PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

Harsh realities:

The over-willing and ready supply for patrol is demonstrated by all the volunteer ski patrollers willing to work for a pass, a pro form, and some early pow turns.

That includes medics, docs, and nurses.

Major resorts have volunteer components of their patrol like Copper, Loveland, Brighton, Big Sky etc.

It's fucking hard to argue that a pay bump for a 21 year old first year patroller's 4 day a week seasonal job is a good biz decision when there are literally people who will do it for free.

EMT and the simpler OEC are pretty easy vocational classes. I teach them. Highschoolers can and do take them. The texbooks are at a 7th grade reading level. Rookie ski patroller is an entry level seasonal job and pay starts similar to most EMT jobs like ambulance and ER tech which are hard and risky (back injuries, patients assualts) just like patrolling. But ski patrol has glamour, pro forms, powder perks, maybe some bombs, and no night shift.

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Originally Posted by summit

Harsh realities:

The over-willing and ready supply for patrol is demonstrated by all the volunteer ski patrollers willing to work for a pass, a pro form, and some early pow turns.

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Yup - one of my mate's kids is currently living in 4-corners and bumping chairs at BB and volly patrol at BS.

Experienced and specialized patrollers are underpaid, under benefited, and poorly treated because suits don't get the value diffrerence for their company between a good snow safety director or senior forecast vs a 1st or 2nd year putting up rope and hauling yet another twisted knee.

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Originally Posted by summit

Experienced and specialized patrollers are underpaid, under benefited, and poorly treated because suits don't get the value diffrerence for their company between a good snow safety director or senior forecast vs a 1st or 2nd year putting up rope and hauling yet another twisted knee.

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They don’t WANT to get the value difference. Because they really don’t care. That’s labor beneath them and that doesn’t warrant much thought after initial hire.

My understanding is that NSP enrollment has been down, which is a reason why they now allow ETM or OEC training to qualify. That switch, I believe came this summer/fall


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Irony of some of this that I have observed a consensus that former patrollers can make good mtn managers and good general managers. It can be an obvious progression from senior patroller, to head of snow safety to patrol director to mtn manager. They become one of “they,” ie a suit, but not really.


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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

My understanding is that NSP enrollment has been down, which is a reason why they now allow ETM or OEC training to qualify. That switch, I believe came this summer/fall

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I know the woman who NSP hired to, among other educational things, revamp OEC education because the whole OEC process was stagnant. I think she'll make a difference. She struck me as quite bright. Ironically, she has never been a patroller.

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Originally Posted by summit

Harsh realities:

The over-willing and ready supply for patrol is demonstrated by all the volunteer ski patrollers willing to work for a pass, a pro form, and some early pow turns.

That includes medics, docs, and nurses.

Major resorts have volunteer components of their patrol like Copper, Loveland, Brighton, Big Sky etc.

It's fucking hard to argue that a pay bump for a 21 year old first year patroller's 4 day a week seasonal job is a good biz decision when there are literally people who will do it for free.

EMT and the simpler OEC are pretty easy vocational classes. I teach them. Highschoolers can and do take them. The texbooks are at a 7th grade reading level. Rookie ski patroller is an entry level seasonal job and pay starts similar to most EMT jobs like ambulance and ER tech which are hard and risky (back injuries, patients assualts) just like patrolling. But ski patrol has glamour, pro forms, powder perks, maybe some bombs, and no night shift.

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PCMR used to have a great voly patrol, Vail took care of that.

I don’t know what NSP is like these days, but 20 years ago we called it Jollies for the Vollys.

At PCMR we called them Weekenders. At Big Sky they were the Ree-rees as in on Monday the paid staff went around re-doing everything they had fixed on the weekend, it was a bit unfair but seeing as how they tried to have their own patrol, like with their own director who did not answer to the paid director or even the Big Sky management, fuck em was the consensus.

So things were "adjusted" we left the NSP and the volunteer staff got to be pretty damn good, ironically enough by hiring/compensating a core group of paid volunteers to handle the entire volunteer program.

I have also heard, the Red coat social club.

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

My understanding is that NSP enrollment has been down, which is a reason why they now allow ETM or OEC training to qualify. That switch, I believe came this summer/fall


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i think you got that backwards. OEC is official NSP shit. that's all they have accepted in the past as far as i know. wfr and others like it are not considered as "or equal"

[ATTACH]5[emoji[emoji642]4[emoji642]][emoji[emoji642]43][emoji[emoji642]45]1[emoji642][/ATTACH]

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Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

One of the best things about TGR - we have a lot of knowledge about a lot of subjects

One of the worst things about TGR - despite said knowledge, lot of people just spew about shit that they have no idea about

I'm not a patroller - many of my friends are and have 10+ years of experience is the more senior/critical roles so here's what I see.

Health Insurance - many ski area employees highly value the benefits. It's a standard ski town set up where one person will be a contractor/realtor/or other generally high paid but inconsistent worker with no benefits. The other will work for a ski area for generally good family benefits.

Range of Skill Sets on Patrol - for sure there is a big difference between the Jr. (1 to 3 year) experience rank and file 'troller that basically does the ranching on skis and minor medical and the Sr. patrollers that may be supervisors, snow safety, lift evac., med. trainers., EMTs and so on. But you don't get the Sr.s without taking care of the Jr.s.

It is a physically dangerous job much of which can't be mitigated - Winter Park is open something like 150 days a year. That's a lot of skiing. And you are trying to stay healthy doing it. Avalanches, collisions, frostbite, ACLs and so on.

The vibe of the ski area staff is critical to the good times. Wanker has great lifties and patrol. It really helps keep the stoke up and thats what I'm there for.

Living Wage Jobs - I know close to nothing about unions but I do know about paying the bills. It is not unique to ski patrollers or mountain towns. So you can go on about supply and demand in the labor market and opine on the value to society all you want. But we need to move the conversation to many jobs need to pay more.

I know you bitches and your kids are better than average, so you are all pulling down six figures plotting the purchase for your next Euro Status Wagon. But be real. Stop with the performative compassion and realize that income (wealth?) disparity creates this giant wedge in society that many don't want to talk about. Its systemic. People need to make more money. Its part of the societal contract. Work your 40. Pay rent. Make a car payment. Groceries. Eat out once every couple of weeks. Take one decent vacation a year.

But no body wants to give up shit. The basic bitch middle class think that are the smartest fucker around expecting others to solve their faux problems.

Think about it. You are fucking skiing. On a Thursday. Working "Remote". And you want to chime in about wages for the service industry that are cupping your ball on the daily? Fuck...right...off. Or at least own it.

So yeah, $75k a year. What would happen? Ohh, the asset bubble might leak some air. Who cares.

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Just figured this needed another look. Maybe if patrol around the country said fuck you to the people who pay 200$+ lift tickets and expect them to work for nothing had nowhere to ski for their "holiday" they might change their tune...



Nevermind it won't change. Hats off to the guys busting their ass at the Crack of dawn and risking their lives tossing charges just so we can chase that powder dream.

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Originally Posted by l7172659

Just figured this needed another look. Maybe if patrol around the country said fuck you to the people who pay 200$+ lift tickets and expect them to work for nothing had nowhere to ski for their "holiday" they might change their tune...



Nevermind it won't change. Hats off to the guys busting their ass at the Crack of dawn and risking their lives tossing charges just so we can chase that powder dream.

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I am not sure where the author gets the idea the skiing public 'expects patrol to work for nothing' - I certainly don't see that in the pages of this thread ;
I see support for patrollers - some of which I believe is hard to defend the the reasoning ( 70G for 700/800 hours, for example ; and the fact(?) that Park City had 3000 applicants for 300 Patrol jobs ) and claims about Work schedules based on a "bet" .

finally for today, I want to offer a question about the use of 'hand charges' to mitigate avalanche danger -
it is my understanding that new(?) technology is available that may be safer, and ( other valuable advantages. )
Maybe it's time for Snow Safety to again be a seperate department from the "ski patrol" that is responsible for the injured or ill patient(s).

Good luck to the patrollers --

skiJ

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finally for today, I want to offer a question about the use of 'hand charges' to mitigate avalanche danger -
it is my understanding that new(?) technology is available that may be safer, and ( other valuable advantages. )

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That depends. A lot.

Yes there are remote installations like from Wyssen https://www.wyssenavalanche.com/en/ or Obellx https://mnd.com/en/solution/mnd-safe...system-obellx/
but they are $$$ and more meant to replace military artillery instead of hand charges.

There have been experiments with alternate systems to cap and fuse detonation systems and there are other things available such as Avalaunchers and in house built explosives trams.

But ultimately and in the end and after all the explosives testing, someone needs to ski out onto the slopes to evaluate them before giving them over to the public.

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Maybe it's time for Snow Safety to again be a seperate department from the "ski patrol" that is responsible for the injured or ill patient(s).

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I was not aware that the two had been melded together. When I was a SS Dir. my primary focus was on snow but I was also an EMT and I ran wrecks along with everyone else..

I think they’ll shit their pants when they didn’t offer Jake a really good job. To me that dude could have brought PCMR ski patrol to an entirely different level.. Just putting this out there.Attachment 507946

Thanks for the insight, Bunion -
"Avalauncher" is the term I am remembering, and though I know nothing about it, it seems what I read was in reference to it potentially replacing the military artillery that has been used for decades...

My thought is If in the interest of Safety, there isn't 'a better way' than the use of hand charges
( yes, the initial investment is significant, but in an industry that is now spending even tens of millions for lifts, perhaps an investment in snow safety has merit. ).

Your comment about the slope still needing to be assessed before opening the terrain to the public is well-made and well-taken.

regarding snow safety and ski patrol, there was a time in my life when snow safety was the domain of the ( crusty, old) Pro Patrol, and I have watched through my time in ski patrol as that distinction has worn away ( I wore Rust-and-Navy for a long, long time after it was 'okay' for any member to wear Red ).
I don't know the details, but I greatly Respect that you were able to build a career on patrolling.

Again, Thank you for your insight -
I remember driving through Park City in 1986, and thinking it was a Cool, old, mountain(,) mining town.

Thank you.

skiJ

I was living in PC in 1986 and it was at that time the best place I had ever lived.

You are welcome.

^^ Thank you preppy boomers and trustafarians for wanting to cash in

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

At PCMR we called them Weekenders. At Big Sky they were the Ree-rees as in on Monday the paid staff went around re-doing everything they had fixed on the weekend, it was a bit unfair but seeing as how they tried to have their own patrol, like with their own director who did not answer to the paid director or even the Big Sky management, fuck em was the consensus.

So things were "adjusted" we left the NSP and the volunteer staff got to be pretty damn good, ironically enough by hiring/compensating a core group of paid volunteers to handle the entire volunteer program.

I have also heard, the Red coat social club.

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Yeah, around here the NSP's are the joke of the pro pattollers. They aren't allowed to do much except adjust pads and move rope lines. They definitely do not do avi routes.

I had a NSP chase me down and tell me he was going to pull my pass for skiing through the parking lot on a pow day. He was getting into his BMW. I laughed at him and told him that I was actually employed by the resort and to kindly fuck off.

I have no problem with volunteer patrollers, but the fact that 99% of the public cannot differentiate the pro's from the NSP's detracts from the value of the pros.

I'm in the "patrollers are seasonal employees" corner, but I think they should get decent wages and have an option to get a Healthcare option to buy into during the summer. I believe Alterra does have this.

Our local patrollers don't do too badly with mandatory OT and a long season (Nov-Jun). Second and third year guys make mid $40's/hr if I recall correctly. Still hard to live on that around here.

Let me add that we use Gazex for mitigation, but hundreds of hand charges are still thrown. Guys that have been around the mountain for years know the routes better than newbs. That's just a fact.

Also, Park City may be the exception. Around here there are patrol jobs available and they're actively looking for qualified applicants.

Huh, I forgot all about the existence of volunteer patrol, that's never been a thing here. Still, there are plenty of people trying to get a patrol job here, I heard there were about 50 applicants and they took around 5 this year- all to make $20.80/hr with EMT as a minimum. That's a whole $.80 more than a lift op, woohoo. Back in the 90's people paid $200 or so for "patrol tryouts", and they'd take maybe 1 person a year. I wonder what they did with all that money, ha. Back then I ran the fondue dinners mid-mountain and I remember one long time patroller saying she was making $35/hr on overtime just to sit and eat fondue with the guests (and be ready to do the Heimlich or provide a C ride if someone couldn't ski down at the end of the meal). That was a great gig for myself and the patrollers..

So yeah, despite not paying any more than running a cash register at the grocery store, and having what I would consider a somewhat high bar of entry (EMT), people seem to be willing to work for that. Skiing powder and being at a resort that has to be near the top for throwing bombs has its perks I guess. Speaking of which, I wonder what area is #1 in bombs thrown?

All of that said, patrol is underpaid for what they do, even if there are plenty of people willing to do the work.

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Speaking of which, I wonder what area is #1 in bombs thrown?

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That would be Palisades (Squaw/Alpine).

Via pcskipatrolunion on IG, vail is bringing in Scabs from other resorts to be at the ready and some have no medical certs


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Air bursts are my favorite.
It is cool making a slide. But there’s nothing like the bright flash and then the face wash.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

That would be Palisades (Squaw/Alpine).

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Highlands or Silverton, at least for CO...