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Yeah the boots are all stock components -- so the footbed/insole are just what the boots came with. I am not sure on the degree of misalignment -- I have been skiing this way for years without pain so I doubt it is super severe. I really want to get this figured out, I just am having trouble finding someone to do so in the area.
Okay, so here is a ghetto approach to try to gain some insight until you can make your way to a solid bootfitter (weekend in Banff to visit mtnlion?)
Go to Bozeman Running Company and pick up some green Superfeet trim-to-fits. Take them home, remove the liner from your boots and slide the footbeds into the shells. LIne them up where they ought to be, and step into the shell. Take some cardboard, and have someone place cardboard under the inside sole of the left boot,no more than a centimeter or so in from the edge. As they build up the cardboard, or sheets of thick paperpay attention to how your foot feels. Is the weight distributing more evenly? How much is too much? Once you find an amount that is comfortable, step out and measure how much you needed built up under the boot sole to feel balanced. Now, Take some narrow strips of duck tape (a centimeter wide at most, and lay them along the bottom of the footbed on the inside, to build it up. Start with about half of what you measured under the bootsole. Place the footbed back in the boot, and step back in. look at your ankle bones...is one side closer to the shell than the other? If so, adjust the duck tape height.
This is not an ideal approach, you really need a bootfitter to fit you properly with some footbeds. But you can play with this at home to get closer to figuring out where you need to be.
mntlion, you are doing everyone a great service here, and I would appreciate your help. I have always had a problem with ski boots because of my extremely narrow and bony feet. I also haves tiny calves (like a Kenyan) and I wear custom orthotics. Many have told me that Lange makes the narrowest boots but I would like advice from an expert before heading to my local ski shop in Madison, WI.
just about everyone makes a really narrow, boot but the stores might not bring it in (and maybe not in madison) Lange, and everyone else also make really wide boots too.
Most of the narrow boots will be called "race boots" or plug boots: this is just marketing for narrow and stiff. The narrow will work well for you, the stiff can be made softer (I take lots of nordica WC150's and make them 100 flex)
get the fit right, and make the flex what you need. dont be scared to move buckles to smaller settings too.
look for the nordica WC, lange WC, rossi radical, and fulltilt might be narrow enough too, but that is just my guess, let YOUR feet tell YOU.
soup: what is the length and width of your foot? just wondering HOW narrow it is.
I have similar issues as you and have Factors as well. Before you start going crazy with canting I would really recommend you try some Sole footbeds and an Intuition liner. I use these in all my boots and they work wonders as well as make the boot lighter, warmer and more comfortable. Most stock footbeds are basically throw aways and the stock Factor liners are not that great either. Even if you end up needing other stuff done to the boot you won't regret having a better footbed and liner in there, and it may fix your problems so you don't need to do anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by NWFlow
Weasel and nate -- thanks for the help, really appreciate it. Going to try some footbeds from PHD skis?
Length: 26.5 cmQuote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
Width: 95 mm
Heel Width: 50 mm
soup: ya, what I said. I was just checking to see HOW narrow
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWFlow
Yep, if you wanna shell out $150 for fancy footbeds, Ph.D. is your best bet. Call a couple days in advance to make an appointment. I've been working there for the past couple of years and I'm convinced that the owner Kevin is the best bootfitter around, if you can tolerate his opinionated rantings.Quote:
Originally Posted by NWFlow
Boot fitting sucks but its what keeps you going all day. I have to boot fit people pretty often and its funny cause they think its a one or two step process but it took me personally ages to find a boot and then fit it. First I had to find boots that didn't give me wicked shin bang and then when I found those boots it still took me a good three weeks of fiddling and packing out and attaching foam here and there to get it so that:
a) It didnt hurt
b) so that I didnt feel sloppy inside the boot (narrow feet). I am in a 98mm last (kryptons) at the moment...
So after reading the post it seems like a lot of the measures are really expensive.... Custom foot beds seem like a good idea but just from general complaints its been about pressure points and the like. Where do the custom foot beds besides maybe from a support stand point improve the fit? Well that question sounds retarded of course it is better but how is it better than swapping for a middle range orthopedic one.
And a question concerning really narrow 3 piece boots. I slipped into a pair of Salomon plugs from this year 96mm last and they felt soo bomber but I know I cant wear 4 buckle boots cause I get shin bang so bad when I walk it feels like shin splints. Does anyone make 96mm last 3 piece boots cause the kryptons are dope and everything but the more I ski in them the more packed out they get and slowly adding material to make up for what should I call it, lateral foot slop in the boot i.e its still too wide. The easy thing to do is just get new liners and no biggie but I am full on the limit width wise. As soon as the liners start to pack out I get slop again. What I have seen are intuition liners but can they really get a 98mm to squeeze in tight like a 96mm and then not pack out quickly.
Long question but what I really want to know is how to get some 96mm last 3 piece boots or make a 98 feel like a 96mm.
1) 3 prt boots dont solve shin bang. boots that fit solve shin bang
2) Fulltilt is narrower then Kryptons. [ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2168120"]full tilt vs krypton boot info - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]
3) lots of boots are out there that are narrower then Krptons (claim 99, but seem wider) Just about all companies make a narrower models and wider models
salomon = ghost, falcon, X3 all 98mm
nordica = WC and pro shapes
Technica = makes 95 and 98mm
Lange = both 92, 95, 98mm in the past few years
keep in mind that "Race" boots just = narrow and stiff. You can make ANY boot wider, and softer, so find a fit that works, and make it softer if needed.
If you HAVE to have 3 prt, and need narrow, try the FT's on.
Great thread, and I plan to read every post but I have questions.
I just put Intuition Power Wraps in a T1 shell. I have never used a liner that had this height (last boot was a Synergy). After taking 2 runs, my calves were very uncomfortable. The liners have not been baked yet, and the footbed is stock, for now. I am 5' 8".
Q: Will I get used to this? they skied fine, but when i stopped they were very uncomfortable. Is this plainly the wrong liner? Do you recommend a brand or model of liner that will be preferable to this one?
Thanks
Bake the liners. Now.
Skiing an intuition liner unbaked is like driving a ferrari without tires on the wheels....you can do it, but it sure isn't fun and makes a very strange noise.
1). What mtnlion said. All of it. Esp. the part about shin bang. Chances are you have too much movement in the boots you have been trying, and I don't mean just that they were too big. Improper underfoot positioning and support can translate to vertical heel movement and shin bang. See previous posts in this thread regarding balance and positioning exercises.Quote:
Originally Posted by sqikunst
2). Custom, while sometimes very helpful, is NOT necessary. After years of building and skiing custom footbeds, I now use a $55 ALINE footbed in all of my boots. Period. Check it out, get fit, save some cash. Not a shill, just a convert.
lol. thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by weasel1
any thoughts on the 2" height difference (Intuition>Garmont) and how it would affect my calf/Achilles, or will the baking and being in ski shape be enough?
Baking will likely solve the issue. If it is still annoying post-bake, then take a hair dryer to the tops of the liners (carefully!!!) while they are on your feet, and slowly work them away from your leg at the top until they give you some more space. Or wrap your calf at the top with some extra cloth when you first mold them.
Most likely, though, they will be fine once baked.
Oh, and use a footbed. As you may have noticed, I like the ALINE footbed, especially in this application. Put the footbed UNDER the liner when you mold them. Just make sure it is in the right place in the shell (all the way back against the heel...tape helps) and to stomp flat down hard a few times once they are on and molding to get the liner to conform nicely to the footbed. Doing this is nice for two reasons: 1). It keeps the footbed on a firm, stable platform (the bootboard) instead of a soft, squishy one (the bottom of the liner) and 2) it is much nicer and warmer against your foot.
The ALINE is (annoyingly) grippy, and so can make sliding into the boot tricky when inside the liner instead of under it. This is a point of contention between the designer and several of us who worked with this product from its initial release, as is putting it under the liner. All I can say is, everyone I know of (including me) who has done this has liked the result...a LOT.
[/bully pulpit]
P.S.- If you are in VT, and fancy a trip to Middlebury, I would be happy to help fit you. No longer work in a shop, but with some creativity can accomplish almost all of the same things in the kitchen....mostly.
I'm having some trouble with my boots. Basically they're giving me way too much back-and-forth freeplay at the ankle, even when tightened all the way up, this is throwing me into the backseat quite a bit.
The problem seems to be that the liner is just too wide, and even when closed all the way, does not encase my lower leg entirely, the only solution I've found is to stuff my sweat pants down the boots, but, unless done "just-right", that can create some painful pressure points.
Any DIY solutions, or is this something I'd have to take to a fitter.
biggC:
shell fit them, and let us know what that is like. (read the first post, and check the 3 basic things, make sure you are not doing any of the 10 no-nos, and answer the 10 other questions)
For the first 3 questions: the boots fit well around my saquatch feet without a footbed.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
I'm not doing any of the 10 Don't Dos.
I got the boots about 5 years ago, but only started to notice the difference after the first two seasons. At the time, I bought the boots because they were the only ones the store had in my size. Some brief searching now shows that they were designed to be wide and "comfortable" in the first place. which is probably why they're way too loose around my calves.
Knowing that they're boots that are designed for a more casual skier than myself, should I invest in fitting them, or just deal with it and save up for new boots instead?
a "casual" skier is just marketing for a wide / soft boot, just as a "race" boot is a narrow stiff boot.
sounds like they are just too wide for you. If the shell is not too big, make some "L" pads around the ankle, or some extra tongue padding to help drive the heel back might help? You might be able to do some of this yourself, but a good bootfitter will have more toys to play with, and more ideas too.
try some yourself, see what happens, and if it doesn't work, just remove what you added, and you are no worse off.
Could your recommend a good boot fitter in the Colorado Front Range? Im tired of losing toe nails haha.
no idea, but epicski has a list of some good fitters. or maybe start a thread here and ask?
Larry in Boulder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolson
Thanks for the info and the offer. I will most likely have these done before I am near Middlebury in a couple weeks. One of my buddies is a podiatrist and I am going to have him make me orthotics in all likelihood.Quote:
Originally Posted by weasel1
I like the idea of wrapping the calf to provide some play.
Thanks again.
I have some Salomon Guns (95 flex) in a 25.5 with foam liners. When I used the original liners I could barely ski in the boot for more than a run cause it was so damn tight. They were ok at times last year, but never felt perfect. I'm on 150 days now and there is just too much room in the toe box. I feel myself crunching my toes when skiing rough terrain. My right boot has been blown out around my little toe, but it still feels like my little toe is sitting on top of the toe next to it - drives my crazy feeling that all day. They also feel too soft for me.
Any recommendations for other boots to try out? I've measured the widest part of my forefoot at around 96mm. I have tried on Full Tilts and it was the most uncomfortable boot I have every put on, so those are out.
any companies plug or semi race boot should be similar to the gun for fit.
nordica pro (jah lov)
salomon X3, ghost, falcon
Technic agent (98mm)
both rossi and lange make 98mm boots now too.
Something to consider that's helped me that I don't hear people talk about too much. For me after I got all the boot shit taken care of and was still in pain I asked myself the question, "WTF is wrong with my feet?" Skiing makes you exert your feet in weird ways that other athletic pursuits don't. Can rollers (roll a soup can or something back and fourth under your feet to stretch tendons), achilles stretches, and walking on the outside of my feet once in a while, and especially before skiing, have stretched and toughened my feet such that I have a lot less pain while skiing now.
I'm considering just getting new boots. I can get a good deal on anything from BD. However the largest size they make seems to be 30.5, my feet are closer to 31.5-32.0, I doubt they'd be able to fit off the bat, but would it be a safe assumption that a bootfitter could grind them out to fit my sasquatch feet?
biggc.
odds are it will fit. You feet might measure 31.5 but will FIT a 30.5 just fine
(I measure 26.5, ski 25 or 24 boots, and mens 8.5 shoe)
try them and see, you want a 5-10mm shell fit.
Anything like the Nordica Hot Rod Pro 125? I tried those on today and they felt pretty sweet. Just looking for other options to try to get a better deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
I tried on the Enforcer which I was told is the exact same fit as the Agent 120. Is this true? Anyway, that boot felt too roomy in the toe box... quite a difference between the two 98mm Nordica boots I tried on.
Any other specific models I should check out? Unfortunately, there are no Ghosts around to try on.
funken: go see what you local stores have to try on. ask for the narrowest thing they have, and see how it fits. best to ask the staff, as they should know what they sell.
Any good DIY tips how to decrease volume in the heel pocket? Due to large volume of my new Mobes I´ve got some movement there I would like get rid of.
is the movement forward and back? side to side? or up and down?
Just had intuitions fitted into my BD customs...
First off these boots are tight. The BD liners were crap. And these boots are tight.
I knew looking at the intuitions that they are way better and thicker all round than the shitty stock BD liners. With a tight fit and my high arch there was no chance I could get my foot in a the liner then into the boot so we baked, padded my toes slid the liner into the boot then crammed my foot in. The fitting is tight but workable I hope.
My fit issue is a high instep and very little space width wise across my toes and the ball of my feet. Having punched the toe boxes there are no further gains to be made there, but one suggestion is to fit my insoles (sole super thin) with metatarsal arch buttons just to adjust my foot in the boot; I have also in the past suffered hot foot and when cycling toe numbness.
Does anyone have any experience with these?
I think it is going to be today's quest...
cut off the toe of the footbed (turn it into a 3/4 length one)
No forward and back movement. A little bit side to side. Mostly and most disturbingly up and down. The feel is like there is no proper heel cup at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion
darkwing: try adding a 3-5mm heel lift, under the footbed. Or some padding, on the tongue of the boot, on the flex point (to help drive the heel back into the heel pocket)
Thanks mntlion... always money on the boot advice.
the vertical space in my boots is fine I'm tight on width... might try another bake as the first one wasn't super hot...
I recently got some intuition liners cooked for me. Boot is unchanged, it fit very well until the liner packed out completely. My custom insole is unchanged and the liner was cooked with the insole. One buckle was moved over to give me additional ratchets to tighten down (top buckle on shin) since I had both of these maxed out but still had some upper leg movement in the boot.
My foot itself feels slightly over-snug in a few points where my boots had been punched out, but it is not impossibly painful. I'm assuming this is because those points only worked because I crushed out the stock liners and I'll manage to hammer out the intuition liner eventually. Despite the tightness in a few spots, my feet can wobble about a bit with the buckles as tight as I can stand them, this doesn't seem to be a big problem though, it appears to be at least partly about me getting used to having liners cooked with toe-caps.
The problem I'm having is that, for good control, I need to seriously clamp down the ankle and shin buckle. Over the course of a few days, this bruises a ring around my calf/lower leg right where the top of the shell rests. This is ok for a few days, as I can just take tons of advil and power through, but over the course of 8 days, my calf swelled and became tender to the point that I couldn't buckle my boots effectively to ski. On the right leg, there's one point of exaggerated tenderness that seems to be under pressure before the rest.
The BOW questions that seemed likely relevant are the ones quoted below, the answers are as follows.
1) Better unbuckled.
5) I seem to go a bit numb throughout the day, but man, the hour or so before I do is fucking brutal.
6) Worse each day it seems.
7) Dramatically worse on harder terrain. On easy terrain I can avoid ever really putting pressure on the front or back of my lower leg and it's not so bad (yesterday, I left my top two buckles unbuckled when limping back to the lodge/car).
8) The power straps seem roughly like the top buckle here. They help control, but exaggerate the "gouging" sensation.
I'm going back to my bootfitter today both for the bruising and because I still have some heel lift. He knows his shit, but is there anything in particular I might want to point him towards?
And Mntlion, this is giving me even more confusion than before w.r.t. shells.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntlion