Why is the industry still using field books for snow data, for the most part?

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08-18-2006, 01:41 PM
Buzzworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Your right, I can't see past the $$$. DO YOU WORK FOR FREE?

No, but I am given the tools to do my job faster and more efficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Why should I work for free or any other avalanche forcaster?? My eyes are VERY wide open and see the reality of the world around us. It doesn't matter to me if the avalanche centers buy your gizmo or not (since I'm no longer with CAIC). Folks are still going to buy my field books. There isn't a single avalanche school that could buy 10-20 of your gizmos... D'oh!!!:eek:

Never said work for free. I am not going to engage the other stuff above. It would do no good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Students will still start out with fieldbooks like mine, before they even get close to your gizmo...:rolleyes2 :wink: :biggrin: Folks will still realize that 21st century hi-tec gizmos are exspensive breakable, take up space in their packs and are heavy....

Breakable, no, not really, have you looked at the Military specs the Archer meets and exceeds? Heavy, no. 17 oz. Space taker, no, 6.5" x 3.5" x 1.7".

This is on our website and I personally did this project:

"Allegro CE Used in Forest Biometrics Classes" (our other keyboarded handheld)

"Students taking Forest Biometry at Michigan State University this spring (2004) have had the opportunity to throw away clumsy paper and pen notebooks and use rugged Allegro field computers for data collection, thanks to a generous educational discount from Juniper Systems Inc., who manufactures the Allegro.

The students have been using the field computers to record a diverse array of tree and forest measurements and create electronic data for direct use in lab analyses. Previously, this required that the students enter data manually from field notebooks into computer back at the office. The Allegro docking station and related software allow for convenient and virtually instantaneous downloading of data to a PC.

Now students come out of the woods with data ready to process, which puts smiles on their faces. The students used pen and paper notebooks for the first half of the semester and the Allegros for the second half of the semester. Students loved using the Allegro, and their only complaint was that they were not "allowed them to use them sooner."

Written by Dr..............., Professor
Michigan State University Alumni Newsletter"

Case study in point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Yes, I agree it has been a good discussion. You'll be selling your gizmo and I'll still be selling field books....:D And the industry will be buying them BOTH....:D

I agree this is very true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

But, when you ask why is the "avalanche-snow" industry still using fieldbooks, I've tried to tell you why. And why they will still be around even when you bring out your new product (see I didn't call it "gizmo"). Your right, the avalanche centers won't be able to afford these units right away. But, will the local ski guide, ski patrol or snownerd? So, don't expect everyone to buy one, and drop it in to their pack......

I expect an uphill road map on this solution. Never said it will be easy, but things are already looking good. Everyone, no, that is not close to reality. But the percentage of users will grow, year by year. Word of mouth will be one key ingredient in the success of said solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

I hope to see you at ISSW. Your on for buying me a beer for everytime you've misspelled my name.............:rolleyes2 :wink: D'OH!!!!:wink: :wink: And I'm Loveland ski patrol/CAIC trained at drinking beer.. Its spelled H-A-L-S-T-E-D........

Hope to be there. Decision has not been made as of yet. And I know a Halstead, so I apologize, it comes out that way. Mine is Ron. Feel free to butcher it. :biggrin:

And I don't know if I have that much money. It sounds as though the two of us could go to dinner at a pub and close it. :biggrin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Cheers,
HALSTED
PS Bingo!!! I hit the 100th posting on this thread.................

52 degrees when I woke up, it is coming!
08-21-2006, 01:26 PM
Avmapper

BEER at ISSW

I think we all need to have some BEERS!!!! at ISSW. Beware of offering to buy Ron, this gang can put them back and lay on the discussions.
08-21-2006, 04:07 PM
Buzzworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avmapper

I think we all need to have some BEERS!!!! at ISSW. Beware of offering to buy Ron, this gang can put them back and lay on the discussions.

I would come home to a divorce it sounds like if I bought. I at least owe Halsted a few.

Halsted, now I understand funding. ;) :biggrin:

Looks like I would be in the right company though. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I am certainly trying to get there. Schedule has not been decided as of yet, though I am working on it with the the higher ups.
08-21-2006, 06:36 PM
Hacksaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

Halsted, now I understand funding. ;) :biggrin:

Sorry to hear that.:confused: :frown:

Have you thought of bring your wife to T-ride??? There is plenty to do other then hanging with the snownerds........:redface:

Halsted
08-22-2006, 01:56 PM
Buzzworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Sorry to hear that.:confused: :frown:

Have you thought of bring your wife to T-ride??? There is plenty to do other then hanging with the snownerds........:redface:

Halsted

She will be teaching a class this semester at USU, so her travel is severely limited. Plus she does hang around enough "snow nerds", aka maggots that I have a feeling she would pass anyway. Unless there was snow there and then she would ski. :D

I am still trying to make it myself. Up to management right now.
08-22-2006, 10:40 PM
Hacksaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzworthy

I would come home to a divorce it sounds like if I bought.

Yea, the ISSW in Penticton, is where my married life went ot hell..... Thank God!

But, remember what Robin Williams said:

"Ah, yes, Divorce, from the Latin word meaning to rip out a man's genitals through his wallet":eek: :eek: ;)
08-23-2006, 01:07 PM
Buzzworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

But, remember what Robin Williams said:

"Ah, yes, Divorce, from the Latin word meaning to rip out a man's genitals through his wallet":eek: :eek: ;)

Thank you very much for the laugh, I needed that!
08-24-2006, 01:18 PM
~mikey b

Hey Buzz and Hacksaw

I think you're both "right" - there are many good ways to collect avalanche pit data. Some have better applications than others.

I'm going to be teaching a Level 1 and Level 2 class with Bill Glude at University of Alaska Southeast starting in November. Bill uses these fieldbooks that he's developed for the classes and Southeast Alaska Avalanche Center observations.

Buzz - any chance of getting ahold of a loaner unit to try out? Level 1 field sessions are in Nov and Dec, and Level 2 are in Jan and early-Feb. It would be a good way to get a bunch of people to use it.
08-24-2006, 03:13 PM
Buzzworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by telemike

Hey Buzz and Hacksaw

I think you're both "right" - there are many good ways to collect avalanche pit data. Some have better applications than others.

I'm going to be teaching a Level 1 and Level 2 class with Bill Glude at University of Alaska Southeast starting in November. Bill uses these fieldbooks that he's developed for the classes and Southeast Alaska Avalanche Center observations.

Buzz - any chance of getting ahold of a loaner unit to try out? Level 1 field sessions are in Nov and Dec, and Level 2 are in Jan and early-Feb. It would be a good way to get a bunch of people to use it.

Let me look into that. I will get back to you.
08-24-2006, 03:16 PM
~mikey b

thanks mang.

FYI - Bill will be at ISSW
08-24-2006, 03:45 PM
Buzzworthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by telemike

thanks mang.

FYI - Bill will be at ISSW

Looking more and more like I and my CEO will be too. Fingers still crossed. Looking at details now with CEO.
08-24-2006, 05:12 PM
Hacksaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by telemike

Hey Buzz and Hacksaw

I think you're both "right" - there are many good ways to collect avalanche pit data. Some have better applications than others.

I'm going to be teaching a Level 1 and Level 2 class with Bill Glude at University of Alaska Southeast starting in November. Bill uses these fieldbooks that he's developed for the classes and Southeast Alaska Avalanche Center observations.

Yea, I have seen Bill's fieldbook. It came out after my fieldbook was published.
08-24-2006, 05:42 PM
~mikey b

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hacksaw

Yea, I have seen Bill's fieldbook. It came out after my fieldbook was published.

In my opinion, it is an improvement over yours. The 2 page pit profile in the SAAC and CAA books works better for me than trying to cram it all in on 1 page on yours. Just a matter of personal preference.........

SAAC fieldbook
http://www.avalanche.org/~seaac/Imag...tesProfile.jpg

Hacksaw fieldbook
http://members.aol.com/bsfbsnow/report_1.jpg
08-24-2006, 05:53 PM
Buzzworthy

I am going home for a nice cold beer. Enough work today!

Edit: "this slope released as I approached it to the south" Yikes!
08-24-2006, 10:07 PM
Hacksaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by telemike

In my opinion, it is an improvement over yours.

True. But, some folks like the simple one page format and flexiblity of user format. And you haven't seen the next edition on my fieldbook. :smile: Sorry, it won't be out this season.:( But, it does mean I can incorperate new changes (i.e., the new danger scale, etc...) into my book. I'm also considering the binder formate that Bill uses... But, his book is a lot bulker then mine. I like being able to put my fieldbook into my jacket pocket and not having a heavy bulky object in my pocket. It also means I can whipout my book and flip it open quickly, when I'm talking with a fellow bc skier or avalanche professional.

Cheers,

Halsted

edit: P.S. And oh, my book is A LOT cheeper.......................
10-05-2006, 12:55 PM
Hacksaw

Buzz? Where are the photos from ISSW?

Halsted
10-05-2006, 04:43 PM
Buzzworthy

Like this one?

http://tetongravity.com/forums/attac...1&d=1160088134
10-05-2006, 04:47 PM
Buzzworthy

Mine is better then yours! Naw, nawnawnaw!

http://tetongravity.com/forums/attac...1&d=1160088302

With mandatory beers of course.
10-05-2006, 04:53 PM
Buzzworthy

BTW,

Doug, tried sending pics, says your email is full???
10-05-2006, 04:55 PM
FrankZappa

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzworthy

Mine is better then yours! Naw, nawnawnaw!

Yep, that's a real nice red X you got there.
10-06-2006, 10:42 AM
Buzzworthy

Comes up fine on my puter.

edit: attached em now if they are not coming up
10-06-2006, 11:03 AM
FrankZappa

That's better.

Where's the peanut butter?

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...2&d=1160153117
Don't know how you missed Halsted, Looks just like I described him.:p
10-06-2006, 02:50 PM
smitchell333

Here's my amateur's $.02 on where snowpack field data can really improve.

I see 2 major problems with the current state of the art:

1) The data is all subjective. Sure there are standard ways folks are taught to gather and measure data (1 finger hard vs pencil hard, reutsh-block, etc, etc.) , but ultimately its all open for interpretation by the gatherer and vary's by their interpretation. What's an easy failure vs moderate failure?

2) Limited Data - because of the cumbersome nature of pit digging and data gathering the range of data available (whether to the individual tourer or professional forecaster is limited by how many pits you can did or how many field reports you can read). The result is that decisions are made on best available data - I'm not digging 3 or 4 pits on my tours and the CAIC forecasters are not able to thoroughly look at dozens or hundreds of pit field data at 6AM before issuing a forecast.

Buzz's tool could, if adapted widely enough, help aleviate #2 by the databasing of field reports.

I think the real revolutionary concept would be that of a more standardized method of gathering snowpack data and databasing it. To get Sci-Fi with the concept - why cant we develop a handheld tool that probes the snowpack with radar or infrared or both or???, adds GPS reading, altitude, aspect, then provides a pit profile that is both standardized and easily databased and accessed by both professionals and users. With such a tool I could take 10-20 snowpack readings in a tour rather than 1 or 2 snowpits. Then I'd have all my localized data readings, along with all those others had databased. All this data could ultimately lead to development of algorithms that could essentially forecast the relative danger for your local readings as well as overall by time and place as supported by readings.

Wild concept, but if it could happen, it would hold promise...
now off to design a hover car.

:smile:
10-06-2006, 04:06 PM
Buzzworthy

Very well done I may say!

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitchell333

Here's my amateur's $.02 on where snowpack field data can really improve.

I see 2 major problems with the current state of the art:

1) The data is all subjective. Sure there are standard ways folks are taught to gather and measure data (1 finger hard vs pencil hard, reutsh-block, etc, etc.) , but ultimately its all open for interpretation by the gatherer and vary's by their interpretation. What's an easy failure vs moderate failure?

A few good papers were presented on this very issue at ISSW. In summary, there are quite a few ways to interpret the data and that is where standardization could play a great role. But what method gets the standarization??? I believe this is one of the real problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitchell333

2) Limited Data - because of the cumbersome nature of pit digging and data gathering the range of data available (whether to the individual tourer or professional forecaster is limited by how many pits you can did or how many field reports you can read). The result is that decisions are made on best available data - I'm not digging 3 or 4 pits on my tours and the CAIC forecasters are not able to thoroughly look at dozens or hundreds of pit field data at 6AM before issuing a forecast.

Buzz's tool could, if adapted widely enough, help aleviate #2 by the databasing of field reports.

This is a concept that some companies have a working database, so I guess it is not really a concept anymore. I and many others agree with having a database. But Hacksaw had a real good comment about this: "Who is to say that the data coming in is any good and reliable, and who's data do you look at first?" Again, the interpretation factor comes into play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitchell333

I think the real revolutionary concept would be that of a more standardized method of gathering snowpack data and databasing it. To get Sci-Fi with the concept - why cant we develop a handheld tool that probes the snowpack with radar or infrared or both or???, adds GPS reading, altitude, aspect, then provides a pit profile that is both standardized and easily databased and accessed by both professionals and users. With such a tool I could take 10-20 snowpack readings in a tour rather than 1 or 2 snowpits. Then I'd have all my localized data readings, along with all those others had databased. All this data could ultimately lead to development of algorithms that could essentially forecast the relative danger for your local readings as well as overall by time and place as supported by readings.

What if I told you I looked at a snow probe that does take some data (I would want to see more than it does currently)? This concept is in material form now as well. Will it be the answer, well, maybe. Maybe not. But we will find out.

"GPS reading, altitude, aspect, then provides a pit profile "

This can all be done by the Archer field PC and Doug Scott's Application.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitchell333

Wild concept, but if it could happen, it would hold promise...now off to design a hover car.

You are way more on target with your post than you realize. But if there is one main thing I learned at ISSW is that all of this data is subject to interpretation, which leads to less accurate data if different methods are used. We are getting there slowly, but at a snail's pace. One day, one day....

So I will work on this and you let me know when the hover car is done so I can get to my mountain faster. :biggrin:
12-04-2006, 04:35 PM
wra

No field book or gizmo was used in the formation of this field report A digicam, confuser, coupla grahics arts programs and a brain. Take a picture or two, go skiing, go home and sit in the easy chair in front of a confuser to put it together.

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