Police Behaving Badly

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Originally Posted by Bromontana

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org...pery-Slope.png

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I assume you mean if we follow police orders we are giving up our freedom. I don't buy it. If you refuse to follow an illegal police order you will be forced to follow the order anyway, so either way you lose your rights. One way you also lose your teeth and maybe your life. Illegal police activity should be fought--in the courts, as is being done with stop and frisk--and in the media. There are times when it's appropriate to refuse--when refusing is a political act with enough public attention to keep the police from maiming you when they arrest you. When you're alone on a deserted street is not the time.

Victim blame much ?

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Originally Posted by old goat

I assume you mean if we follow police orders we are giving up our freedom. I don't buy it. If you refuse to follow an illegal police order you will be forced to follow the order anyway, so either way you lose your rights. One way you also lose your teeth and maybe your life. Illegal police activity should be fought--in the courts, as is being done with stop and frisk--and in the media. There are times when it's appropriate to refuse--when refusing is a political act with enough public attention to keep the police from maiming you when they arrest you. When you're alone on a deserted street is not the time.

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So it's okay to participate in an illegal protest, but if a cop tries to rape or beat you just bend over and take it? Disagree. Maybe if you could demonstrate that courts are an effective or somewhat useful tool against police misconduct I'd agree. They're not by any statistical measure (<1% of police crimes result in convictions). That kid had a level head the entire incident until he was tased. He did nothing to warrant or provoke the cop to do what he did, the two had prior history - even prior history of unlawful arrest. That cop wanted to manhandle the kid and the kid damn well knew it. So he followed his cop/dad's advice and kept his window high and tried to say in his car - the smart thing to do around a homicidal psychopath.

I fucking hate corrupt cops. Worse than gangbangers. They need to be purged by any means necessary.

The idea is to comply, even with unlawful orders, so you don't get beaten. Once you resist the law will say the cop was justified in doing whatever they did to you. Pick your battles and don't fight those that you can't win. If a cop starts beating you even when you comply, the court will at least side with you if there is video evidence.

My advice to my little cousin.

think about that sweet lawsuit cash

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Originally Posted by TomCrac

Victim blame much ?

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Kid wasn't wrong, just stupid. If he had gotten out of the car when told to he wouldn't have been tased to death. That does not mean the cop was justified in what he did. The kid was in the right, the cop in the wrong. But the kid is brain damaged and nearly died. Was it worth it to assert his rights? Not in my opinion--and I'm pretty sure he would say the same.

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Originally Posted by Bromontana

So it's okay to participate in an illegal protest, but if a cop tries to rape or beat you just bend over and take it? Disagree. Maybe if you could demonstrate that courts are an effective or somewhat useful tool against police misconduct I'd agree. They're not by any statistical measure (<1% of police crimes result in convictions). That kid had a level head the entire incident until he was tased. He did nothing to warrant or provoke the cop to do what he did, the two had prior history - even prior history of unlawful arrest. That cop wanted to manhandle the kid and the kid damn well knew it. So he followed his cop/dad's advice and kept his window high and tried to say in his car - the smart thing to do around a homicidal psychopath.

I fucking hate corrupt cops. Worse than gangbangers. They need to be purged by any means necessary.

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If a cop tells you to get out of the car you do it. If he tries to beat you or rape you, sure--fight back, but it won't do any good. The point is not to be in the position to get beaten in the first place. And if a psychopathic cop tells you to get out of the car, keeping your window nearly closed and staying in the car is not going to work. You are getting out of the car one way or the other. You are going to lose, unless you're ready to shoot a cop. The point is not to assert your rights; the point is to avoid bodily injury. Are the courts an ideal way to deal with abusive cops? Of course not, but I'd rather go to court suing the PD for an illegal search or arrest than testifying in a wheelchair at a cop's criminal trial. And the courts do help somewhat--at least for the time being in NYC's stop and frisk policy. (And if you want things to get better you better make damn sure the next Supreme Court justice is not appointed by Donald Trump.) BTW--protests aren't illegal just because someone in authority says they are. I don't know why the people who are so vehement in protecting the second amendment ignore the first.

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Originally Posted by neufox47

The idea is to comply, even with unlawful orders, so you don't get beaten. Once you resist the law will say the cop was justified in doing whatever they did to you. Pick your battles and don't fight those that you can't win. If a cop starts beating you even when you comply, the court will at least side with you if there is video evidence.

My advice to my little cousin.

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At least someone gets it. I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of black people telling their sons to stand up for their rights when challenged by the cops. Unless they happen to be crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge with the cameras rolling. Then it made sense to get beaten.

Bootlicker

Proper response = lock the door and keep windows high. Call the police and explain you need a Sgt asap, being assaulted by a cocksucker with a cop car.

Use that new ACLU app that uploads your beating in real time so the cops can't grab your phone and delete it.

MOST cops in America are decent people, but there are clearly a fairly significant number who are psycho, and I have no idea why the good ones protect the bad ones. That makes them all bad in my eyes. I did not grow up thinking this, only in the last 5 years have I started seeing cops as thugs.

The attitude that we should just obey LEOs without question and deal with it later is what put us in the current situation. We were indoctrinated with this mentality, the cops too, and now we have a situation where the very people whose job it is to SERVE and PROTECT us think they are our masters and that their job is to TERRORIZE and SUBJUGATE us. Continuing with the status quo will never change anything.

The kid was being targeted. Read up on the story. He had 2 prior (bullshit) run ins with these assholes. His dad, a cop himself, called up the station to find out just what was going on. They did not appreciate the call. You think they would extend some "courtesy"? Nope. They just turned up the volume. Subsequently he gets pulled over again for more made up bullshit. Warrant on the plate, lie. Smell of marijuana, another lie. They had it out for this kid.

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Originally Posted by old goat

If he had gotten out of the car when told to he wouldn't have been tased to death.

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You do not know this.

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Originally Posted by old goat:4750755

If he tries to beat you or rape you, sure--fight back, but it won't do any good.

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Ugh.(yeah, I read your bit about not putting yourself in the position. Good luck with that when you are being targeted by some psycho.

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Originally Posted by old goat:4750755

And if a psychopathic cop tells you to get out of the car, keeping your window nearly closed and staying in the car is not going to work.

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"One of those witness, Curtis Martes, 17, whose house Masters was on his way to play video games at when the incident occurred, went out to his porch when he heard Masters car pull up and was surprised to see a cop parked behind Masters. He claims that Masters couldn’t roll his window down because the window was broken and would only partially roll down."

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Originally Posted by old goat:4750755

And the courts do help somewhat--

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You mean lodge a complaint with the PD and the Prosecutor that reviewed the case and had cleared themselves of any wrong doing?


Belongs elsewhere...

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Originally Posted by old goat: 4750755

(And if you want things to get better you better make damn sure the next Supreme Court justice is not appointed by Donald Trump.)

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"In 1994, President Clinton signed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, which offered states billions in funding for new prisons – but only if they adopted “truth in sentencing laws” that would reduce prisoners’ eligibility for parole. The law also established mandatory life-sentences for people convicted of a third violent felony, among other punitive measures. By the end of the Clinton presidency, the number of people in America’s prisons rose by nearly 60%, according to the Brennan Center for Justice."

Take it to pollyasshat.

It's interesting how the FBI saw the video that same day and when shown the kid's shattered teeth and dislocated jaw + brain damage, they weren't surprised in the least. I guess it takes maiming the son of a cop to actually trigger the broken system of checks & balances, else the video is blocked from release. Allowing many crimes to be covered up forever.

always question authority

Should not have watched that video. Infuriating. If I was the boys father I don't know what I would do.

Refusing to roll down your window when a cop tells you to--then you'll have a broken window and a broken head to deal with.
When is the last time you think a cop ordered someone out of a car, the guy refused, and the cop said "OK"? And do you think the Sgt is going to have your back or the cops?
The next time you boys are ordered out of car, refuse, and then let me know how that worked out for you.You're living in an internet world; try refusing and you'll find out how the real world works. You want to stand up for your rights and get your head busted, be my guest.

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Originally Posted by old goat

The next time you boys are ordered out of car, refuse, and then let me know how that worked out for you.

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I can do better than "next time." Here's what happened the last time I was ordered out of a car by a cop.

15 or so years ago I was sitting in the front passenger seat in a bud's car as he drove home from night skiing. A WSP trooper pulled him over for speeding, though not more than 5 or 6 mph over the speed limit. (Pretty sure the cop was looking for drunk drivers and used speeding as probable cause for the stop.)

After my bud gave the copy his DL and registration, the copy turned his attention towards me. I was drunk, but not breaking any law cuz I was merely a passenger. The cop asked me to get out of the car. I politely declined. The cop then ordered me to get out of the car. I then respectfully asked the cop "Why, officer?" and he said "Just get out of the car." Then, while looking at his name badge, I respectfully asked him, "Do you have probable cause that I had committed a crime, am committing a crime or am about to commit a crime." He looked puzzled, then asked, "Are you a lawyer," to which I responded "yes." He said "never mind" and let us proceed.

This happened for real, not on the internet.

^^^ Has nothing to do with the disgusting, inhuman, and illegal disregard for human life that followed. Head trauma like that is no joke. And it was totally unwarranted. 4 years is not enough time. I would have a hard time not wanting him dead if it was my kid. Accidents happen in jail.

And what Big Steve said.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

I can do better than "next time." Here's what happened the last time I was ordered out of a car by a cop.

15 or so years ago I was sitting in the front passenger seat in a buds car as he drove home from night skiing. A WSP trooper pulled him over for speeding, though not more than 5 or 6 mph over the speed limit. (Pretty sure the cop was looking for drunk drivers and used speeding as probable cause for the stop.)

After my bud gave the copy his DL and registration, the copy turned his attention towards me. I was drunk, but not breaking any law cuz I was merely a passenger. The cop asked me to get out of the car. I politely declined. The cop then ordered me to get out of the car. I then respectfully asked the cop "Why, officer" and he said "just get out of the car." Then, while looking at his name badge, I respectfully asked him, "Do you have probable cause that I had committed a crime, am committing a crime or am about to commit a crime." He looked puzzled, then asked, "Are you a lawyer," to which I responded "yes." He said "never mind" and let us proceed.

This happened for real, not on the internet.

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How do you think that would have worked out if you were 18, black, and in the inner city?

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Originally Posted by neufox47

How do you think that would have worked out if you were 18, black, and in the inner city?

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If history is a guide, it very well would have ended poorly for an 18 y.o. black inner city kid whether or not he complied with the cop's unwarranted directive. Plenty o' black boys and men have been beaten up by cops notwithstanding that the kids complied with cop's orders.

There's good reason that sometimes black boys and men figure that running away is less risky than complying with a cop's order to stop.

Relevance? How many black 18 y.o. inner city kids are on TGR?

My son Clarence posts under my name from time to time

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

If history is a guide, it very well would have ended poorly for the kid whether or not he complied with the cop's unwarranted directive. Plenty o' black teens have been beaten up by cops notwithstanding that the kids complied with cop's orders.

Relevance? How many black 18 y.o. inner city kids are on TGR?

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Poorly, yes he probably still gets searched, maybe the cop plants some evidence, etc. But he likely doesn't end up getting tazed to death and his teeth smashed in. If you do not resist, most cops aren't going to get physical with you, even the worst ones. Not saying what he did was wrong, just that I wouldn't tell an 18 year old to take that approach with a cop.

My example went to the most extreme end of the spectrum, but the point stands, that you were a well educated white middle aged male and then he found out you were an attorney - definitely helped there. I don't know that Bobby or Buttah get the same response from that cop.

But let's say the cop opens the door or smashes in the window, then what? Are you going to stay seated and resist or comply?

if the police ask you about your money

ask them about their money

and say FUCK YOU


https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/i...harges-at-all/

17 years ago I was driving a new Camaro from SW to NE Virginia. While driving close to the speed limit a Mustang GT pulls up aside me, shuffles ahead, then behind, then ahead again. I did what any 18yo with a heavy foot would do - downshift and not look back until the dash said 110mph. At that time I noticed the blue & red lights in the rear view, hidden behind the Mustang's grill. I pull over, cop walks up and asks "what were you doing?" I told him "just slowing down, officer." He writes a ticket for 100 in a 55, method of speed capture was pacing.

That led to threats from the parents to take the car and not let me drive to Utah the next month for sophomore year (my transfer year to the UofU). After talking with a local attorney we learned that not only did the cop bait me, he had a reputation for creative law enforcement. The prosecutor was quick to offer a reduction to 74/55 (not reckless) and I jumped on it as the judge cocked his head wondering why I was walking out of the courtroom with a DL.

On the drive to Utah the next month I was pulled over and ticketed by Vernal popo for going 7mph over the limit in the middle of the fucking desert. I had to calm down my dad as the cop approached. He wanted to beat the shit out of that fat-assed revenue consultant.

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Originally Posted by digitaldeath

if the police ask you about your money

ask them about their money

and say FUCK YOU


https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/i...harges-at-all/

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How is this different from existing civil asset forfeiture laws (which are fuuuucked up)?

NF, if you want to play the hypothetical game, what about the black boy or man who obeys a cop's orders to stop, and then gets beaten up or lynched, but if he would have run away he might have avoided injury and lived. That hypothetical has presented itself in real time many times in America.

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Originally Posted by neufox47

But let's say the cop opens the door or smashes in the window, then what? Are you going to stay seated and resist or comply?

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By then it's too late. The cop is already out of control and in rage mode. I never suggested anything about resisting. That's your strawman.

When a young person asks me advice re dealing with a cop, I tell them what my cop buds tell me: #1 rule is to never disrespect a cop because disrespected cops are more likely to go apeshit. #2 rule is that it's fine to respectfully ask the cop about probable cause (if they haven't already told you why they stopped you, which is standard procedure for many cops) because on the whole a cop is less likely to go bad on people who appear to know their rights.

Not sure why you are dismissing my point re respectfully exercising the right, except in exigent circumstances, to question an LEO's probable cause re why they were stopped or why they are being ordered to get out of a car, so long as that is done respectfully. IMO, if more people asked about probable cause there would be less police abuse.