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Not all of us are lucky enough to be able to ski all the time. Personally, I miss 5-8 weeks a year during the season due to my back/spinal condition. Working out more strategically and efficiently has brought that number down. Working to eliminate the down time entirely. Appreciate this thread.
Didn't read the whole thing, so sorry if repeating, but: squats are the only weightroom leg workout you ever really need (yeah, know that has been said a bunch). Lunges are worthwhile as well, for sure. BUT, if you have a bad back, like me (exploded disc some years ago - mostly fine these days, but squats w/ big weight are contraindicated), just do leg press instead (you will miss getting the lower back workout of squats, but there are other ways to do that). Be sure and do your reps slowly (especially the return).
Biking (like you mean it!) and running are also great ski conditioning, as are explosive jumps (squat position with no weight, jump onto a bench etc, jump off, repeat until you don't make it and wipe out :biggrin: )
Leg extensions: yes, mostly worthless. Not to mention: really unpleasant, IMO.
This thread has gone full on EpicSki, PugSki, or CrossFit bro. Not sure which.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
Disclaimer: great thread and I’m reading all of it
i'm not allowed to do them after knee replacement but i did them for many years because they were a traditional leg exercise. from everything i heard during the decision-making process for surgery i doubt i'd do them if i could do it over.
I lol'd. Dantheman set me straight on that. It was something that had been puzzling me for a while -- the idea that one can move through the same ROM but have a harder eccentric contraction makes a ton of sense now, but I hadn't thought of it that way before.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefortrees
Part of a big girl snowboard workout:
https://youtu.be/fg37f_X0VTE
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WowQuote:
Originally Posted by charles martel
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I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
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Those one-footed box jump to pistols were pretty boss.
There is some badass stuff in that workout. I think she may also have a serious case of talent. I'm going to try that pistol jump move just to remind myself of what I'm not. I should probably where a helmet.Quote:
Originally Posted by charles martel
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That chick is fucking rad.
I’ll disagree with many posters here. While squats and lunges may be more effective, extensions isolate and work the quad. Anyone with patellar tracking issues will use this important exercise and realize its benefits.
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why is that important?Quote:
Originally Posted by SUPERIOR
I have patella tracking issues. Leg extensions and other open kinetic chain exercises make my knee feel worse. AFAICT, working on quad, especially VMO, strength is the old-skool fix for PFS and patellar tendinitis. New theory is that posterior chain (hips, glutes, and hamstring) strength is paramount, along with good mobility in the hips and calfs. Of course, quad strength is important but so many people are already quad dominant, it’s rarely the limiting factor. But I’m always trying to learn, hence my question above.Quote:
Anyone with patellar tracking issues will use this important exercise and realize its benefits.
Struggled for 2 years with PFS and the docs at Boise State put me on a program to strengthen the VMO, hips, ass, and it was a lifesaver.
Some people have bad issues with cartilage degeneration behind the knee, and I’d wager that extensions aggravate that particular complaint.
Extensions worked really well for me. Full rehab took 4-5 months.
It allows you to overload it without hitting other muscles or joints. Say you have an athlete who’s back or hip strength limits their ability to get a full overload of the quad in a squat (pick your variety). This could be a streng issue, an existing injury issue, or a mobility issue. Doesn’t really matter, because unless they are a competitive power lifter, weightlifter, or cross fitter, they don’t have to squat, ever. Anyway, when they load up a bar and squat, they won’t be able to get effective quad growth or development. Now, instead of just going in and spending months just training their butt and back before they can get good leg growth, you could have them train leg extensions prior to squatting. Now, not only will you be able to get effective production out of the first exercise, the quads will be prefatigued going into the squats, and will get some development.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
Say someone can do a a full squat and receive good leg development from it, but their sport requires much more quad strength and size then glute or back strength (skiing for example). You can now follow up the squats, and other more total body exercises with leg extensions. This achieves the overload without placing unnecessary risk on a fatigued hip or back.
Can you achieve this with a leg press?Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierD
I have arthritis under the patella and leg extensions hurt, unless i lift with both legs, then do leg extensions with one leg only, but not more than 30 degrees of range, from fully extended.
They do seem to work the vmo, but i wonder why bother, since the leg press can be done with really heavy weights and the work most leg muscles.
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As with any exercise, I’d only perform what you can do safely. Plenty of ways to train quad strength. If leg presses provide you with ample stimulation, keep doing them.
You're not wrong in theory, and it might make sense for some people -- in fact, I used to think that way and it was reflected in my training. But my personal opinion now is that if an individual is lacking posterior chain strength to the point where he/she can't get sufficient overload of the quad in a single-leg or double-leg, so-called "functional" movement (e.g., a squat, lunge, step up, pistol, etc) without isolation exercises, then he/she *should* absolutely spend "months just training their butt and back" i.e., doing those movements until the posterior chain is no longer the limiting factor. It's becoming more and more known in the literature that being excessively quad dominant with a weak posterior chain increases the risk of injury to the hips, back, and knees.Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierD
And when a muscle is strong/dominant, it tends to work more. If your quads are your strongest leg muscle, your body will adjust to use them more. Even if your quads are what get the most sore, that doesn't necessarily indicate that you need more quad strength for skiing, running, bootpacking, etc -- instead you might need to reduce the load on the quads by strengthening the posterior chain and ingraining a new neuromuscular movement pattern. As always, YMMV.
I’d argue back skiing requires a lot. Ore out of your quads then glutes or back. Plenty of folks who are very capable squatters find themselves with very sore quads after skiing. They have failed to train their quad muscles adiquatly for the sport. While yes, doing more squats could help them prepare, it also requires much more recovery than just doing quad specific training. By focusing on just their quads they are meeting all of their training requirements, while also enabling more training and faster progress.
In my case, very few people would argue I don’t have adiquate back and hip strength, or under developed quads. At the same time I have never had sore hips or back after skiing. I have had sore quads, and had my quads literally fail on me while skiing early season pow days. This was at the same time I could squat north of 500lb, and could do sets of 20 300lb front squats. My quads were insufficently trained despite being a much more accomplished lifter than many on this forum will ever be. Squatting more was not going to be an efficient way to train my legs for skiing, perhaps massive quantities of leg extensions would have been a more effictive and efficient training strategy. It also would have left more room for training endurance running, which I had to sacrifice to get to a 500lb squat.
I enjoy hearing a different perspective, especially from those experienced in lifting. It's just good to keep in mind that exercise can be very individualized. I've felt the way you mention before myself (re quads and skiing) when I was back squatting a lot. My modified approach was to add more front squats, banded squads, and drop snatch -- which definitely made my quads more sore. Then the pendulum swung back and my knees started to be annoyed more often. Maybe I'm just fragile.
Could it be technique?Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierD
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But why leg extensions?Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierD
I've been in a similar boat. When I was wrestling and fitter than I ever care to be again I was training hard enough to sweat out 8-10lbs of water weight over a 2 hour practice 5 days a week. I could squat well over 2 x bodyweight. And I was spending hours a week in a deep crouch. The only time I felt very sore was when I went skiing. In fact, I got more sore back then, I think because I was strong enough to ski in ways my body wasn't ready for.
Wrestling and lifting didn't have me repeatedly relying on my quads for rapid deceleration. That's what leg blasters do. Or what that Johnny Mosely dry land mogul skiing vid shows. I have a hard time imagining leg extensions achieving the same thing. I also suspect that the benefits of a 500 lb squat shouldn't be discounted because of some early season soreness. I reckon a lot of folks, including me, would be better skiers if they were as strong (although for recreational skiing a 500 lb squat almost certainly represent a diminishing returns scenario).
If leg extensions have worked for you I'd love to hear what sort of protocol you used. I recall Herman Maier using very long low intensities on an exercise bike during his big recovery. That didn't make sense to me either, but I don't doubt he was being well advised.
skiing is no different than any other athletically demanding sport. professional athletes in high intensity sports (hockey, football, ski racing come to mind) don't get by relying on shear strength, it's power lifting coupled with more aerobic routines like the workout video earlier. it's hard to find the time to do both for peasants like us
No, I’ve skied with him and he skis well and doesn’t muscle through it too much. Always room for improvement, but I don’t think that’s really the problem in his case. I think when you want to charge hard, you just have to be really strong. Somewhere between 1000# squat and 2 hr marathon strong. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301