12/26 Fatality on Pucker Face, just beyond the JHMR ropes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio

But this incident changed my opinion on airbags.

We shouldn't have been there, no. But we ended up there, and the next day Oceanman and I sat down with Mike's parents and talked about their son's last day in this world, and whether or not we thought an airbag might have saved his life. The information we got from the doctor on the scene and the initial coroner's finding suggests that an airbag would have greatly increased the likelihood of survival in this specific situation.

It's a difficult situation to reconcile. You never want to pay for your mistakes when the price is ultimate. But you also don't realize just how easy it is to make those mistakes, until that day that your luck runs out and you are staring at a 200' wide cloud of snow that just carried your buddy off the face of the planet.

---

I felt the same way about air bags for while now, but I think about all the times I know Ive been in harms way due to group dynamics and only by sheer luck nobody got caught or killed. Ive even said out loud in one particular situation that this will be the determining factor when they go back and do the accident report. We can all think "what were they thinking!" whenever accidents happen, but its impossible to explain the chain of events and how quickly they unravel until youve been there. The human decision making factor is by far the most dangerous part of backcountry travel. Yes, its much easier to not ever put yourself in the line of fire, but we are all human and as back country skiers, make decisions with high consequences for that reason I will be adding an air bag to my kit.

^^^^^^^^so the key is to try to never put yerself in similar less than ideal situations that you mention where someone coulda got caught or killed. and carry an airbag.

rog

seems to be what powder wrote.
b

Thanks oceanman and schralph for sharing your perspective. Vibes to those affected. It is easy for me to just say no to decisions that consequential now, 20 yrs ago not so much...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icelanticskier

^^^^^^^^so the key is to try to never put yerself in similar less than ideal situations that you mention where someone coulda got caught or killed. and carry an airbag.

rog

---

I'm not saying there's a key to anything. Im saying we are all human and susceptible to thinking nothing is gonna happen because
we've done the same dangerous thing hundreds of times with no consequence only to have shit luck that one time and get smoked. Kind of like not wearing a helmet your entire life and convincing yourself that you are immune to head injury, only to go out one day and crack your noggin on a rock. Why not just play it safe and wear the helmet or carry the air bag and pray you never need to ever use either? I know you're from NH and all, but smarten the fuck up, dude. 😛

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by powder11

I know you're from NH and all, but smarten the fuck up, dude. ��

---

nice.

rog

Schralph, Oceanman, sorry for your loss.

Schalph is one of the more analytical, serious, and careful people I know. Given his character, he's probably being too hard on himself. It's a shitty deal, asking the what-ifs. I believe that in the moment, he performed as best he could. I don't know the others but based on Shralph's character and those he travels with, the same applies. It's messed up that the decisions weren't good enough, but you guys made the BEST judgments in the circumstances you had, and you have to accept that.

What-ifs and second guesses are only useful if they can help a future group. You must not use them to beat yourselves up. Hope that helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by powder11

I'm not saying there's a key to anything. Im saying we are all human and susceptible to thinking nothing is gonna happen because
we've done the same dangerous thing hundreds of times with no consequence only to have shit luck that one time and get smoked. Kind of like not wearing a helmet your entire life and convincing yourself that you are immune to head injury, only to go out one day and crack your noggin on a rock. Why not just play it safe and wear the helmet or carry the air bag and pray you never need to ever use either?

---

we are all human and make mistakes, but you made it sound like maybe instead of trying to make behavior changes and or dialing it back some because of past near misses that you'd just add an airbag. just in case. am I wrong in my assumption?

rog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by powder11

I know you're from NH and all, but smarten the fuck up, dude. ��

---

i know you think people from the east coast dont have to worry about avalanches, but if you could just go fuck yourself really quick, that would be greaat. mmkay?

why not carry those things and pray you dont have to use them you say? cus praying you stay safe would be about as effective as writing a letter to the DEA and telling them to end the drug war.

Knock off the thread-cunt. Jeez.

[QUOTE=bendtheski;4151215]I wouldn't have divined that from anything powder11 or schralph posted. Sounds more like you taking the opportunity to espouse your position on helmets and airbags, which has already been well documented.
QUOTE]

X2. Rog, your view doesn't seem to account for the concept of learning curve, which is really problematic when a mistake has severe consequence. If you, Rog, are expert enough so that risk management alone works for you, then good for you. You are ahead of the curve. Others, however, despite their best efforts and dilligence, may make a mistake along their path to enlightenment. Its called inexperience and its a rather common feature of the human condition, IMHO. Wisdom comes from experience. Be a real shame if they didn't live long enough to learn from their mistakes. I don't see both digging a pit AND wearing a bag and beeper to be self contradictory. Sure, you have a point regarding someone who thinks gear alone is a substitute for avy protocols, but who is espousing that? All Powder 11 has acknowledged is that people make mistakes and nature is a chaotic system with many variables that are difficult to detect and predict. Add those two facts together and airbags kinda makes sense for many and certainly don't warrant scorn.


Anyhow, current forecasts for the Tetons predict another 1 to 3 feet of snow lashed by high winds peaking at 60mph@9000ft this weekend. Those mountains won't be getting any safer.

Avi forecasting is an inexact science. Period

The more back-up safety features the better.

We will all continue to make mistakes in the bc and hopefully not pay the ultimate price.

[QUOTE=neckdeep;4151263]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bendtheski

I wouldn't have divined that from anything powder11 or schralph posted. Sounds more like you taking the opportunity to espouse your position on helmets and airbags, which has already been well documented.
QUOTE]

X2. Rog, your view doesn't seem to account for the concept of learning curve, which is really problematic when a mistake has severe consequence. If you, Rog, are expert enough so that risk management alone works for you, then good for you. You are ahead of the curve. Others, however, despite their best efforts and dilligence, may make a mistake along their path to enlightenment. Its called inexperience and its a rather common feature of the human condition, IMHO. Wisdom comes from experience. Be a real shame if they didn't live long enough to learn from their mistakes. I don't see both digging a pit AND wearing a bag and beeper to be self contradictory. Sure, you have a point regarding someone who thinks gear alone is a substitute for avy protocols, but who is espousing that? All Powder 11 has acknowledged is that people make mistakes and nature is a chaotic system with many variables that are difficult to detect and predict. Add those two facts together and airbags kinda makes sense for many and certainly don't warrant scorn.


Anyhow, current forecasts for the Tetons predict another 1 to 3 feet of snow lashed by high winds peaking at 60mph@9000ft this weekend. Those mountains won't be getting any safer.

---

Listen, when i hear multiple folks that have recently gone through an incident in an area where they agree wasn't a good place to be on that day then say that their view has changed regarding airbag validity, it is concerning as it makes it sound that they are justifying that where they were may have been ok had they had airbags. And that is cause for questioning in a forum where folks are here to listen and learn. Having been caught in a big slide myself certainly didnt make me wanna run out and buy an airbag, it woke me the fuck up and told me to stay off fresh windloaded slopes on a considerable day. So now i stay off em.

Not scorning airbags at all. Just questioning thinking processes/intentions.

Rog

Rog, because you were in the Whites. Most avi deaths are from trauma, not asphyxiation. Out West could have been a much different story and an airbag would have been tremendously helpful.

You're trying to make a point that nobody is arguing about.

Airbags, avalungs, beacons, and every other possible precaution is a GOOD thing. But, obviously it does counter the basic rules in evaluating avi probability. You start there and when you get it wrong (and you will…it may or may not release) you have some backup to help save your ass.

I certainly have made questionable decisions and thankfully I got away with them. Lucky. ...especially when that one hit my house.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by strawjack

Rog, because you were in the Whites. Most avi deaths are from trauma, not asphyxiation. Out West could have been a much different story and an airbag would have been tremendously helpful.

---

I'm well aware of both points^^^^^^^

Quote:

---

You're trying to make a point that nobody is arguing about.

---

Just trying to help. Look at you on the avy forum!:yourock::smile:

Rog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icelanticskier

Just trying to help. Look at you on the avy forum!:yourock::smile:

Rog

---

I don't know shit. Just here to learn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icelanticskier

it is concerning as it makes it sound that they are justifying that where they were may have been ok had they had airbags

---

You might have seen that in other places, but no one in this thread ever said that.

I've never deployed my airbag in any of my cars. What this incident told me is that, even though I've learned not to drive like a jackass and told myself not to drive like a jackass and even studied the incidents of others who were allegedly driving like jackasses, one day I will still end up getting blindsided, or, driving like a jackass. On that day I will be glad to have that last line of defense which is an airbag.

The incident changed my thought on airbags because it woke me up to the possibility of failure.

I tried reasoning with Rog about ABS packs in the other avi thread and trust me it doesn't work :wink:
I completely agree with the airbag in your car analogy. Also have never used mine and hope to never have to
just go get one yourself but don't let it give you any false sense of security.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio

You might have seen that in other places, but no one in this thread ever said that.

I've never deployed my airbag in any of my cars. What this incident told me is that, even though I've learned not to drive like a jackass and told myself not to drive like a jackass and even studied the incidents of others who were allegedly driving like jackasses, one day I will still end up getting blindsided, or, driving like a jackass. On that day I will be glad to have that last line of defense which is an airbag.

The incident changed my thought on airbags because it woke me up to the possibility of failure.

---

fair enough.

rog

While people are still following this thread and I still have my pulpit, I'd like to take the discussion back to the guy who can't speak here for himself. I know that Slide Zone is typically more for analysis than solace, but devoting words is the least I can do for the man who saved my life and made all of us smile every time we were with him.

I first met Mike outside the Palace of Fine Arts Theater in San Francisco a number of years before. I had driven up to the Theater’s parking lot with a cooler full of beer, food and equipment to set up a tailgate party to celebrate the local premiere of TGR's annual film. I was shocked to see a car already there, with embers flying off of coals in a grill propped next to the car. I first organized a “San Francisco TGR Tailgate” in 2007 with another maggot and the event grew into an annual tradition. I was always one of the first people there, getting ready to share in the excitement of the change in season and the excitement of catching up with other snow addicts before the movie. But that one day someone had beaten me there, and I did not recognize their car. I had to know the person who was just as excited about skiing as me that they would tailgate a movie, of all things. Standing next to the grill with a coy smile was our man Mike.

Mike made everyone laugh, and always shared what he had. We weren’t close, but over the years at our annual tailgates I felt we shared a bond and common disposition. At the 2013 TGR Tailgate in November, I had a conversation with Mike about his plans to move to Jackson for the season. He had saved up quite a bit of money working in the tech industry so that he could quit and travel around the world, and then ski bum for a while. Funny thing, because I myself was already in the process of saving enough money, from my tech industry job, to live freely for at least a year, with the idea of ski bumming as a central part of the dream. Mike was incredibly smart – he scored perfectly on his SAT exams and scored 5 out of 5 on thirteen AP exams, the equivalent of an A on thirteen college finals, while in high school. He was talented, capable, and while his industry work wasn’t fulfilling his emotional needs, he was good at what he did and he used that ability to enable his dreams. I’m not as talented and driven as Mike, but we were on very similar paths in life. I was excited to get out to Jackson and ski with Mike over the Christmas holiday – he even offered to put me up on his couch. I was excited to get to know him better.

On the morning of the 26th I met up with Mike at the Tram station, shortly after he had said goodbye to his parents as they drove back home to California. They were in town for Christmas and had just met the other members of our ski group the night before at a Christmas party. Everyone was in good spirits.

Mike and I talked about the snow conditions, and with excitement about skiing in general. When we scanned our passes into the tram loading area, Mike talked about how he was trying to get a hundred days scanned on his pass. He explained to me that the resort offers a special ski day after the mountain has closed to the public, only to employees and people who have skied a hundred days on their pass.

“That’s it?” I asked. “All you get for skiing a hundred days is – another day of skiing?” But Mike was excited about it, eager. He kept a spreadsheet logging every single day that he was on the mountain. He loved skiing so much that a hundred and one days would be even better than a hundred, especially if it was an earned, exclusive privilege. It’s difficult to hold that this was my last real conversation with him in this world, but I must not forget it. I must not forget his passion. And I want for his death to mean something; I want to believe in the silver linings.

Let us celebrate Mike Kazanjy, let us pray and think about his family and friends, let us pray that others who ski and snowboard in backcountry terrain make good decisions and get home safe. Let us remember the one thing that Mike shared with all of us – the passion to "live to ski." Finally, if you see someone at the Jackson Hole tram dock wearing a pink AVALON7 belt on the outside of their jacket, you should know that person is shredding with Kazanj and getting him another day on the hill – getting him toward his 100 tick marks. I hope that someone wearing his belt gets to lay down first tracks on the mountain on that the final day of the 2014 resort season.

Thank you Alex! You are an amazing friend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SchralphMacchio

Mike asked the group, right before he dropped in: "Are you comfortable with this?"

---

Thanks to both of you for the great write-up and tribute.

Whether intuition is a sixth sense, or an accumulation of knowledge we should all ask our partners,

"Are you comfortable with this?"

and hope we are traveling with good enough folks to accept no as a final answer and find another route.

Well done schralph and OM, thank you both for your candor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dewam

we should all ask our partners, "Are you comfortable with this?", and hope we are traveling with good enough folks to accept no as a final answer and find another route.

---

Thats a very good practice, and one I always try to use if we're skiing a line with some intended acceptable level of risk. I make it a point of looking at each person in my group, and asking the person, individually, if they're comfortable with the decision and risk. If you ask the group collectively, you tend to run into cases where people may not speak up. Asking them individually helps break that group mentality, and you might just end up getting a 'no' when you wouldn't have otherwise.

I also will often try to just turn to individuals and ask each one, what they think about the conditions, what we've seen and heard, just to try and eek out additional observations that I may have missed. Helps with the expert halo thing. I've notcied women in the group usually have something useful to add when approached individually.

I'm sure this technique can be used in other areas to help break down other group heuristic traps as well.

Thanks Oceanman and Schralp for your write-ups. I doubt I would have said No Go in your shoes.