100 mm brake fits a 102 waist I assume?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
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100 mm brake fits a 102 waist I assume?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeLau
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I'm sorry to say that my girlfriend severed her achilles skiing Salomon MTN bindings yesterday. She was in a situation where she skied into a creek bank in flat light without seeing said creek bank. Both skis torpedoed into the snow and she needed a vertical release. Unfortunately, the bindings didn't release until her achilles completely tore. Her other foot has a possible broken bone (waiting on radiology to confirm/deny).
Surgery is getting scheduled in the next two days. Don't ski these bindings without knowing what you are getting into. There is some additional risk that is very worthy of consideration. Had her binding heal had a DIN certificatation and/or a better vertical release she likely would have walked away.
All ski bindings are designed to prevent bones breaking, not ligaments or tendons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevo
It was just bad luck.
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This sort of generalization isn't always accurate. I blew my achilles in a Duke, which is fully ISO 13992 certified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevo
Which spring was she using? What does she test out for on a DIN chart?
Bummer for your GF Kevo. I took the MTN tech off my wife's skis ASAP after reading this evaluation of approximate release values from wild snow.
Interestingly, the horizontal toe release with no heel spring installed is 6-7. That said, I bet a lot of men should be skiing the "w" spring. I normally set my din to 10, but I've been skiing the MTN with the "m" spring without issue.
And I blew my achilles in a jester.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregL
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That is a shitty injury and I hope she recovers as quick as possible.
I've been using these bindings for 2x seasons on all my touring rigs. I have had a full vertical release, when needed, with the expert springs.
Agreed, probably my worst orthopedic injury ever. Be patient; I was eager to get "back" and doing 40+ miles on the bike in the walking cast - broke the skin, got a staph infection, had to do the surgery over and flush all the parts with antibiotic . . . set me back 4 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by skisurfmirth
Jeez. This is a pleasant thread [emoji2357]
Either way those injuries suck, sorry to hear about your GF. I feel like on pin bindings you’re always taking a chance somewhere and hoping it doesn’t bite you in the ass.
Years ago, I locked out toes and got away with what could have been a few pretty bad outcome situations that could have really f’ed a knee.
I had a (what sounds like) a similar situation at the end of a pretty long run where I was pretty casually riding out the end of a creek drainage and didn’t see a gap and shorted it. Purely by luck I didn’t snap my Achilles since I had tip dive and no heel ejection. Lots of luck and maybe being more flexible at the time.
Sorry to hear and vibes with soonest of recovery.
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Still 100% on my informal tib/fib and tibial plateau patients skiing low cuff touring boots and pins in the resort. No matter what the guy at REI says it’s not a quiver of one.
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I blew an ACL one year ago in a baron with alpine boots so a full DIN setup at only 7, sometimes you are unlucky
my buddy blew an achilles at pretty much the same time and he is skiing already while i still have 5months of rehab left, its going well but still the Achilles is way easier to repair than a knee
i been whining about the safety aspects of minimalist bindings for years and this is the first time I have ever seen it discussed
What's your rough guess at a total number of folks you've asked?Quote:
Originally Posted by detrusor
I did my tibial plateau in Mach1s and STH2s...Quote:
Originally Posted by detrusor
Sorry to hear that @Kevo.
Sure folks have gotten hurt on alpine binders. Lots of folks here also set their binders (shall we say) aggressively. Hardly even anecdotal data.
U-pin rears ... 6-8-10-12 ... pick one. What about when 7 is your sweet spot? I'm with @xxx-er on this.
Luck surely comes into play, but I'm all for stacking the odds in my favor.
... Thom
That's a bad crash mode too, with any release mechanism. All the force is going in an unhelpful direction initially. Boot fit and stiffness contribute to how much force ends up vertical (relative to ski).
Super bummed to hear about her injury, hoping for the best on surgery and recovery.
Really it's "don't ski without knowing what you are getting into." Shit happens. Stay safe everybody!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevo
She was using the w spring. Her normal din setting is 5-6.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregL
Interesting to hear of other similar injuries in alpine bindings. The only time in memory that I've needed a vertical release was when I buried a ski tip under a downed tree in Pivots and had a very smooth, low impact release. Maybe I got lucky.
Honestly, there are so many variables here. I double ejected full-vertical release on a snow snake earlier this year on Dynafits set to 10 for vertical release. I usually ski a DIN of 8.5 or 9.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevo
It's a shitty injury. Likely could've happened in many other binding types too. But no doubt it is made more likely and unpredictable when you have non-adjustable values and the sheer inconsistency of release forces in tech bindings.
Good luck on the rehab.
So sorry Kevo. Hope she heals up quickly. Sending good vibes your way.
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As Cody Townsend said in a podcast or video I was listening to, "tech bindings are fucking dangerous."
Interesting, that's why they decided to create the shift! That way I double eject every time I drop anything > 3 ft.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowaddict91
/s (but kinda serious)
the Dynafit Verticals are ok for me lateraly at 7 but I gotta turn the vertical release up to 8 so I often run verticals at the ski hill cuz I wana run the 120's they are attached to and i can get a very reliable release pattern doing the 7/8 thing
so IME turning up 1 DIN like setting on a techs or any binding for that matter is enough to make or break on release
but U springs go up in 2 DIN (like) increments and whatever one runs can not be adjusted
but they are light
Not only did I tear my Achilles skiing an alpine binding, but it also released in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevo
I don't know why it tore.
As many have said... lots of variables at play.
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In the same podcast where he says that he also claims that he was skiing the shift in his last msp segment before the shift was publicly released. He said he literally broke the plastic in half of his ski boots on some big cliff sends and didn’t eject while skiing the shift. Good listen on blisterQuote:
Originally Posted by thejongiest
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And points out that most people reporting pre-releases are almost always skiing poorly adjusted bindings. And that the Shifts are particularly particular about precise adjustments.Quote:
Originally Posted by altacoup
this is true. i am one of those people. i own my mistake for poorly adjusting the shift, but at the time, salomon had put out very little information to the general public about how to properly set the forward pressure on the binding. that mistake cost me $10k, so, uh, i'm kinda salty.Quote:
Originally Posted by doebedoe
The Amer info is still sketchy and the tech manual still says to set a half mm AFD clearance :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tgapp
how much clearance does the afd need?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyderjon
I have mine just slightly touching my sole. But I’ve been doing this with all Salomon bindings for years. As I find when there’s a gap problems arise. The forward pressure on the shift has a minuscule sweet spot and must be in that sweet spot. AFD adjustment is also a pain. AMER’s instructions are a joke. I wouldn’t trust any shift set up by most shops. Spyderjon I’d trust for sure. Leelau has the best description on how to properly set binding. Find it on newschoolers. I’ve found mine to be one hundred percent reliable since I set them up correctly.
There have been several instances of MTN bindings failing to vertically release and causing injuries buried in the Wildsnow archives. Its hard to say if this is just because the MTN is by far the most popular U-spring binding on the market and people are running springs too strong, but the reality is there are way more reported instances online of people getting injured in these situations with MTN bindings than any other binding. This is not an isolated incident, and I have not come across similarly scary reports from people with tech bindings with adjustable vertical release.
I helped my GF put together a touring setup last summer. She was able to get the MTN for $200 thru her work, and because I stress about this stuff I insisted she spend the extra $$ on something with adjustable vertical release. It was a tough sell but stories like these confirm my suspicions about the binding, especially for smaller skiers.
I'm a crappy skier and fall all the time. I have had multiple vertical releases in my Crests, and many vertical releases in the Ions I had before. I trust adjustable vertical release in tech bindings, and this issue is not shared across the tech binding spectrum it is specific to U spring bindings and perhaps it is specific just to the MTN binding that misrepresents its heel spring release values and has abnormally strong toe springs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgapp
^ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by altacoup
30 plusQuote:
Originally Posted by John_B
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detrusor
Given the above and it seems like there is a correlation between tech bindings and injuries. Sure, there are lots of variables and it is possible to get hurt in any binding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benneke10
I do also wonder if the MTN is worse more injury prone than other tech bindings.
I took my GF to a follow up with an ortho today. She got an MRI on the achilles and also got her opposite foot looked at. Said foot has had increasing swelling since Friday and she can't put weight on it. Turns out the ER doc and the radiologist over the weekend missed that she's also got a broken talus in her other foot from the binding not releasing until she slammed her foot hard inside her boot.
She had a CT scan today to see if the talus is fractured all the way through or not. If not, she'll be in a cast/boot for 6-8 weeks. If it is, she'll likely need surgery which would be a major bummer since she's already needing the achilles surgery in her other foot.
Sorry about your girlfriend, Kevo. Sounds like a brutal injury.
My take on tech binding safety:
They aren't. Try not to fall.
My other take on tech bindings safety:
TUV certified tech bindings will release more consistently across different boots, but they still aren't comparable to alpine bindings. Still try not to fall.
My last take on tech bindings safety:
Speculation about which bindings are safer than others is just that: speculation. Do you know who popularized the whole "U springs are less safe" thinking? G3, whose Zed's weigh 100g more than MTN's for similar performance and, I'm fairly certain, don't sell nearly as well. Think they might be biased? (note that I own neither binding)
So go ahead and try to make the safest choice you can. If you pick Tecton/Vipec because they might protect your bones, I get it. Totally valid way of choosing bindings. But consider if you're basing your decision based on information that originated with a marketing department, and note that it doesn't mean much for a binding to be safer "in theory." Even if you manage to crack the code and choose the safest tech binding, it probably won't release as reliably as and alpine binding, so you should try not to fall.
If you aren't going to try not to fall, consider Shift, Cast, or if you are foolhardy, those silly Markers.
I think about this stuff differently than most people seem to.
The issue with tech bindings should be that they release when you don’t want the to... not that they don’t release properly. The design issues hinge around a lack of elasticity (and some inconsistency). Why do we assume a backcountry binding needs to have the same RV as a resort binding? Ski conditions are completely different. Hopefully you’re not mashing moguls in the backcountry. People who want one setup that works in both conditions are really asking for issues because tech bindings need to be cranked down to work in the resort which is super sketchy.
Essentially that means you run a lower RV than normal and see how low you can get while keeping your skis on in most conditions. People often try to compensate for tech bindings with poor retention (due to elasticity) by cranking RV the other direction.
The issue with the injury described seems to be that the MTN binding doesn’t release for lighter skiers because the RV value is higher than advertised. What I take from this is that a binding like that ATK crest 8 with an RV of 3-8 is good for lighter skiers.
Thanks for posting the injury news. Super sorry to hear that and fingers crossed for a single surgery.
In the same podcast Cody mentions that an ortho he knows in Jackson hole told him that since the proliferation of tech bindings he’s seen way more injuries. Also the la liste guys are hiking in CAST system and alpine boots with no walk mode. La Liste 2 will show them skiing 6K peaks. So no need for ultra light to tour. Just get in shape
Sucks for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevo
My injuries to lower extremities have all been with fully certified bindings, so far nothing but a separated shoulder with many different light tech bindings. IMO you need to go up in weight class to really improve consistency of vertical release (spring-loaded systems as opposed to friction from two small pins stuck in your boot heel) and unfortunately I'm not willing to lug that sort of binding uphill all day. Not sure what the solution is for your girlfriend, but I wish her the speediest and most thorough recovery possible.
you can buy a binding that releases at " A Value " and attempt to ski TO that Value or buy a binding that you can adj to your skiing
Take everything Cody says with a grain of salt since he wants to sell Shifts. That said I believe him here, but the issue is most likely the proliferation of tech bindings inbounds, and especially people skiing inbounds with locked toes which I see a lot at Alta and is surely a thing in Jackson as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by altacoup
^^^
Tons of people skiing pin bindings in bounds. I don’t get it. They suck on variable inbound snow. And lock out the toes and all of a sudden you’re skiing like a DIN 30 in the toe. I have one buddy who spiral fractured his tibia due to this.
I think a lot of them don't know any better. Marketing doesn't help.Quote:
Originally Posted by altacoup