Bill Clinton pwns Fox News

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

MP you're a propoganda swallowing moron.

Senate Report of Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq:

"no credible reports that non-Iraqis were trained to conduct or support transnational terrorist operations at Salman Pak after 1991." DIA assessed that the foreigners were likely volunteers who traveled to Iraq in the months before Operation Iraqi Freedom began to fight overtly alongside Iraqi military forces...DIA said it has "no information from Salman Pak that links al-Qa'ida with the former regime."

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I'll have to admit PNWbrit, you have impressive Straw Man killing skills.

Since you didn't provide a link, so I can read the whole report for myself, I have a few questions for you:

Did the report also conclude that there was no terrorist training going on at Salman Pak after 1991, or just that there was no non-Iraqi terrorist training going on at Salman Pak after 1991?

With that question as context, I'll ask another. If you are killed by an Iraqi terrorist, are you any less dead than if you are killed by a non-Iraqi terrorist?

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The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence concluded that:

..it is difficult to conclude from their second-hand accounts whether Iraq was training al-Qa'ida members, as opposed to other foreign nationals...

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So if I understand this correctly, it is difficult to tell wether al-Qa'ida was being trained or other foreign nationals were being trained. Does it really make a difference to you? It doesn't make a difference to me.

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Originally Posted by AstroPax

Amazing, you just don't see the big pic...which is typical of a secular progressive such as yourself.

-Astro

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You moron, it has nothing to do with religious affiliation, it has to do with right and wrong. For you to drag it down to religious beliefs is fucking whack beyond belief.

BTW, TwoBuddhas still fucking hates you, he talks about you a lot, I don't think he knows where you're hiding, I think maybe I'll invite him over here to explain why and how much you suck and maybe tear the whole fucking place down in the process, you unmitigated piece of shit.

Take pictures, shut the fuck up.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

I'll have to admit PNWbrit, you have impressive Straw Man killing skills.

Since you didn't provide a link, so I can read the whole report for myself, I have a few questions for you:

Did the report also conclude that there was no terrorist training going on at Salman Pak after 1991, or just that there was no non-Iraqi terrorist training going on at Salman Pak after 1991?

With that question as context, I'll ask another. If you are killed by an Iraqi terrorist, are you any less dead than if you are killed by a non-Iraqi terrorist?




So if I understand this correctly, it is difficult to tell wether al-Qa'ida was being trained or other foreign nationals were being trained. Does it really make a difference to you? It doesn't make a difference to me.

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The reports I quoted are public domain - if you're too stupid, or partisan to find them....

The simple facts are that not a single American or other westerner (no statement of value should be attached to that description) was killed by an Iraqi or Iraqi trained terrorist until we invaded Iraq and gave them a chance, or reason to do so.

The three quotes I gave are quite clear.... there is and was no evidence of terrorist training camps in Iraq. Perhaps you could provide us what the Senate committee and CIA couldn't? THe only people still spouting this bulls shit are you, a.m. radio and the regime occupying the White House.

i should include an amendment to my above statement. I believe we should be in Iraq. No question in my mind. Saddam was a brutal dictator who committed mass genocide. nobody except Saddam will deny that fact. that is reason enough for me.
should bush be thrown in jail? yes. he lied to the american public on a much larger scale than Clinton. It was our choice to go to war (it says so in the constitution) and he stole that from us by using 9/11, fear and lies. he has ordered the deaths of thousands of your brothers/sisters/fathers/mothers and friends all based on lies. does this not bring tears to your eyes? its swelling mine.
I'm also sitting here watching the first half of the Saints game and I can't get it out of my mind how badly he dropped the ball. He failed us again and managed to lie his way out.

tell me when did Clinton let us down on this level? tell me when Clinton lead us into a war based on lies? tell me how Clinton violated our constitution? tell me when CLinton forgot about the Bill of Rights?

-aaron

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Originally Posted by gonehuckin

"Islamo-fascism"

please explain this term....if you knew what it meant you would certainly veiw Bush differently.

fascism by definition is simply putting corporate interests above that of the public. point blank.

please review your history books before calling someone else a dumbass.

-aaron

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Fuck You. How do you know how I view Bush?

Furthermore, by definition, "Fascism" is the imposition of state control over all aspects of life...political, social, cultural, and economic.

Furthermore, one of the main tenants of fascism is "a belief that the group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits."

Sure sounds like something OBL himself would say.

Why, what's the matter, are you offended by that term?

-Astro

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Originally Posted by iceman

BTW, TwoBuddhas still fucking hates you, he talks about you a lot, I don't think he knows where you're hiding

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Hiding? From who? From what? From that fatass?? Ha, ha, that's funny.

If I was actually trying to hide, do you really think I would be posting here under "AstroPax"?

-Astro

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The simple facts are that not a single American or other westerner (no statement of value should be attached to that description) was killed by an Iraqi or Iraqi trained terrorist until we invaded Iraq and gave them a chance, or reason to do so.

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Wow, I guessed you missed the first Gulf War...you know...that little thing about Iraq invading Kuwait. Or are you too young to remember that one?

-Astro

no i'm not offend. i believe it is being used incorrectly to bring fear up as a further motivator. and no thats not the definition of fascism. those same quotes can be used to describe theocracies, dictatorships, and most repressive regimes.
"a belief that the group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits."
this sounds like the administrations approach to torture, wiretapping, Gitmo holding prisoners without due process and "military tribunals".

i made no assumptions about your take on Bush. just your use of Fascism.

please read: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0828-23.htm


-aaron

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Originally Posted by AstroPax

Wow, I guessed you missed the first Gulf War...you know...that little thing about Iraq invading Kuwait. Or are you too young to remember that one?

-Astro

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Prepared to bet I have a few years on you. But it's particularly difficult for me to forget since a member of my family was killed there :fuckyou:

Kuwait was invaded by the nation state of Iraq. No terrorism was involved.

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Originally Posted by AstroPax

Wow, I guessed you missed the first Gulf War...you know...that little thing about Iraq invading Kuwait. Or are you too young to remember that one?

-Astro

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He, like me, is old enough to remember the war that caused the current president to start the current war because he felt like his daddy done got dissed.

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Originally Posted by gonehuckin

no i'm not offend. i believe it is being used incorrectly to bring fear up as a further motivator.

please read: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0828-23.htm

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OK, thanks. I'll read your "News and Views for the Progressive Community".

In the meantime, you should read this:

http://www.alamut.com/subj/economics/misc/clash.html

-Astro

actually i read huntington in a freshman undergrade polysci course.

but i appreciate the insight.

i refered you to that editorial not because i wanted you to take everything he says a truth but more that i want you to read the definition of Fascism brought to us by those who saw it first hand.

-aaron

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The reports I quoted are public domain - if you're too stupid, or partisan to find them....

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Your bitterness is shortening your life...

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The simple facts are that not a single American or other westerner (no statement of value should be attached to that description) was killed by an Iraqi or Iraqi trained terrorist until we invaded Iraq and gave them a chance, or reason to do so

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...and nobody flew airplanes into buildings until somebody flew airplanes into buildings. You can wait around for somebody to kill you before you react if you want to. But nobody ever won anything playing defense. You have to go on the offensive, if you wait until they attack you, there is a heavy price to pay.

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The three quotes I gave are quite clear.... there is and was no evidence of terrorist training camps in Iraq.

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No, that is not what the quotes said. They said that:

1. There was no evidence that there were non-Iraqis being trained at Salman Pak after 1991.

2. There was no credible evidence that Al-Quida training in Iraq.

3. There was post war information that terrorist training took place at Salman Pak, but due to second-hand information, it was difficult to tell wether the people being trained were Al-Quida or other foreign nationals, and, post war exploration yields no link to Al-Quida.

That is very different from saying that there were no terrorist training camps in Iraq.
In fact, that third quote indicates that there was terrorist training in Iraq, but no link to Al-Quida.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

CIA report to the committe:

"There was information developed after OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedem) that indicated terrorists were trained at Salman Pak;

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I'm tired, I'm going to bed.

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Originally Posted by AstroPax

Furthermore, one of the main tenants of fascism is "a belief that the group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits."

Sure sounds like something OBL himself would say.


-Astro

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Actually, that is something Bush actually IS saying, in regards to CIA camps and habeas corpus. For reals.

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Originally Posted by gonehuckin

i refered you to that editorial not because i wanted you to take everything he says a truth but more that i want you to read the definition of Fascism brought to us by those who saw it first hand.

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OK, the credit at the bottom of the article explains everything, but thanks anyway:

"Thom Hartmann is a Project Censored Award-winning best-selling author, and host of a nationally syndicated daily progressive talk show carried on the Air America Radio network"

-Astro

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Originally Posted by rideit

Actually, that is something Bush actually IS saying, in regards to CIA camps and habeas corpus. For reals.

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Mere details. Next question.

Many would argue that thousands upon thousands of terrorists were trained in the US, by the CIA, for all sorts of operations globally. (Contra's, sandonistas, Afghanis, Saudis, etc)
Should we destroy our own country because of that inconvienent fact as well?

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Originally Posted by rideit

Actually, that is something Bush actually IS saying, in regards to CIA camps and habeas corpus. For reals.

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We put a patrol dog in the face of a terrorist, while in the meantime, they cut off heads. Whatever.

I'm sorry, but I think you are attacking the wrong entity.

-Astro

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Originally Posted by rideit

Many would argue that thousands upon thousands of terrorists were trained in the US, by the CIA, for all sorts of operations globally. (Contra's, sandonistas, Afghanis, Saudis, etc)
Should we destroy our own country because of that inconvienent fact as well?

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That may be this adminstration's motivation, we're still trying to figure that part out.

Quote the whole passage. Taking it that out of context you might as well just rearrange the letters to spell what you want it to say

"There was information developed after OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedem) that indicated terrorists were trained at Salman Pak; there was an apparent surge of such reporting. As with past information, however, the reporting is vague and difficult to substantiate . As was the case with the prewar reporting, the postwar sources provided few details, and it is difficult to conclude from their second-hand accounts whether Iraq was training al-Qa'ida members, as opposed to other foreign nationals. Postwar exploitation of Salman Pak has yielded no indications that training of al-Qa'ida linked individuals took place there, and we have no information from detainees on this issue"

At the moment my bitterness is largely driven by the constant drivel that you post here - god bothering, global warming denial, Bush boosting and war chants. When confronted with substantiated evidence you squirm like a five year old kid that needs to take a leak.

As mentioned far earlier history will judge what is being done in Iraq very harshly. Hopefully people who clammered for it like you will recieve the disgust that they deserve from future generations.

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Originally Posted by AstroPax

We put a patrol dog in the face of a (ALLEGED!!!)terrorist, while in the meantime, they cut off heads. Whatever.

I'm sorry, but I think you are attacking the wrong entity.

-Astro

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Oh, the tenents of justice don't apply here as well? You think intelligence is 100% correct, in every instance?
If not, couldn't we simply assasinate Cheney beacause we "assume" he is evil?

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

No, that is not what the quotes said. They said that:

1. There was no evidence that there were non-Iraqis being trained at Salman Pak after 1991.

2. There was no credible evidence that Al-Quida training in Iraq.

3. There was post war information that terrorist training took place at Salman Pak, but due to second-hand information, it was difficult to tell wether the people being trained were Al-Quida or other foreign nationals, and, post war exploration yields no link to Al-Quida.

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Seems like after PNWBrit beat the stuffing out of the straw man you put up, you're left grasping at nothing but straws. As desperate as our current administration.

"Lunch break over" = "Tired, going to bed" = PWN3D

rideit-

i might not say stuff like that on a public forum. with this administration, you could end up in an undisclosed location facing no charges, just imprisonment

-aaron

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Originally Posted by rideit

Actually, that is something Bush actually IS saying, in regards to CIA camps and habeas corpus. For reals.

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For reals?

You know, don't you, that "President Lincoln appropriated powers no previous President had wielded. He used his war powers to proclaim a blockade, suspended the writ of habeas corpus, spent money without congressional authorization, and imprisoned 18,000 suspected Confederate sympathizers without trial. All his actions, although vehemently denounced by the Copperheads, were subsequently upheld by Congress and the Courts."

So, do you think Lincoln was a Fascist?

-Astro

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

But nobody ever won anything playing defense. You have to go on the offensive, if you wait until they attack you, there is a heavy price to pay.

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How did the US win the Cold War? Choose offense or defense.

Was the communist threat successfully contained? Choose yes or no.

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Originally Posted by rideit

Oh, the tenents of justice don't apply here as well? You think intelligence is 100% correct, in every instance?
If not, couldn't we simply assasinate Cheney beacause we "assume" he is evil?

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Look, ASSHOLE, if you are going to quote me, PLEASE don't modify the quote!

Wait, strike the "please" part....re-phrase: DON'T MODIFY THE QUOTE, period!

Are you really THAT desperate?

-Astro

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Quote the whole passage. Taking it that out of context you might as well just rearrange the letters to spell what you want it to say

"There was information developed after OIF (Operation Iraqi Freedem) that indicated terrorists were trained at Salman Pak; there was an apparent surge of such reporting. As with past information, however, the reporting is vague and difficult to substantiate . As was the case with the prewar reporting, the postwar sources provided few details, and it is difficult to conclude from their second-hand accounts whether Iraq was training al-Qa'ida members, as opposed to other foreign nationals. Postwar exploitation of Salman Pak has yielded no indications that training of al-Qa'ida linked individuals took place there, and we have no information from detainees on this issue"

At the moment my bitterness is largely driven by the constant drivel that you post here - god bothering, global warming denial, Bush boosting and war chants. When confronted with substantiated evidence you squirm like a five year old kid that needs to take a leak.

As mentioned far earlier history will judge what is being done in Iraq very harshly. Hopefully people who clammered for it like you will recieve the disgust that they deserve from future generations.

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Just wanted to hang on to this one for you buddy.

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Originally Posted by EZB

How did the US win the Cold War? Choose offense or defense.

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Offensive posturing.

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Originally Posted by EZB

Was the communist threat successfully contained? Choose yes or no.

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Define "contained".

-Astro

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Originally Posted by EZB

How did the US win the Cold War? Choose offense or defense.

Was the communist threat successfully contained? Choose yes or no.

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Offense means different things in different wars. As I recall we deployed the pershing II and were moving forward with SDI. Some would consider that an offensive move in the kind of war we were fighting. That being said, I would hardly equate the threat we face today with the Soviet Union.

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Originally Posted by Tri-Ungulate

"Lunch break over" = "Tired, going to bed" = PWN3D

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Could be, or it could be that I actually have a life outside of the TGR forums.


Peace.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Just wanted to hang on to this one for you buddy.

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always contributing aren't you?

I'm not your buddy.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

it could be that I actually have a life outside of the TGR forums.

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I doubt it, based on the way you're always waxing pedantic on any number of threads. And you couldn't resist that laaast little dribble after slinking off to "go to bed". :rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by AstroPax

Look, ASSHOLE, if you are going to quote me, PLEASE don't modify the quote!

Wait, strike the "please" part....re-phrase: DON'T MODIFY THE QUOTE, period!

Are you really THAT desperate?

-Astro

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I think it was quite obvious by my quotation marks that I had 'modified' your quote...for positive purpose. I would imagine everyone else here understands that I did that quite transparently.
I am not calling you an asshole, BTW, just engaging in political repartee. Please don't blur the line, we live quite close, and would never push the invectives in person. I respect your opinion, so please respond to my comebacks in kind.

And your photos do rock...but that has no bearing on your views in regards to the pathetic captain of our leaky ship that is america.

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Originally Posted by creaker

I guess those thousands of bodies stacked in big holes all over the country were the result of a nation of naturally curious hobbiest chemists.

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Wait, maybe you misunderstood. WMD - weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION. We're not talking about genocide of a few thousand spread across the country here; we're talking weapons that that have long range, widespread destructive capabilities. ICBMs. Multiple nuclear warheads. Infectious diseases capabale of killing thousands of 'infidels' that can be deployed in a country tens of thousands of miles from the origin. You're damn right I'm not talking about poisoning the well of a few villages. Reality is a a beautiful thing...

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Originally Posted by f2f

Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about. But trust me.... You don't. in reality you don't know what you are talking about.

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AND HOW!!! Word my brutha.

Choose offense or defense

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Offense means different things in different wars. As I recall we deployed the pershing II and were moving forward with SDI.

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strategic DEFENSE initiative, thanks.

nate, my earlier post was a well-known intarweb cliche often used to emphasyse zero-sum threads. a bunch of words with nil signal/noise ratio that only insult one side (or both, depending on how you read it) without bringing anything new to the conversation except a vague aura of vailed relation to the subject, vis-a-vis the "I work for" part :)

"I work for Salomon" in the Pow Skis thread would be a very good example of proper usage!

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Originally Posted by f2f

nate, my earlier post was a well-known intarweb cliche

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Unfortunately in this case (as it is in many others, including the debate about global warming of which I actually DO know something about) your cliche was spot on--intended or unintended. Furthermore unfortunately, these people VOTE. Which is scary.

I 'work' for this thread, so I am an authority in saying it will have no bearing at all on world politics. It is a bitch of an employer, all for naught.

f2f-
good point. i thought i might get something intellectually stimulating from this thread, thats why i posted. i was clearly wrong. goodnight

-aaron

i can't vote in this country, but i am of the strong opinion that a three-party system would do good here. after all, a simple general solution for the three-body problem in physics does not exist :)