WHITEFISH AVALANCHE!! PAGING FLATHEAD MAGS!

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

Fuck. They should post signs that warn of $1000 fines and a day in jail for leaving the area through gated areas without the requisite gear. This is fucking STUPID.

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I couldnt disagree more!! Nannyism is not the answer. Its not Governments job or the Ski area for that matter to protect people from their own stupidity!!

That line of thinking only leads to gate closures, and the loss of access for everyone.

I believe that one very important freedom that we enjoy is the freedom to risk our lives, and take chances. Saying that we need to limit access or jail/fine people for not having avy gear is similar to knee-jerk gun control laws every time some nut-job shoots up a school or a shopping mall.

In the end its tragic, and my thoughts go out to the friends and family of those lost. Some people might learn from this and others wont. Thats life, and human nature... more laws/fines/restrictions/ect certainly wont change that.

:nonono2:

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Originally Posted by Ermine

You know...we know, it's just a matter of time before the next incident out that gate. Next time it could be 2->4->10 that could get caught. I don't have any good suggestions/solutions other than one of those gate thingies that checks to see if you're beeping before the gate opens...that costs $ and then could throw the onus onto The Canyons in court...I don't know? It's easily circumvented as well.

Sorry for the hijack, just checking this thread for more info from Big Mtn. Still sounds like there could be more buried out there?

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Agreed, the "maxnier avy" in '05 only ended up killing on guy but the first reports on the news were "up to 15 trapped in avy" ...we just dodged a bullet on that one.
(I'm a total asshole 2 people on the ridge with no gear or sno-sense... yesterday a kid asked me if he dropped down bear trap into BCC of dutches if he could ride back 2 the resort!!

sorry about the hijack, just commenting on above thread:rolleyes:

Ive been 2 the big moutian and whitefish-kallispelle, almost moved there.

its (still) small town and everyone knows each other there. incidents like this must hit extra hard...postive vibes 2 all friend,fam, and rescue workers.

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Originally Posted by kentheskier

I couldnt disagree more!! Nannyism is not the answer. Its not Governments job or the Ski area for that matter to protect people from their own stupidity!!

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I could care less if you drink and drive and smash yourself into a tree, but when you cross that center line it's no longer just about you.

The way I see it, it's less about protecting people from their own stupidity and more about protecting ME from their stupidity. If I'm OB and beaping and you knock a slide down on me you better damn well be beaping as well.

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Originally Posted by Mofro261

I could care less if you drink and drive and smash yourself into a tree, but when you cross that center line it's no longer just about you.

The way I see it, it's less about protecting people from their own stupidity and more about protecting ME from their stupidity. If I'm OB and beaping and you knock a slide down on me you better damn well be beaping as well.

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How about you protect yourself from others stupidity?!?!

We all know how many unprepared/uneducated idiots frequent dangerous side country lines... The solution is simple, venture into BC areas that are free from crowds and dangerous idiots.

Is just another risk that must be considered and should factor into your line selection process. Depending on others/govt/ski areas/ect to protect you from the irrational actions of others is fool hardy.

BTW, I am always beeping in the Back Country!

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Originally Posted by kentheskier

How about protect yourself from others stupidity?!?!

We all know how many unprepared/uneducated idiots frequent dangerous side country lines... The solution is simple, venture into BC areas that are free from crowds and dangerous idiots.

Is just another risk that must be considered and should factor into your line selection process. Depending on others/govt/ski areas/ect to protect you from the irrational actions of others is fool hardy.

BTW, I am always beeping in the Back Country!

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Whoa man, my use of "you" wasn't directed at you.

However, the rest of your statements are in direct contradiction to the topic at hand- Backcountry access gates from ski areas which by their very nature have crowds and idiots. I personally use these gates as well as BC ventures away from the crowds.

You say you ski with a beacon, so I assume you are skiing with a shovel and probe as well yet these have no use to you personally if you are the one buried. Therefore even with full gear you are still at the mercy of your partners,others and their skill level to dig you out. This is all regardless of your knowledge base/terrain selection etc.

I would hardly consider it an impingement on my rights to require proper avy gear to access a sidecountry gate. Such requirements are already in place in several areas I know of -Baker for one and Sunshine Village as well to access the "dive". Where I ski now, no such requirement is in place.

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Originally Posted by kentheskier

I couldnt disagree more!! Nannyism is not the answer. Its not Governments job or the Ski area for that matter to protect people from their own stupidity!!

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No, you are wrong.

Having multiple people FUCKING DIE and then using a vast amount resources to search for their bodies is what will lead to ski area gate closures.

Limiting access to people with a VERY minimal set of requirements will cause fewer complete fucking gapers to pass through the gates, die, and then force others to risk their lives so their bodies can be found before they are scavenged by hungry grizzlies in the spring.

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Originally Posted by Mofro261

Whoa man, my use of "you" wasn't directed at you.

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Yes I got that it wasnt directed at me... I was using "you" generally also, lost in translation

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However, the rest of your statements are in direct contradiction to the topic at hand- Backcountry access gates from ski areas which by their very nature have crowds and idiots. I personally use these gates as well as BC ventures away from the crowds.

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I think its relevent, if you go to ski sidecountry terrain during times of considerable danger... perhaps the number of other users already there should factor into whether or not you proceed.

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You say you ski with a beacon, so I assume you are skiing with a shovel and probe as well yet these have no use to you personally if you are the one buried. Therefore even with full gear you are still at the mercy of your partners,others and their skill level to dig you out. This is all regardless of your knowledge base/terrain selection etc.

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You bring up a good point here, I would say that you still choose who those partners are, or you choose to not ski with partners who you dont deem to have enough know-how... it is still your choice, and that choice can either keep you safe or not.

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I would hardly consider it an impingement on my rights to require proper avy gear to access a sidecountry gate. Such requirements are already in place in several areas I know of -Baker for one and Sunshine Village as well to access the "dive". Where I ski now, no such requirement is in place.

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I admit it seems harmless, but it can lead down a road that we dont want to go down. Perhaps some resorts feel that the beeper gate is too expensive or they dont want to commit resources to enforcement... pretty soon someone within the corp/govt/ect just starts saying lets just close this gate, its easier and cheaper, not to mention safer for the public... I think that we should all be very leary of increased regulations considering it wasnt too long ago that US ski areas didnt have many, if any BC access gates. Restricting access for some will ultimatly end it for the rest of us IMO.

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Originally Posted by kentheskier

Restricting access for some will ultimatly end it for the rest of us IMO.

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Large groups of clueless people dying is more likely to end access than gear restrictions which are in place at plenty of other ski areas already.

video cross-post from Ttips is pretty relevant about gapers in the BC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPX5I...ge/x1925663146

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Originally Posted by kentheskier

We all know how many unprepared/uneducated idiots frequent dangerous side country lines... The solution is simple, venture into BC areas that are free from crowds and dangerous idiots.

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The solution isn't simple. You could avoid BC areas that have crowds and "dangerous idiots", or so you think, only to still be killed by such an idiot. Not sure how I feel on this issue, I do appreciate your POV, but it is utterly irrational to think you have complete control over people not in your party. By definition, if they are not in your group, they are an X-factor, and could be above you even if you are unaware.

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Originally Posted by kentheskier

How about you protect yourself from others stupidity?!?!

We all know how many unprepared/uneducated idiots frequent dangerous side country lines... The solution is simple, venture into BC areas that are free from crowds and dangerous idiots.

Is just another risk that must be considered and should factor into your line selection process. Depending on others/govt/ski areas/ect to protect you from the irrational actions of others is fool hardy.

BTW, I am always beeping in the Back Country!

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Pray tell, how can you spot an idot in the BC? Does he have a sign on his forehead that says, "I'm an idiot." Or maybe a tag on his pack that says, "I'm a BC JONG." Sure, some guy with no probe or shovel is a clue. Or somebody skinning on a 45+ degree wind loaded slope is a clue but sometimes you can't do much to protect yourselves from idiots. But maybe he's got the shovel, got the probe, got the beacon, and he could still be an idiot. I guess it's the idiot you don't see that kills you.

You can never eliminate uncertainty and subjective hazard, only minimize it. Its part of the price of admission.

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Originally Posted by Danno

The solution isn't simple. You could avoid BC areas that have crowds and "dangerous idiots", or so you think, only to still be killed by such an idiot. Not sure how I feel on this issue, I do appreciate your POV, but it is utterly irrational to think you have complete control over people not in your party. By definition, if they are not in your group, they are an X-factor, and could be above you even if you are unaware.

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I totally agree that you cannot control the irrational acts of others... you can however minimize your exposure to them.

My bigger point was about the "now that this has happened, what should be done about it to protect us from others" attitude that seems to be so prevelant in this country. I think that nothing should be done, other than individuals learning what they can from the misfortune of others. I just dont think that we should start throwing new laws and restrictions around every time someone gets hurt/killed. Thats a dangerous path that will ultimatly cost us some of our cherished liberty.

Last summer several people got lost in the Holy Cross wilderness area... on several climbing forums many started saying how confusing the area was to navigate and that we needed more signage. Another example of nannyism. Whats needed is for people to become skilled with map and compass.

Obviously you can never eliminate the idiot factor... just when you think you have gotten away from all of the idiots, another one seems to shows up. But you can manage those risks and stack the odds in your favor. And doing so yourself, versus depending on others to manage those risks for you is preferred IMO.

So what's to stop us from getting off-ed by some idiot behind the wheel of a car?

Idiots are everywhere, and long term exposure could be hazardous to your health....

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Originally Posted by Toadman

Does he have a sign on his forehead that says, "I'm an idiot."

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Here's your sign...

A lot of talk on this thread and on the E-Vail thread about the forest services/resort closing off gates after several burials and fatalities.

Has this ever happened anywhere previously??

Just curious.

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Originally Posted by TeleHoar

A lot of talk on this thread and on the E-Vail thread about the forest services/resort closing off gates after several burials and fatalities.

Has this ever happened anywhere previously??

Just curious.

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Most of them used to never be open for BC travel. They would fine you if you ducked a rope.

was just checking this thread to see if any more victims were found. Did catch this gem by Kentheskier : I think its relevent, if you go to ski sidecountry terrain during times of considerable danger... perhaps the number of other users already there should factor into whether or not you proceed.:rolleyes:

There are no easy answers in this discussion. In every case the dynamic is different. As I see it there are at least 4 separate user groups with vastly different sets of skills and goals.

1. People without a clue, gear or skills that figure the other side of the rope is just as safe and doesn't have any tracks.
2. People with the gear and some knowledge that overestimate their skills and underestimate the consequenses.
3. People with the gear, the skills and the knowledge that may make a poor decision in terms of terrain or hazard.
4. People with the gear, the skills and the knowledge that can select appropriate terrain under any conditions and ski safely in spite of hazard.

In each case cited in this discussion, be it EV, the Canyons or Whitefish the results can be fatal.

All it will take is some Congressman or Senator up for office that decides this is an issue to get some press and the next thing you know the areas will be forced to protect us from ourselves.

What answers can anyone think of?

If you were some Joey at the top of 9990 and were about to exit that gate after having your picture take by the You May Die! signage and its a bluebird day and other people are streaming out that gate like lemmings to the cliff, would you listen to reason?

In the end little good is going to come from this and some access may become restricted. I used to exit Snowbird from the Gad II gate, the Patrol did a check out, looked at your gear and signed you out. Thats a helluva thing to hang on a company and most patrols would rather not deal with that shit, but if ski areas provide the access that may well be the future.

Big mtn has an open access policy. I think the mountain is going to come under pressure from some families that lost their loved ones, probably pay a settlement and start pulling passes for dropping into canyon creek. What sucks is this was set off by an inexperienced BC user, I feel we are lucky a snowmobiler, especially a local wasn't buried, otherwise it would be a completely different shit storm for all the Big Mountain community.

If they had a policy similar to Bridger and Big Sky this accident may have been avoided. Big Sky patrol wouldn't let us out unless we gave them our beacon and they went and buried it. I considered it a privilege that I get to hike the couloir. I was allowed because I saved the dough for the shovel and beacon, and I proved I could use it. Kind of like a drivers license.

It's coming, our privilege of skiing BC is soon to be revoked. The Big Mountain will be like Fernie. No back country access if you ride the lifts.

Chief, you are way behind the times.

"If they had a policy similar to Bridger and Big Sky this accident may have been avoided. Big Sky patrol wouldn't let us out unless we gave them our beacon and they went and buried it. I considered it a privilege that I get to hike the couloir. I was allowed because I saved the dough for the shovel and beacon, and I proved I could use it. Kind of like a drivers license."

Big Sky Ski Patrol hasn't done beacon tests for years, the Cooler is accessed from the top of the tram, a beacon, shovel & probe is required. The A-Zs are accessed from the ridge above Challenger with no gear requirements. The N. Summit of Lone Mountain is accessed and managed by Moonlight Basin, a beacon, shovel & probe is required. The area formerly know as Nashville is open to anyone with a MLB or Lone peak pass.

These days there is very little controlled access terrain left within the boundaries of Big Sky or Moonlight Basin.

There are BC access points to the north side of Lone Mountain and to the west side of Lone Mountain from the top of Lone Mountain.

No gear examination is required to go out those gates. Big Sky does have a fairly strongly worded sign at thier access points as does Moonlight Basin.

Bridger Bowl does still require a beacon & shovel to hike the ridge but they also have BC access gates below the ridge that are open and have no gear requirements.

Should so called sidecountry or slackcountry access go away, well, so what?

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Originally Posted by powXer

Jesus H this is an intense thread. praying for the best...

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what he said

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Originally Posted by Bunion

Chief, you are way behind the times.

"If they had a policy similar to Bridger and Big Sky this accident may have been avoided. Big Sky patrol wouldn't let us out unless we gave them our beacon and they went and buried it. I considered it a privilege that I get to hike the couloir. I was allowed because I saved the dough for the shovel and beacon, and I proved I could use it. Kind of like a drivers license."

Big Sky Ski Patrol hasn't done beacon tests for years, the Cooler is accessed from the top of the tram, a beacon, shovel & probe is required. The A-Zs are accessed from the ridge above Challenger with no gear requirements. The N. Summit of Lone Mountain is accessed and managed by Moonlight Basin, a beacon, shovel & probe is required. The area formerly know as Nashville is open to anyone with a MLB or Lone peak pass.

These days there is very little controlled access terrain left within the boundaries of Big Sky or Moonlight Basin.

There are BC access points to the north side of Lone Mountain and to the west side of Lone Mountain from the top of Lone Mountain.

No gear examination is required to go out those gates. Big Sky does have a fairly strongly worded sign at thier access points as does Moonlight Basin.

Bridger Bowl does still require a beacon & shovel to hike the ridge but they also have BC access gates below the ridge that are open and have no gear requirements.

Should so called sidecountry or slackcountry access go away, well, so what?

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So What??? If you're referring to Big Scam then yeah, who cares, let them live in the bed they made. But for Big mountain there is a ton of access from all areas off the mountain that will put you in good snow conditions when the rest the mountain is skied out. If they close this it will change the vibe for the locals and bums who know where the goods are, it will also put more pressure on the mountain because people will have to find all the stashes for good skiing. It is sometimes easier to hike for your turns than find a local who knows the stashes, or even know how to navigate all the different pitches the mtn has.

I'm not behind the times I just saw that it worked for bigsky up until they put in the tram.

So what if they shut down the ridge? that would be a travesty, doubt it will ever happen though

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Originally Posted by SuperChief

Big mtn has an open access policy. I think the mountain is going to come under pressure from some families that lost their loved ones, probably pay a settlement and start pulling passes for dropping into canyon creek. What sucks is this was set off by an inexperienced BC user, I feel we are lucky a snowmobiler, especially a local wasn't buried, otherwise it would be a completely different shit storm for all the Big Mountain community.

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I don't think the boundary policy is going to change. Pretty un-Montana thing to do.

There is, and has been all year, a very strongly worded sign at the Flower Point access road. The Flower Point/Canyon Creek area are all so heavily used by BC users such as skiers, snowmobilers and snowshoers it would be impossible to regulate. What are they going to do, set-up a checkpoint on the groom track back to 7???


And, I have no fucking clue what you mean in your last sentence....WTF???

I feel we are lucky a snowmobiler, especially a local wasn't buried, otherwise it would be a completely different shit storm for all the Big Mountain community.

Just the community would be after the mountain to be responsible for people riding the lifts up and getting into canyon creek and putting 'bilers in danger. I know I'm grasping but I am nervous the place could be shut down

I know the access would be tough to regulate almost impossible, thats why I think they could start pulling passes if we start ducking ropes if it were to be closed.

uh.... never mind.