that is the same AP release that is linked above, by Long Duck Dong.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshP
nothing to see here, move along, move along..... ;)
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that is the same AP release that is linked above, by Long Duck Dong.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshP
nothing to see here, move along, move along..... ;)
Donger: 1 pt.
Josh: 0 pts.
Do'h, guess I should have read the last few posts before I got trigger happy:nonono2:
L7 is my hero.
That rules.
fuck, it actually gets kind of old being on the right side of "I told you so".
And if you think I don't say that with a heavy heart, you are stone wrong.
the tour has played a HUGE part in my life, all the way up to being a spectator, defender, supporter, sponsor, and ersatz tifosi.
This is the FIRST tour I didn't obsess over in TWENTY FUCKIN' YEARS, as it was all too obvious it was a charade. The last seven were a more subtle, better obfuscated charade, but I believed all along that lance had been doing the dirty dance. And he and his crew danced better than anyone!
BUT, fancy dancing is just a bunch of crap, in the end. The music is being faced a little teensy, weensie bit, finally. We all thought after Festina that a purge would occur..but all the Festina incident did was to drive the subterfuge deep, deep into the culture of cat and mouse.
I really don't know how many of you have been repeatedly heartbroken, PERSONALLY, by pernicious pro doping, but I HAVE. Please, I urge y'all...BE skeptical, and not naive in this trying time for pro cycling. To give the benefit of the doubt is to bury your head in the sand. And that same sand could suffocate a marginally popular sport, to say the least.
well, you were wrong about him saying he never doped.Quote:
Originally Posted by rideit
i'd like to know how lance was able to win 7 tours with all the mandatory testing for having the yellow or winning the stage. none of the samples ever tested positive. is that really possible?
Read Burke Swindlehurst's most recent blog entry. He's a local pro that rides for Navigators. Not saying it supports or denies anything at all, but interesting to say the least.
http://t-birdsroost.missingsaddle.com/
That is an interesting read. It also underscores how corrupt the entire sport is--both from the perspective of the riders and the anti-doping agencies. I guarantee you that if the B sample tests positive, Landis will never admit to it--that some conspriacy theory will be brought forth, casting doubt to the legitimacy of the anti-doping agencies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephil
As Long Duck Dong posted earlier, the real losers in all of this are the fans. We support cycling, get fanatical about the Tour, and see its legitimacy and sense of dignity swept under the rug by rampant doping, allegations, crucifixtions, and continual doubt casting (ie., Amstrong's success). All of competitive cycling, from the racers, to the teams, to UCI, and the anti-doping agencies need to take a hard look at what is taking place. The sport is losing its footing, its legitimacy, and if this continues, its fan base. This is just very sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rontele
amen brother.
Yup, I was wrong about that. I had thought that was the case...oh, well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripzalot
As to never testing positive, I truly believe they were just not testing for the 'right' things...
By regularily removing and replacing blood over a period of time a person can avoid spiking the time stamps on blood cells thus avoiding testing positive for blood doping. The test looks at the age of the blood cells. A person should have a fairly uniform range of blood cell ages. If a person removes blood at one point and then puts all of it back in at a later date then the test will show a large spike with blood cells of a certain age. The best way to get around this is to do the multiple removals and replacements. A doctor can ensure that a persons hematocrit and other levels are all below the stated rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripzalot
To do this type of blood doping needs a medical professional with access to expensive transfusion and testing equipment.
This is only one type of cheating. THere are shitloads of other ways to cheat.
Read this too. Very interesting opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripzalot
Possible? Yes. It's a business more than it's a sport.
Is the fox guarding the hen house?
In other words, who is doing the testing, what are they testing for, and who is releasing the results?
If the answer to these questions is the same as who is running the industry, then yes, it is possible.
I make this analogy all the time:
Are there steroids in the NFL? If so, why is no one getting busted?
Does the NFL test NFL players? Is the fox guarding hen house?
why don't you tell me instead of posing rheotical questions? harmp. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by TeleAl
for the record, i'm not defending lance or floyd, i'm just a casual TdF watcher who doesn't know jack shit about the goings on behind the race. i'm not so cynical to proclaim that all cyclists dope, but i would agree that there are probably dopers in every race.
given the number of tests lance has gone through, and none ever tested positive, the probability that he was clean is in his favor. certainly it is still possible that he doped, but that possibility seems rather miniscule. again, i can't be so cynical to cling to that slight possibility and judge him guilty.
plakespear's article was interesting and reflects some of my discontent with the way things are handled. too much premature guilty verdicts and not enough investigation before something is announced.
Completely agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripzalot
In more local news, Le Matin ran these 2 pieces.
Front page:
http://www.lematin.ch/nwmatinhome/nw...body.Image.gif
http://www.lematin.ch/nwmatinhome/nw..._en_jaune.html
And then inside, near the page with the article was this, and I thought,
Hey, Floyd sure does know how to party. Damn boy!!!
http://www.endi.com/XStatic/endi/ima...atv_849813.jpg
I completely understood the higher testo levels.
Maybe the UCI should take my post as advice on how to handle this.:cool:
1234567890
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10643.0.html
Some dude is offering Floyd $100,000 to take a polygraph. Theres no way he'll accept, but its interesting nonetheless.
We should all chip in!
Great Idea!!! Then they can all can the bullshit about how we're all too quick to judge. Polygraph the entire fucking peloton and Lance. The whole sport is turning into a joke. A few poly's would clear the air and give some credibility to the conspiracy theorists if there is any truth to it. C'mon floyd... was it really dehydration? whiskey? of dope?
Any sport with dudes wearing spandex is already a joke
Dude, shut the fuck up. WWF RULEZ!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by whatcomridaz
B results in.
Now the TDF will hand the title over to someone that wasn't tested.
Thats actually the job of the UCI, which says that until he is formally found guilty, or admits guilt, he will remain the TDF Champ. Sounds like it will take a while for Oscar to be crowned, something he apparently doesn't really want.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeleAl
That's what I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by sfotex
Let's not forget about doubles luge!!Quote:
Originally Posted by sfotex
Bump. Article from Velo News where Landis concedes his cycling career may be over. The final quote is really sad.
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/11346.0.html
Quote:
Landis concedes career may be over
By Agence France Presse
This report filed December 16, 2006
American Floyd Landis, who is expected to be stripped of the Tour de France yellow jersey for testing positive after this year's race, said Saturday his cycling career may be practically over.
Landis won the race in spectacular fashion this year to succeed his now-retired compatriot Lance Armstrong, the iconic seven-time winner of the world's biggest bike race.
However days after his triumph it emerged that Landis had tested positive for the banned male sex hormone testosterone after his spectacular victory on stage 17, which resurrected his bid for the yellow jersey.
Landis, who grew up in a strict Mennonite Christian community in Pennsylvania, has always protested his innocence. And while weighing up his future, he told the Belgian press that even if he
is cleared by an American arbitration body early in the new year, he will likely miss the coming season.
"There's a minute chance of me racing again in 2007," the 31-year-old is reported as saying in Belgian dailies Het Laatste Nieuws and Het Gazet van Antwerpen. "Even if I'm not suspended, who will want to sign me?"
Landis's positive test prompted his former team, Phonak, to pull out of cycling. Their place in cycling's Pro Tour series was on Friday awarded to Swedish-Belgian outfit Unibet.
"And if they suspend me for two or four years - a humiliation which I hope doesn't happen - it's over for me." he added. "As things stand now, I don't see myself as a bike racer."
Landis has claimed that inconsistencies by the French laboratory which analyzed his samples led to his positive result.
And he claims he is now fighting for his personal reputation, and not just his career.
"I've never taken testosterone, I would have been stupid to because you just can't get away with it (in doping tests)," he said. "What it comes down to is that I'm being accused of stupidity more than
doping."
If found guilty, Landis would be the first rider in the modern era to be stripped of the Tour de France's yellow jersey. In the event, it will be handed to his former teammate Oscar Pereiro of Spain.
"Even if I'm proved innocent, my reputation is ruined," he lamented.
Ahead of the festive season, Landis - whose father-in-law committed suicide, in still unclear circumstances, not long after the news of his positive test became public - said he wants a simple wish for Christmas.
"To have a day without any worries," he said. "This whole affair has ruined my life. My father-in-law committed suicide. There must be a link to what happened.
He was my best friend and my biggest supporter."
this whole affair leaves me with less and less desire to watch the TDF this year, let alone spend the energy to follow some other races.
At least I can still get stoked about my personal riding goals - since I'm not doping yet and all. :rolleyes:
Agree totally.
(disclaimer: the remainder of this post is from the gut and in no way is a logical argument).
My lack of interest doesn't even really stem from the fact that the riders are doping. It has to do with the fact that it is, IMVHO, entirely possible that Floyd did not take willingly take steroids and was in fact 'set up'. I am not going to try to suggest how he was set up, but I do believe it is possible.
I just have this sense that he is telling the truth. Something about the way he denies it, the words he uses, his demeanor.
It is starting to feel like boxing, where the judges can decide whom they 'want' to win or are paid off to have win.
And, yeah, that interview above with Floyd is sad. Regardless of whether he brought this on himself or was set up, he is clearly in a bad place and I feel for the guy.
Would he really have been that stupid? Was there really much of a benefit to be gained?
I don't know if stupid is the right word. Probably something more along the lines of the lapse in judgment people have when they ski a BC line despite warnings that it could slide.
As for benefit, if you believe that most of the people you are competing with are doping (which they probably are) and the only chance you have is to dope too, the perceived benefits are huge.
Those are both really good points, Dan.
As to the first one, I think that is a valid analogy and don't really have an answer.
As for the second, i am not arguing the benefits of doping. But, more specifically the benefits of taking some testosterone in what would seem to be an effort to recover more quickly. I don't know all the ins and outs of how steroids work, but it sounds like the benefits of shooting up some roids in this situation doesn't make much sense.
To play the devils advocate:
The benefits themselves are obvious... To come back strong after feeling terrible.
What isn't obvious is why would you do such a thing, because if it works you're obviously going to be tested. You'd think this would deter a lot of people, but perhaps not the people who "know" they won't be caught. Could this have been a masking agent that didn't work?
I know you are playing devil's advocate, but I don't that the benefits are obvious, (which is kinda my point), from what I have read, taking a single dose of roids would have little to no effect and wouldn't necessarily lead to floyd coming back strong after a bad day.
Also no reason to think it would offer such an immediate benefit. Drinking 70 litres of water might mind you. The question is does drinking so much water after serious dehydration skew your urine based ratio of hormones?
I'd still say the jury was out there but there doesn't seem to be much jury action here.
Is it official now?
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cyclin...ory?id=3029089
Thursday, September 20, 2007
Landis banned two years for doping, will lose Tour title
Associated Press
PARIS -- Floyd Landis lost his expensive and explosive doping case Thursday when the arbitrators upheld the results of a test that showed the 2006 Tour de France champion used synthetic testosterone to fuel his spectacular comeback victory, The Associated Press has learned. The decision, handed down nearly four months after a bizarre and bitterly fought hearing, leaves Landis with only one more outlet to possibly salvage his title -- an appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
According to documents obtained by AP, and to be made public later Thursday, the vote was 2-1 to uphold the results, with lead arbitrator Patrice Brunet and Richard McLaren in the majority and Christopher Campbell dissenting. The decision means Landis, who repeatedly has denied using performance-enhancing drugs, must forfeit his Tour de France title and is subject to a two-year ban, retroactive to January 30, 2007. If Landis doesn't appeal, he'll be the first person in the 105-year history of the race to lose the title because of a doping offense.
In its 84-page decision, the majority found the initial screening test to measure Landis' testosterone levels -- the testosterone-to-epitestosterone test -- was not done according to World Anti-Doping Agency rules. But the more precise and expensive carbon-isotope ration analysis (IRMS), performed after a positive T-E test is recorded, was accurate, the arbitrators said, meaning "an anti-doping rule violation is established."
"As has been held in several cases, even where the T-E ratio has been held to be unreliable ... the IRMS analysis may still be applied," the majority wrote. "It has also been held that the IRMS analysis may stand alone as the basis" of a positive test for steroids.
The decision comes more than a year after Landis' stunning comeback in Stage 17 of the 2006 Tour, one that many people said couldn't be done without some kind of outside help. Flying to the lead near the start of a grueling Alpine stage, Landis regained nearly eight minutes against the leader, and went on to win the three-week race.
"Well, all I can say is that justice has been done, and that this is what the UCI felt was correct all along," Pat McQuaid, leader of cycling's world governing body, told The Associated Press by telephone. "We now await and see if he does appeal to CAS. "It's not a great surprise considering how events have evolved. He got a highly qualified legal team who tried to baffle everybody with science and public relations. And in the end the facts stood up."
Landis insisted on a public hearing not only to prove his innocence, but to shine a spotlight on USADA and the rules it enforces and also establish a pattern of incompetence at the French lab where his urine was tested. Although the panel rejected Landis' argument of a "conspiracy" at the Chatenay-Malabry lab, it did find areas of concern. They dealt with chain of command in controlling the urine sample, the way the tests were run on the machine, the way the machine was prepared and the "forensic corrections" done on the lab paperwork.
"... the Panel finds that the practises of the Lab in training its employees appears to lack the vigor the Panel would expect in the circumstances given the enormous consequences to athletes" of an adverse analytical finding, the decision said.
The majority repeatedly wrote that any mistakes made at the lab were not enough to dismiss the positive test, but also sent a warning.
"If such practises continue, it may well be that in the future, an error like this could result in the dismissal" of a positive finding by the lab.
In Campbell's opinion, Landis' case should have been one of those cases.
"In many instances, Mr. Landis sustained his burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt," Campbell wrote. "The documents supplied by LNDD are so filled with errors that they do not support an Adverse Analytical Finding. Mr. Landis should be found innocent." And in at least one respect, Landis, who spent an estimated $2 million on his defense, was exonerated because the panel dismissed the T-E test. But in the arbitration process, a procedural flaw in the first test doesn't negate a positive result in follow-up tests.
"An arbitration panel is entitled to rely entirely on the IRMS analysis as an independent and sufficient basis for finding that an anti-doping rule violation has occurred," the decision said.
In his dissent, Campbell latched onto the T-E ratio test, among other things, as proof that the French lab couldn't be trusted.
"Also, the T-E ratio test is acknowledged as a simple test to run. The IRMS test is universally acknowledged as a very complicated test to run, requiring much skill. If the LNDD couldn't get the T-E ratio test right, how can a person have any confidence that LNDD got the much more complicated IRMS test correct?"
it is since i posted another thread about it :tongue:
Lance is STILL fucking dirty.;)
Rideit, dude, you are like a broken record! Seriously, it will never be proven, he will never be stripped of his titles, and it is unlikely that anything substantial will ever happen to discredit him. In short, your assertion will NEVER BE PROVEN CORRECT! :p
Seriously, let it go! ;)
(damn, hope I don't eat crow on this one.)
There, I put in a smiley to show that I am aware that I am being repetitive.
I will say this every time any pro gets busted.
Haven't heard much protestation or comment from ol' Lance on much of this, have we?
Wonder why he is as quiet as a churchmouse?
There is a reason.