Electric car thread

Basic science is why EVs have crushed hydrogen in light cars and trucks.

EV: take electricity, store it in battery (~90% efficient), pass electricity through drivetrain (~80% efficient)
Total efficiency = 1 x 0.9 x .08 = 0.72 units of transportation for one unit of electricity. And, this does not include energy generated from braking.

Hydrogen fuel cell: create hydrogen via electrolysis (~65% efficient), compress it into tank and decompress it back out (~75% efficient) then run it through a fuel cell (~50% efficient)
Total efficiency = 1 x 0.65 X 0.75 x 0.5 =0.24

You get way more transportation out of a unit of energy with an EV than with hydrogen. Hydrogen loses.

Toyota bet the farm on hydrogen, and now they are way behind on EVs so they are trying to derail the EV movement. Toyota is far from green...

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Originally Posted by WMD

Toyota bet the farm on hydrogen, and now they are way behind on EVs so they are trying to derail the EV movement. Toyota is far from green...

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why do people all in on BEV get brain worms?

basic science says battery hasn’t crushed fuck all and won’t

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Originally Posted by AdironRider

Except for the 5% of trips that aren't, and the charging part is a like 95% of the equation.

Like I said, there is a very limited use case, but telling 99% of the world to buy an additional very expensive vehicle that depreciates like a stone just for short trips is a non-starter.

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you sound like every fat fuck suburbanite in the Bay Area buying a SUV “for the trip to Tahoe” who didn’t ski.

it ain’t because you need it, it’s cuz you want it

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Originally Posted by dunfree

why do people all in on BEV get brain worms?

basic science says battery hasn’t crushed fuck all and won’t

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I remember when I had my first beer. . .

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Originally Posted by WMD

I remember when I had my first beer. . .

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the worst advocates for BEV are the people who are BEV advocates. Anyway be the smug asshole in your Lightning thinking you are changing the world

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Originally Posted by dunfree

the worst advocates for BEV are the people who are BEV advocates. Anyway be the smug asshole in your Lightning thinking you are changing the world

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For the record, I don't have to be smug to still be an asshole. And I definitely don't think owning/driving a Lightning (I don't - yet anyway) or any EV is going to save the world. I do think it is is going to ruin the world a little less than driving an ICE vehicle. And that is worth something.

Also, showing basic math/science makes one a bad BEV advocate. Ok. Someone has an agenda.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

the worst advocates for BEV are the people who are BEV advocates. Anyway be the smug asshole in your Lightning thinking you are changing the world

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He is changing the world. Creating demand for product drives the innovation cycle that makes better product. In the case of battery powered vehicles, hybrid drivers did this starting 20 years ago. All the "it'll never work" and "it'll cost too much" naysayers lose their oxygen when those things start driving around.

I got clued in early 90s at the Bonneville Salt Flats - that "race" where people see how fast their car will go. Well, there was a team with an experimental electric car, bullet train motor. I asked how fast they planned to go, and it don't remember whether they said 300, 400, or 500 mph, and which track, but they were running one of the fastest cars that year. Yeah? Well electric can only go fast. Sounds like what they said about early fat skis too - only good for rare uses. No longer experimental, every manufacturer wants to sell them.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

you sound like every fat fuck suburbanite in the Bay Area buying a SUV “for the trip to Tahoe” who didn’t ski.

it ain’t because you need it, it’s cuz you want it

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Literally all of modern society is built on wants not needs.

Well, except for those pesky poor people (rolls down Taycan window, asks elderly man in Lucid for some condiment)

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Originally Posted by WMD

Basic science is why EVs have crushed hydrogen in light cars and trucks.

EV: take electricity, store it in battery (~90% efficient), pass electricity through drivetrain (~80% efficient)
Total efficiency = 1 x 0.9 x .08 = 0.72 units of transportation for one unit of electricity. And, this does not include energy generated from braking.

Hydrogen fuel cell: create hydrogen via electrolysis (~65% efficient), compress it into tank and decompress it back out (~75% efficient) then run it through a fuel cell (~50% efficient)
Total efficiency = 1 x 0.65 X 0.75 x 0.5 =0.24

You get way more transportation out of a unit of energy with an EV than with hydrogen. Hydrogen loses.

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While you're not wrong on overall efficiency, what hydrogen DOES still address well is localized emissions. Less smog is less smog. Sure, it might be displaced if the energy is still produced by nearby fossil based power plants to make and transport the H2, but electricity has the same issue. Industry's been scrambling to start using more green energy in the production of the hydrogen. It's FAR from perfect at this point, but advancements in the field are being made as we speak.

I think it's a great possibility for a middle ground. ESPECIALLY when it comes to powering large, heavy equipment. Think not just semis, but eventually trains, ships, construction equipment, etc. NONE of that stuff is going to be purely battery powered any time soon, if ever. H2 is WAY more feasible if reducing emissions is your chief goal.

Now that's giant equipment. When it comes to personal vehicles, EVs are great, but H2 also has the potential to help, as do hybrids for now. Especially PHEVs. If we want to reduce emissions as rapidly as possible, I believe the most realistic solution is an All-of-the-Above approach.

I think it's a "Yes and" for BEV's/Hydrogens. There's use cases for rapid refueling or other factors that may better suit a hydrogen cell (also if there's an easy hydrogen as a byproduct available as part of refining or other activities), so developing both out in pockets makes sense. That said - either are better than fossil fuel as they ultimately untether us from reliance on them.

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Originally Posted by schuss

I think it's a "Yes and" for BEV's/Hydrogens. There's use cases for rapid refueling or other factors that may better suit a hydrogen cell (also if there's an easy hydrogen as a byproduct available as part of refining or other activities), so developing both out in pockets makes sense. That said - either are better than fossil fuel as they ultimately untether us from reliance on them.

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EXACTLY! That's where people are wrong in their logic of picking a winner and acting like that's the ONLY way to go about it. I think there's enough room in the marketplace for multiple fuel sources. I mean, as it is we already have gasoline, diesel, and an ever-increasing charging network. In the not too distant future, it could look more like EV chargers, H2 stations, and a mere handful of remaining gas stations. Hydrogen has tremendous potential to replace diesel.

I've been paying attention to of course the energy industry as a whole, as well as the construction industry globally. Hydrogen is being talked about pretty heavily these days as a viable alternative. Look into the upcoming massive Hydrogen hub that Apex Clean Energy is going to be building at the Port of Corpus Christi in TX. It is a BIG deal.

Austin, what are your thoughts on injecting small amounts of hydrogen into current diesel engines? https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/ene...hytech-storage This company uses a small onboard electrolysis device to generate the hydrogen.

Obviously carbon emissions continue but would be 30% lower…and NOx and particulates would be dramatically lower. These bridging solutions are appealing when you consider the carbon footprint of manufacturing any new tractor unit.

Peak gasoline demand? In the news and on the twatters.


https://twitter.com/johnrhanger/stat...pTqbBpA1Q&s=19

I want to be healthily skeptical of course, but trying to wrap my head around this is important. Most people won't even try.

Good article.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/01/21/...and-decreases/

Peak oil. The fools errand.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

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Originally Posted by Mazderati

The Ioniq 5 and Kia equivalent are reviewed well and toward the top of efficiency lists.

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And they put up numbers not far off their sister brand, Genesis. Supercar numbers at normal people prices is pretty appealing.



Toyoda’s stance is that the market is heading in the wrong direction with an EV-only focus. Maybe he’s right, but the resulting political affiliations and optics are worse for business than investment in EV tech. I certainly find it off putting. Regardless, there’s no doubt they’re quietly working on EV tech and will put out something to compete. Looks like Honda is just being Honda, dragging their feet and fine tuning what has worked for other brands.

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Originally Posted by uglymoney

Peak gasoline demand? In the news and on the twatters.


https://twitter.com/johnrhanger/stat...pTqbBpA1Q&s=19

I want to be healthily skeptical of course, but trying to wrap my head around this is important. Most people won't even try.

Good article.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/01/21/...and-decreases/

Peak oil. The fools errand.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using Tapatalk

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Maybe the future is here. Though I’m still waiting for the flying cars we were promised.

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Originally Posted by frorider

Austin, what are your thoughts on injecting small amounts of hydrogen into current diesel engines? https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/ene...hytech-storage This company uses a small onboard electrolysis device to generate the hydrogen.

Obviously carbon emissions continue but would be 30% lower…and NOx and particulates would be dramatically lower. These bridging solutions are appealing when you consider the carbon footprint of manufacturing any new tractor unit.

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Renewable hydrogen discussion: https://www.opb.org/article/2023/01/...deral-funding/

My natural gas utility is or will soon be mixing a small amount of hydrogen into their gas. 1% I believe.


Hydrogen seems like it has good long term applications. Unfortunately we have boxed ourselves into a situation where we can’t wait for a distribution network to be built. You can put a EV charger pretty much anywhere there is a power line.

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Tesla earned $15,653 in gross profit per vehicle in the third quarter of 2022 - more than twice as much as Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE), four times the comparable figure at Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) and five times more than Ford Motor Co (F.N), according to a Reuters analysis.

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Not a Musk fan but it’s impressive that Tesla build costs and margins are apparently well managed

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Hydrogen seems like it has good long term applications. Unfortunately we have boxed ourselves into a situation where we can’t wait for a distribution network to be built. You can put a EV charger pretty much anywhere there is a power line.

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Yes, and auto manufacturers are spending $trillions (yes with a "t") on BEVs. Ford and others have plans to expand charging networks. BEVs are where we are going, like it or not.

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Originally Posted by frorider

Not a Musk fan but it’s impressive that Tesla build costs and margins are apparently well managed

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Having had some first hand experience with Tesla manufacturing, the fact that they are able to maintain those margins makes me hopeful that electric cars are going to become much more affordable…

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Originally Posted by frorider

Austin, what are your thoughts on injecting small amounts of hydrogen into current diesel engines? https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/ene...hytech-storage This company uses a small onboard electrolysis device to generate the hydrogen.

Obviously carbon emissions continue but would be 30% lower…and NOx and particulates would be dramatically lower. These bridging solutions are appealing when you consider the carbon footprint of manufacturing any new tractor unit.

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It's fascinating and far more realistic in the short term than convincing millions of independent drivers with aging trucks to switch to expensive (and currently non-existent) long haul electric trucks. I hope the technology pans out. Is it perfect? Of course not, but if proven, could end up being a huge win for the environment as compared to today. Seems that without a viable bridge like this, environmental goals will take MUCH longer to achieve.

EV car market is definitely softening. Since it's release, I've been seeing the (unfortunately named) Mustang Mach E going for silly money. Often, 20-30K over MSRP. Not much less when used. Anyway, I saw a 1-year old used one pop up on Craigslist for under MSRP. Not by much, but still. Piqued my curiosity so I did an Autotrader search. Did a 300 mile search and HUNDREDS of them popped up, many of them discounted. Used ones going for $10K or more under retail. Not that I want one in the slightest, BUT I think it's a good indicator of the state of the market. Not a crash at all, but hopefully the beginning of a return to normalcy. Hopefully the excellent Kia/Hyundai offerings won't be far behind in this trend.

Hydrogen blows for reasons we understand here, but I look at it this way. If we have excess production of clean energy on windy/sunny day what is the harm in wasting some if it to make hydrogen? Just another storage method as long as we have ways to burn it. Better than turning off the capacity, right?

It has density, which is useful.

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Originally Posted by frorider

Austin, what are your thoughts on injecting small amounts of hydrogen into current diesel engines? https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/ene...hytech-storage This company uses a small onboard electrolysis device to generate the hydrogen.

Obviously carbon emissions continue but would be 30% lower…and NOx and particulates would be dramatically lower. These bridging solutions are appealing when you consider the carbon footprint of manufacturing any new tractor unit.

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That article is from 2018. HyTech Power's website is still live, but Google lists their office location as "Permanently Closed" and this is the most recent review on the listing (6 months ago):

"I think they've either moved or more likely, gone out of business. The website is functional but calls and emails go unanswered. A visit to the business address showed that they still have logos up. There are no personnel in the building that I can see though it's listed as being "open" on Google. Looking into the windows, everything looks stripped and there are moving boxes.
I am disappointed because this tech is very important and hard to find.
*Update
After some research, the short story, they ran out of money. Last year the shareholders, JC AVIATION INVESTMENTS, LLC(52% holder) and HTP, INC.(48% holder), sued each other over funding/lack of funding, use of tech and if they should close down operations/sales or not. As of now, there are no employees, an empty building and no product available. The State still lists the company as active and there were recent changes to the board which appear to remove the HTP board members."