this ^^^ stands out the most for me in that post.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
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this ^^^ stands out the most for me in that post.Quote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
Guys- Thanks for your responses and extra detail. You have been very vocal about this incident and to me there seemed to be missing pieces that the everyday skier could potentially take away, so appreciate your going deeper into your thoughts and choices that day.
OM- Thanks and I see you on the Teton thread trying to spread the info and stoke. I'm not hung up on the ego thing- as was discussed earlier, it wasn't the preferred nomenclature but I think it has lead to a good discussion on what it is. (And I'm only in my early 30's too- haha so we are not too different) I totally did stupid things in my early yrs, but not when I had the benefit of all the avy training/bc experience you guys had. I mean no disrespect when I say that- but where the everyday skier might benefit from your mistakes and think twice, or pinpoint the errors before they escalated might just save one more person. Which I think you guys would like.
Shralp- thanks for your responses too. Ok yes- the extra education steps/element def make sense for that publication.
And I guess I had hoped to hear you guys say what you said- that nobody in your group was trying to score that line and it was just a complex, but sorta simple thing that can get easily messed up in the name of fun and stoke.
How can we instill this danger upon our friends and visitors? Since, ahem OM :wink:, I still have many friends that are younger/new to here-(or live here but still just make poor BC decisions- egad I feel like the wilson moms can be the worst side country offenders @JH always going out Why Not etc with no packs) Anyway- how can we get them to not forget what they know because it's an amazing day w/ amazing friends? seems like this is still a newer factor in avy awareness that has not been totally addressed in avy courses despite a few incident PM's that I'm afraid only people that are already slightly more aware would read anyway.
Maybe this the curse of living in paradise that we get easily euphoric even if it leads to our demise- an almost rapture of the deep but in the mtns instead?
Ok I wish I could think of a better example than the DARE program when I was a kid (FD: the program didn't totally work on me :) ) but something in this sense could be added to avy curriculum or maybe an encouraged mantra that could taught about living to ski another day or something. Dorky but might've helped here since the guys were a bit blinded to the dangers, being new to the zone + and the lowering to moderate etc etc.
A bit of a digression but I've also wondered if it would be illegal to add a few frames of avy awareness messages to online ski videos. believe subliminal msgs are- but I bet it could be mildly effective haha
it's a nice sentiment, but hardly accurate. I'd love to know how anyone believes he/she can read another's mind/motives. humans frequently say one thing about their motives/mindset, while harboring something different as a real motive/outlook. sometimes this is conscious (people feel shame, enjoy secrecy, etc) and sometimes it's unconscious (young, lacking self-awareness, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
baby bear's asking some good Qs.
Babybear, all good things. To me, it all boils down to risk tolerance and teaching "absences" is tough. I spent 6 seasons touring all over colorado where I was taught Avy 1 and workshops by very conservative educators. This, along with the often sketchy colorado snowpack kept me on my toes, mostly avoiding avalanche paths until solid melt/freeze cycles in the spring. This was my third season in the Tetons, where a "intermountain" snowpack has led me to step into bigger lines (especially last season). This year was different and I dropped my guard that day on pucker with the persistent problem threat. On top of that was a terrible selection of a terrain choice.
I think one of the biggest lessons I learned from this tragedy other then my previously stated human factors is that persistent weaknesses are SERIOUS. 8 years ago I was taught this in Avy 1 and also when I retook the avy 1 from Exum last year. Unfortunately I did not truly learn how dangerous persistent weaknesses are until pucker. Craig Gordon at Utah Avy does a great job of stressing this point and I think it has a lot of value.
Going back to my first Avy 1 class with an instructor crew out of Aspen. Those guys included a lot of "ski to live another day" curriculum, often stressing how conservative they skied and it scared the shit out of me. It worked! Last season Nat and Ron at Exum touched on skiing smart and sustainability but not like my previous class years ago. A lot had changed in those 8 years between classes with the direction heading into higher consequence lines like jhveteran spoke of.
Happy Sunday
it stood out for me because 2 of the group had a "driving thirst to score that specific line at that specific time." all it takes is one in that mindset for a whole group to end up following along, even if there is no assigned leader... my observation is that the "convincing" by the individual (or individuals) for the group to follow their desires can be unconscious by all in the group, including the ones with the specific desires.Quote:
Originally Posted by creaky fossil
ah. definitely agree with that. to me the bigger issue is someone having a personal drive (ego, stoke, whatever) that propels him/her past what is smart and into what is, in relative terms, reckless. this can be from ignorance (don't know the risks, or the extent even if risks acknowledged), from cockiness (I'm a good skier etc), or from an alpha/top dog orientation socially.Quote:
Originally Posted by bodywhomper
First off, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. That sucks. It's very admirable that you guys have been honest about your mistakes and discussing them in the open. It really does help others myself included.
Make no doubt about it, making good decisions is the hardest part about backcountry skiing. I get the analysis of the group dynamic, trying to create checklists...all of that. I'd encourage your to perhaps think about it in more simple terms however.
It seems to me that ya'll individually had the skills and knowledge to ID Pucker as a bad objective given the conditions. For whatever reason, the decision to walk away was not made.
Be a dick! Safety is not the time to be worried about other people's feelings. A lot of people thing I'm an asshole in the backcountry. I don't care. Say what you need to say loud. If it is not being listened too, say it again. Lead by example, " I am not skiing that". "Check you guys later, I'm going back to the resort". You'd be surprised at how many times your friends will follow the lead.
I'm not trying to be preachy. Point is, you know how to make good decisions, so do it. You knew on the tram deck that the dynamic was dangerous. Step to it and deal with it. If you think its a bad scene, let it be known.
The situation you found yourself in is happening everyday in Jackson, Europe, Utah, BC etc. Making good decisions will mean watching others shred the gnar. Collectively we have to accept that and live to ski another day. Those lines aren't going anywhere. It will snow again. RIP Mike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
this is the part i don't get about groupthink. the larger number the greater the possibility of a dick in the group. but those aren't the stories you hear about. i've got zero problem being a dick. of course, sometimes i don't know enough to be a dick. then i just fall back on my default dickness.
Maybe intuitively, but they all failed to recognize the dynamic--despite training, reading incident reports about Tunnel Creek, etc. And that was one of first points made at the top of the thread and the purpose of this whole exercise: helping otherwise smart, avy-savvy people recognize when they're in a situation where they may not be making good judgment calls and not be realizing it, a la the massive lot of "industry" people, who otherwise should have known better, involved in the Tunnel Creek incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
Agreed Light Ranger. All I'm saying is that is on us collectively. Checklists and flash cards can help that but ultimately we need to speak up, say what we feel and worry about people's feeling later.
It's hard. I probably deal with it about once a week. I had to tell one of my wife's friends she wasn't welcome on a tour. She came over the next night for dinner. That shit is tough.
We need to all be hyper aware of our and other's decision making. This is why, IMO, it is best to tour with people you know real well (skiing and other wise). Be able to read their body language and voice, look in there eyes, know where they are at emotionally. Do the same for yourself.
Great points light ranger and foggy goggles!
For sure. Good comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
This thread has been really awesome. Getting to sticky status.
Thanks all for the good and respectful discussion.
bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
rog
This guy has got it exactly right.Quote:
Originally Posted by baby bear
Ego lead this group to confuse their experience ( they had a lot of experience ) with their skills ( low skill despite being experienced ). This is a very classic problem in many domains; it is in fact so common that there is in standard English an aphorism for it: "a little knowledge can be very dangerous". After a significant failure, it is just common sense to acknowledge that knowing how to do something is not the same as knowing how to do something the right way.
This group clearly knew how to tour, but lacked the skills to tour safely, both collectively and as individuals. Unfortunately, they managed to convince themselves otherwise with tragic results. The winter snowpack is stable at most times, and most places relative to normal triggering forces... and I think this party was used to getting away with it. Here's why: the fact that those involved in this accident are now suggesting/re-iterating basic safety protocols ( the importance of which is already known; I could spend days citing the prior art ) tells me that they had been ignoring basic safety protocols for a long time.
If anyone is interested in learning from true masters, Martin Volken, Margaret Wheeler, and Scott Schell have written an absolutely wonderful book on backcountry ski touring. Following the practises outlined in the book helped me replace a lot of bad habits ( that I was taught and that I fell into ) with solid best practises - and my bad habits were at least as bad as this party's. It might not seem like a lot to plan ALL your trips properly, but it totally changed my outlook on nearly every aspect of the sport.
Personally, I think the state of avalanche education is perfectly fine. People devote incredible resources to finding the time and money to buy gear and stay fit, but they have incredibly unrealistic expectations about the cerebral aspects of the sport. The fact of the matter is that developing real skills takes focused effort. Not just reading idiot blogs ( like the one I write ) and articles. That's just reading without learning.
By guy you mean girl, or ?
The whole discussion of ego as not being the right term for this dynamic was covered well on the previous page, and that makes good sense to me. It seems maybe too subtle to quibble over the terms, but it's important not to leave the impression that as long as everyone in the group stays humble they'll be safe; I think a careful read here says the opposite in this case.
On Sunday I was skiing inbounds and noticed essentially the same dynamics in a discussion of where to ski--obviously in a discussion that didn't involve avy risk at all and was all about figuring out where everyone would have fun. I'm hoping Oceanman and SM can comment on the similarity or difference here compared to the usual inbounds group decisions. Because if I'm reading you right so far it sounds a lot like the typical situation where people are focusing on not stepping on each other's toes, as we do when trying to reach a consensus about what sounds fun to everybody, what everyone is comfortable skiing, etc. Of course, one risk of side country is not starting off in the backcountry mindset, and it sounds like that was a major factor here.
The fact that we know larger groups are more apt to contain a dick or two is the exact reason people try not to be "that guy." Normal heuristic for a group: that which builds stoke avoids disagreement and fails at critical reasoning as a result.
Thanks again for the openness, guys.
Another good post, CM.
There are now beginner level avalanche course curriculums which contain valuable reality-check lessons on Avalanche Decision Making Competency. Part of these lessons highlight the continuum of competency as training and experience combine. An intermediate decision maker is described as having perhaps 10 days of total avalanche training (recreational level 1 + level 2) combined with perhaps 2-4 seasons of getting out at least twice a month each season for a total perhaps 80-100 days of applied critical avalanche decision making using the systems that you were taught in those 10 days of course training.Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieMonster
With a full time M-F jobs and 2 weeks leave a year, most people who make the commitment to accumulate that amount of combined training and winter experience feel that they are Advanced decision makers. Some even consider themselves Experts. I think that is being a little ambitious.
i can certainly see why some people prefer to go solo.
Besides the dangerous lack of mutual physical support in an emergency, so do I, but then conversely:Quote:
Originally Posted by spook
Due to circumstances, 80-90 of my 120 backcountry days each season are solo. This presents me with a difficult overconfidence emotional bias/problem when I get the rare chance to ski with an appropriate partner on a day when conditions appear appropriate for rewarding terrain. It can really scare me how much my risk appetite sky rockets.
No contest from me on this quote or the heart of Cookie Monster's post (relating to skill).Quote:
Originally Posted by neck beard
Instead I choose to point out that the vast and overwhelming majority of backcountry users that I have met, from Washington to California to Wyoming and Norway, are not at a level of what Cookie Monster would refer to as basic competence. The culture of continual re-education, retraining, and excellence in skill does not appear to be the norm unless I am touring with true professionals (observers, forecasters, educators). Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that survey data corroborates my anecdote as the current state of today's user group. Would you still stick to your guns that there is nothing that needs to be changed about avalanche education?
If it is the basics that the majority of accident victims are missing, and yet the bulk of these victims are products of an educational system that has reviewed these basics, then do we take a fatalistic approach to the victims ("it really is them, and not us, who are involved") or do we seek to find improvement in the system?
I'm not advocating so much for changes in what is taught, more so in how it is taught. And this is not intended as a point of shifting personal blame either, more so as a goal of improving culture and common practice.
What matters a lot is what you do after your education. It is a real advantage to be involved full time in the business, but unrealistic for most obviously. However, weekenders can certainly imitate professional/operational habits in a recreational context:Quote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
1. You and your team (or just yourself) can use the avalanche bulletin and weather forecast along with recent data from reliable locals as primary inputs to your pre-tour hazard analysis. You can then come up with an "operational plan" for the day based on your expectations, considering your group and the terrain you will encounter.
2. Then when you are in the field you can compare what you observe (weather, snow, terrain) to what you expected and visualized pre-tour. With field observations you can attempt - only when prudent - to come up with your own on-slope investigation/verification of the hazard on that particular slope using your own on-slope data.
3. With that investigation/verification, you can modify your operational plan as required on-slope and use terrain to manage your exposure to the hazard - your risk.
Every day you go backcountry skiing, view it as an outing of an avalanche operational team (highways, mines, forestry, mechanized skiing, patrol, ski guiding etc). In your case, private ski touring. Be your own avalanche operation. Too often people see themselves primarily as a team of backcountry skiers who make avalanche decisions. Perhaps better to see yourself firstly as an operational avalanche team who makes decisions about skiing. Avalanches first, skiing second.
Do that ^ enough times and you will be amazed how your competency improves. Before I was ever involved in the industry I wrote out my own hazard analysis (avalanche bulletin) and operational plan, on paper, every single morning. Then when I came home, I reviewed how it went. I now teach beginner and intermediate courses.
There are no doubt many great support resources available, I certainly do not know them all, however in your research I seriously recommend that you buy a copy of a field note book called Decision Making in Avalanche Terrain. Amongst several good items, it contains a daily trip planning form which will support you in formulating a simplified hazard analysis and a decent operational plan [tour plan]. Then once in the field it guides you in what observations matter the most and helps you compare them in reality to what you expected over coffee that morning. It will not be entirely tailored to your being in the US, however you can consider the method and adopt as you see fit. I really recommend at least seeing how it is done in that school of thought.
The most important thing: if your buddies scoff or sneer at you for using a support system like a field book, then they are unwilling to acknowledge the nature of the risk and unwilling to discuss it openly in a common sense and equitable mature manner. Don't ski with them. I'd gladly ski a run with a weekender who skinned up to me one early afternoon and asked if I'd seen any activity, then wrote my answer in his notebook, then told me about a shooting crack he saw. It would be my privilege to encounter that opportunity more often.
The question with all those experiences is where and when? It's easy to acquire days without much advanced critical decision making (particularly if you are a weekend warrior). unless your job is the mountains in some way every form of work drags you away for too much time.Quote:
Originally Posted by neck beard
honestly, I'm curious how much truly advanced decision making occurs. ex post facto rationalizations aren't advanced here.
True, and those days don't really count*. I've met some people with 200 days in the backcountry, but only ever on mostly low angle and nearly always a wind hammered melt-freeze literally bomb-proof snowpack with a 20cm storm every week if they are very lucky. And those people are virtually useless once they are avalanche terrain with a dynamic avalanche prone snowpack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Conway
Days which count might include:
- days in avalanche terrain with people more experienced than you (mentored days)
- days applying a structured and consistent decision making system in Challenging or Complex avalanche terrain.
- days spent in a different avalanche prone snowpack to the one in which you usually operate.
They are valuable days of experience.
* note: a decision to ski in simple non-avalanche terrain appropriate to High avalanche danger is a good day of decision making from a planning perspective. And although it may not entail any critical slope-scale decision making, it should not be discouraged. Besides, days like that are great for investigating shooting cracks and other signs of instability with friends on miniature (12 feet high?) test slopes and cut banks in otherwise non-avalanche terrain.
This is a really brilliant post. I think these are especially important:Quote:
Originally Posted by neck beard
Quote:
Originally Posted by neck beard
Yes, exactly. And it really is an amazing change. You get into the right habits and the bad habits become so much easier to pick out. Planning, and getting into the habit of sticking to a plan ( except if you decide to turn around ) makes it so much easier to avoid the "silent" escalation of risk ( and the evaporation of margin of safety ) that seems to play a part in so many accidents.Quote:
Originally Posted by neck beard
I like this. It's simple and practicalQuote:
Originally Posted by neck beard
Good thoughts neck beard. All in, this is definitely at subscribed status, approaching sticky almost.
Speaking of group dynamics, amazing how civil we can be in this case and really have an opportunity to learn something. Thanks.
I am glad people like the sound of those ideas. Just to be clear: they are not all my original thoughts. Some of this is taught in existing intermediate avalanche courses. And it makes sense.
Yes, I do think it's funny when people think I'm a dude. Most of you guys here have a sweet ski photo, boobies, etc for avatars-but I respect the guys that would respect a dude with a cute cuddly baby polar bear as an avatar haha.
I'd say generally skiers/outdoors people tend to be easier going, more likely to go with the flow, etc. Maybe this is one of the many root causes for some of these incidents?Quote:
Originally Posted by jono
I kind of like this 'Be a Dick' motto.
TC Search and Rescue seems to have a decent amount of funds (it seems like every other fundraiser in Jackson is for SAR- but of course we go to them all for SAR karma!) But wonder if they'd be interested in printing some stickers or adopting some new mottos to highlight the 'group element/ overstoked' factor that is becoming more of a factor in avi's recently?
One of my coworkers is on sar/somewhat new JH Avalanche board so I could ask if they have resources/ the need for a new creative slogan. They've had beer coasters in the past couple yrs that have little slogans like "Don't be the last one in for apres" but I think this Be a Dick thing could take on.
Weighing in late as we just got back from 3 weeks pretty much offline.
So glad to see this thoughtful conversation. I worked really hard with Schralp to bring about that article in TAR. Have been pondering the question of how to make a real shift in the decision-making of "experienced" groups. Seems from my experience that no-one wants to take too much time (eg 14 point checklists) but in real/ actual experienced groups there is a "no-bullshit" moment where everyone is completely invested/ involved, and all it takes is a shrug from one person that means "I don't like it," to choose another shot to ski.
I worked in circles around this in my editorial in that same TAR (http://www.americanavalancheassociat...blications.php ). It's like grade school math where the teacher makes you do long division and show your work until you get it right every time. Without the teacher present to check your work, you gotta have perfect protocols and enough self/ situational awareness to see what you missed, what is going on
It takes a lot of practice to recognize what are the important questions to ask for different situations; I think we are getting there by having the avalanche problem at the center of the discussion, but for many people, the concept of consequences is hard to grasp until/ unless they have experienced a close call or incident such as pucker face themselves, up close and personal. This shit is real.
looked 4 ya after the ussws, but had to bail to thanks ya, for takin the time and havin the courage to get up tell the story, whatcha learnt, what others could learn or need to consider andQuote:
Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio
honoring your bro w/ these actions and words
both you and LA, who the mrs. and i have shared turns with gave awesome presentations
pretty stoked on the propsed avvy edjucation moving away from the cookie cutter merit badge been there done that into an enthusiast/professional aspects with continued ed seminars and separate companion rescue course.
Ive always felt group dynamics is the most important and hardest thing to really understand and it's effects on decisions and actions.
Timely bump SFB. Just got around to this issue on Thursday.Well said HMS. This was a great issue - your editorial was excellent. Hats off the Blase Reardon - Mr Magoo is a great metaphor for backcoumtry travel. And totally agree that it's hard to truly learn the necessary humility without up close experience - there's a lot of evidence about how poorly we assess Black Swan events. Great to see educators shift focus a little - prolly time to take another refresher.Quote:
Originally Posted by homemadesalsa
Shralp, much respect for sharing your experience in TAR. Thought provoking and showed a lot of heart. Had to be tough on many levels. I hope you are finding some semblance of peace
Thanks Dibbs, sorry we didn't get to hook up. Linda is a great person and the two of us talked quite a bit after her presentation. Maybe we'll all get some turns together this winter.Quote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum
It was good to catch up with Bob Comey, Chris McCollister from BTAC, also homemadesalsa. Of course Kowboy, Tremper, Gordon - those guys are great. Hardesty too, great words.
That was my first USAW event, and I was pretty impressed. Great conversations at dinner and lunch with industry and educational leaders.
There are times that it isn't easy to talk about specific things ... For example, it's hard for me to talk to certain folks from BTAC and JH Patrol and thank them for their selflessness and putting themselves in harms way without tearing up. But if sharing my story and ideas helps move the ball forward in American avalanche education and safety, then I'm all for it. It's better to get some good created in the aftermath of our accident, than to be quiet and get nothing.
overall i thought it was good
judging from the show of hands i think the braaaaaappppppp demographic was next door buying guns n ammo:wink:
i wouda like to heard the pow mow instability presentation or more about the mnt accord over the save the highmarkers videos
i understand the importance of getting the bc safety word out to that group , but they sure spent a lot of time on a demographic that wasn't present.
the one thing i took from your talk that always strikes me as odd is the amount of creedence and decision making that goes into someones 1 word descriptive adjective of avvy danger.
low don't mean no and high doesn't make terrain change.
i wish they would just post the compass rose and not even bother w/ an overall daily rating.
I don't really have anything of substance to add to this, so I'll just quote it and say +1. Wish I would have had the chance to chat with both you guys, but I ended up running into a couple people I hadn't seen in awhile as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by skifishbum
SFB, I was sitting behind you, and was looking out for ya at beer:30, but must have missed you.
Shame about the scheduling conflict with the gun show, I was looking for a new touring-specific gat, and hoping to get two birds stoned at once. After all, there are a lot of porcupines in the Wasatch backcountry.
Nothing to add to this thread other than to thank Shralph for taking what must be an absolutely gut wrenching experience, and rather than shutting down, going out and sharing the experience and trying to help make avalanche education better.
:yourock:
Shralp, I told you this in person, but it's worth putting up on the board: so proud of you for not just what adrenalated refers to above:
"taking what must be an absolutely gut wrenching experience, and rather than shutting down, going out and sharing the experience and trying to help make avalanche education better."
but also for being brave with yourself, for owning the experience inside and then in public, in the TAR article, the Tahoe presentation, and at USAW. That owning of the experience is what gives you the gravitas to have people really listen to you, take seriously your suggestions and ideas, and ultimately for you to move beyond it more deeply. Thanks again.
Thanks Shralp, for bringing your observations and insights to the annual JH Avi Awareness night this thursday-
link