace them regularly.
Some 3 Peak AT's are better than others. There's a big variation here and the rating system is relative dog shit. Of the current crop, I think the K03 will be a damned good tire for a lot of people and mixed use. Replace them regularly.
Mud tires could fucking kill you, but a lot of people A) can't drive B)are basing their experience on 20 year old BFG M/T's C) can't drive. There's a huge variation here. The Toyo MT is fucking good for what it is. A General Grabber MT or a BFG KM3 may kill you if you suck at life. Do not use mud tires if you are an ice road trucker or stud them (studs are a strong choice here). Firestone MT's can be studded. Duratrac's can be studded. If you want to go anywhere in the mud, but drive on ice a studded MT is your move. Blizzak LT's will get you stuck in the mud faster than you can read this shitty post. Oh, Replace them regularly.
That's all I've got. This thread is probably a waste of time. Definitely a waste of mine, but I've been drinking and I'm bored.
Edit: after reading all of that, I'm not sure if I sound more like Gaijin when he's been drinking or Bushwacka. I should go to bed.
My apologies.
I pretty much get a new set of winter tires every season. When they get down past halfway I just opt for a new set. Home on wheels here not sliding off to prolong spending a grand ish
Question for the snow tire experts and fake experts:
Regular tires are BFG Trail Terrains (they were on the car when I bought it).
Snow tires are Blizzak
Put the Blizzaks on and my MPG went up significantly. Is that supposed to happen?
Question for the snow tire experts and fake experts:
Regular tires are BFG Trail Terrains (they were on the car when I bought it).
Snow tires are Blizzak
Put the Blizzaks on and my MPG went up significantly. Is that supposed to happen?
Assuming same tire diameter, those Blizzaks are going to be lighter than the Trail Terrains, so better MPG. If there is a diameter difference, that will make the smaller tire appear to be better mpg than it truly is.
sounds like your tires were under-inflated?
I think the sizes are slightly different, but just very slightly. I'll have to check. Having lugged them in and out of the car last friday, they seemed to be similar in weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
don't think so, not according to the TPMS.Quote:
Originally Posted by m2711c