NEWS: abortion illegal in SD effective 7/1

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

But that's not going to happen under the current regime.

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I have to disagree. I think there is a good chance Roe vs Wade will be overturned in the next couple of years.



Edit: I forgot to ask; PNWbrit, when do you believe human life begins?

This thread= a reduction of all propositions to their most finite level. A reduction so finite, as to risk being absurd.

5 pages and I'm the first woman to post in this thread?

Sort of astonishing, and yet fairly representative what this debate probably looks like among our elected officials. A bunch of men talking about what women should do in the case of an unwanted and potentially untenable pregnancy.

Don't take that as criticism - I'm actually heartened to see that most men here do in fact support a woman's right to choose. Rather, it's just interesting to see on a micro level what this conversation must look like at the legislative level.

This entire argument also takes for granted that the case would ever reach the Supreme Court. They may see how radical the statute is and determine that it is not even worth it to test Roe. They will just deny cert. Conversely, the conservatives could try to prevent cert. as to deny another case going on the record strengthening the stare decisis effect of Roe.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

But that's not going to happen under the current regime. See assisted suicide, medical marijuana and prescription drugs from Canada

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"regime" ?? Did you win an oscar the other night?

Hey Rontele, back to your diss from page 4. Where does a wannabee lawyer from Chicago who hasn't even made it out of college yet get off calling me a jong. What did you ski 2 days so far this year. I'm sooo impressed with your use of Latin. You're just what the world needs, another self-rightous urban lawyer who skis at Vail 1 week a year.

And to the idiot who thinks we need more taxes, I'm sorry but every dollar you give to the feds is just another dollar wasted. Big Government will not solve your problems.

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Originally Posted by danimal's dead

Hey Rontele, back to your diss from page 4. Where does a wannabee lawyer from Chicago who hasn't even made it out of college yet get off calling me a jong. What did you ski 2 days so far this year. I'm sooo impressed with your use of Latin. You're just what the world needs, another self-rightous urban lawyer who skis at Vail 1 week a year.

And to the idiot who thinks we need more taxes, I'm sorry but every dollar you give to the feds is just another dollar wasted. Big Government will not solve your problems.

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You my friend unfortunately have me pegged wrong. I disagree wholeheartedly that this country could function if we have fifty different foreign policies.

I would reduce myself to sniping back, but I did that earlier. Just remember it is the internet. Do not get your panties all wound up.

PS: I will have forty days of skiing after these two weeks and fifty by the end of the season.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

I know what the talking points are, but they fail to address the real issue; that is, when is that life in the womb a distinct human life and no longer simply a parasitic mass of tissue? Nobody in the mainstream(of either side) is saying that a woman does not have a right to make chioces about her own body. What they are saying is that at some point that mass of tissue becomes a human being and, at that point, the woman's right to choose what is done to her body is superceded by the baby's right to live.

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if its in her body, its her right to decide. Probably the only restriction i could endorse is if the fetus is a viable entity (i.e. if it could survive outside the womb). The whole when is the baby alive argument is hardly the point that everyone makes it out to be. The argument is who's decision should it be. I definitely agree with the position of 'If you are against abortion, don't have one'.

i find it interesting that the same people (right-wing conservatives) that are fighting to keep a woman from terminating a pregnancy are also fighting to keep her from delivering a healthy baby (lack of affordable health care, pre and post natal), keep her from being able to properly raise a child once it is born (lack of affordable day care combined with a pathetic minimum wage), keep her from preventing the pregnancy in the first place (just say no approach to birth control education), and keep the resulting child poor and stupid to continue the cycle (consistent cuts to our education programs).
Perhaps if the conservatives were to better fund child care, health care, education, and availability of birth control education they would see a drop in abortions without reverting to draconian measures.

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Some might argue that the pro choice group is doing the same thing by demanding that everyone agree that the fetus is not a human life until it is born...

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some might, but i would expect that a resonably reflective person would realize that no one is demanding that anyone agree about anything. The point is to protect the minority from the majority. Just because most people believe that a fetus is a human life doesnt mean everyone has to. The only ones who are insisting that the other side conform to their beliefs is the anti-choice. Pro-choice proponents have never said abortion is a good thing, that it is an easy decision for a woman, that it should be a form of birth control, or that everyone should have one regardless of their beliefs. It is the anti-choice groups that are trying to force everyone to follow their personal beliefs.

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I would like to see this issue left up to the individual states to decide. Right now it isn't

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I wouldn't. Just as the individual states could not be trusted to handle civil rights legislation and suffrage in a manner that would equally protect all members of society, they cannot be trusted to handle this issue either.

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Originally Posted by fez

The whole when is the baby alive argument is hardly the point that everyone makes it out to be. The argument is who's decision should it be

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I think you are off here. If life begins at conception, an abortion is a murder and there would be no legal difference between an abortion and drowning your three year old in a bathtub. If life begins at birth then its something very different. A woman can choose to have an abortion like she can choose to shoot her husband with a gun etc etc. That is why the definition of when life begins is so important.

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Originally Posted by Rontele

This thread has become a reductio ad absurdum

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Originally Posted by danimal's dead

Hey Rontele, .... I'm sooo impressed with your use of Latin.

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Chill out! I cracked up when I read it.

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Originally Posted by CUBUCK

I think you are off here. If life begins at conception, an abortion is a murder and there would be no legal difference between an abortion and drowning your three year old in a bathtub. If life begins at birth then its something very different. A woman can choose to have an abortion like she can choose to shoot her husband with a gun etc etc. That is why the definition of when life begins is so important.

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the problem is that the definition of when life begins is a personal/philosophical/religious one. it is not a scientific debate. since there can never be a hard and fast scientific decision in this area, there can be no single definition. as such, the individual has to be given the ability to make their own personal moral decisions in this area.

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/pro.../a357_i_30.jpg

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Originally Posted by watersnowdirt

5 pages and I'm the first woman to post in this thread?

Sort of astonishing, and yet fairly representative what this debate probably looks like among our elected officials. A bunch of men talking about what women should do in the case of an unwanted and potentially untenable pregnancy.

Don't take that as criticism - I'm actually heartened to see that most men here do in fact support a woman's right to choose. Rather, it's just interesting to see on a micro level what this conversation must look like at the legislative level.

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:biggrin: point taken.

summit - so i guess we agree, and are just arguing for the sake of it?

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Originally Posted by marshalolson

summit - so i guess we agree, and are just arguing for the sake of it?

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isn't that what posting in threads like this is all about?

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Edit: I forgot to ask; PNWbrit, when do you believe human life begins?

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A very long time after the happy/tragic/freakish accident of conception takes place.....

24 weeks seems reasonable and is widely accepted by medical associations around the world.

and you?

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

A very long time after the happy/tragic/freakish accident of conception takes place.....

24 weeks seems reasonable and is widely accepted by medical associations around the world.

and you?

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When I blew a load in your Mom, she got pregnant, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's when it all started.

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Originally Posted by Village Idiot

When I blew a load in your Mom, she got pregnant, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's when it all started.

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You might appreciate your mother being talked about in such terms I don't - If I ever have the pleasure of meeting you I'm going to break your nose for that remark.

What do you call an aborted Czech Republic fetus?

A cancelled Czech. That one is BIG in Germany.

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Originally Posted by CUBUCK

What do you mean access to birth control? I'm not sure I ever knew there was a problem. Every convenience store I have ever been in has had condoms at the very least?

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There sure is an access problem! In nursing school, I was responsible to re-vamp the sexual education program in a local school district. It was just a small sampling, but the majority of kids had no idea how to gain access to contraception or how to use it properly.

There's always the school of thought that "Every store has rubbers" and "if you can't afford it, steal one" but it cuts deeper than that. Guys don't/won't wear condoms (I'm certainly not saying this is a majority, just an example), girls have limited access to healthcare/contraception as a minor.

There are wonderful programs out there for people to obtain contraception and family planning services. Problem being, it's so scandalous in our nation to discuss it, especially with a teenager, that those in need aren't getting the resources they need.

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

CUBUCK-

edit- this is clearly already evident as pointed out with respect to the so called morning after pill

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The interesting thing about the morning after pill and the conservative crowds is the misunderstanding on how it works. The morning after pill is NOT the abortion pill. It's purpose is to inhibit ovulation, thus preventing sperm to fertilize the egg. If ovulation has already occured, you're up shit creek without a paddle and then you get into discussion on the abortion pill (RU-486).

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

You might appreciate your mother being talked about in such terms I don't - If I ever have the pleasure of meeting you I'm going to break your nose for that remark.

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I think it's more of a reflection on your Dad.

If we aborted you at say 8 weeks, would you have ever experienced life? I guess my point that life began with a grunt has been proven. Thanks for playing.

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Originally Posted by Village Idiot

I think it's more of a reflection on your Dad.

If we aborted you at say 8 weeks, would you have ever experienced life? I guess my point that life began with a grunt has been proven. Thanks for playing.

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Your so fucking funny - but that nose realignment is a cast iron fucking promise pal..

I survived a partial birth abortion. I then roundhoused the doctor.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Your so fucking funny - but that nose realignment is a cast iron fucking promise pal..

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Get over your little inferiority complex and listen to the facts.


I think your Mom would not approve of you hitting her love. She loves the bend in my penis BTW.


I believe that life begins once the sperm make it around "the bend".

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Originally Posted by fez

i find it interesting that the same people (right-wing conservatives) that are fighting to keep a woman from terminating a pregnancy are also fighting to keep her from delivering a healthy baby (lack of affordable health care, pre and post natal), keep her from being able to properly raise a child once it is born (lack of affordable day care combined with a pathetic minimum wage), keep her from preventing the pregnancy in the first place (just say no approach to birth control education), and keep the resulting child poor and stupid to continue the cycle (consistent cuts to our education programs).
Perhaps if the conservatives were to better fund child care, health care, education, and availability of birth control education they would see a drop in abortions without reverting to draconian measures.

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You hit the nail on the head.

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Originally Posted by fez

if its in her body, its her right to decide. Probably the only restriction i could endorse is if the fetus is a viable entity (i.e. if it could survive outside the womb). The whole when is the baby alive argument is hardly the point that everyone makes it out to be. The argument is who's decision should it be. I definitely agree with the position of 'If you are against abortion, don't have one'.

i find it interesting that the same people (right-wing conservatives) that are fighting to keep a woman from terminating a pregnancy are also fighting to keep her from delivering a healthy baby (lack of affordable health care, pre and post natal), keep her from being able to properly raise a child once it is born (lack of affordable day care combined with a pathetic minimum wage), keep her from preventing the pregnancy in the first place (just say no approach to birth control education), and keep the resulting child poor and stupid to continue the cycle (consistent cuts to our education programs).
Perhaps if the conservatives were to better fund child care, health care, education, and availability of birth control education they would see a drop in abortions without reverting to draconian measures.




some might, but i would expect that a resonably reflective person would realize that no one is demanding that anyone agree about anything. The point is to protect the minority from the majority. Just because most people believe that a fetus is a human life doesnt mean everyone has to. The only ones who are insisting that the other side conform to their beliefs is the anti-choice. Pro-choice proponents have never said abortion is a good thing, that it is an easy decision for a woman, that it should be a form of birth control, or that everyone should have one regardless of their beliefs. It is the anti-choice groups that are trying to force everyone to follow their personal beliefs.




I wouldn't. Just as the individual states could not be trusted to handle civil rights legislation and suffrage in a manner that would equally protect all members of society, they cannot be trusted to handle this issue either.

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Bravo. What a great post.

Crazy stuff. My wife is a pharmacist and she's mentioned on several accounts that other pharmacists won't sell the morning after pill and some often go as far as hiding it from the other staff. Pretty psycho.

A few years ago there was a law pending in CO that had something to do with Hospitals providing incoming rape victims with information regarding abortion. If I remember correctly the law was shot down due to lobbying from Catholic Initiative Hospitals (my primary clients at the time). I was pretty disgusted that people were fighting so vehemently to stop a law that did nothing more than arm rape victims with information.

You'll get people too controlling and crazy on either side of any issue. There was a time when I was younger that I probably would've considered an abortion as a reasonable alternative for the situation of myself and the girl at that age, but now that I have a daughter of my own and am mildly established in life I couldn't imagine a situation for which we'd ever remotely consider an abortion. I'm sure the people making these laws are in a similar place and can't see the plight of other less fortunate or in a tough situation that would only be made worse by bringing an unwanted child into already sketchy scene.

Came across this recently: http://www.womendeservebetter.com/

I can't say this org mirrors my thoughts on every detail of the issue...but it does seem like a different approach than what I've mostly read in this thread...and hear 99% of the time in the "debate". And just maybe, there's a better approach than the one we usually see. For the pro-lifers...if you're really about caring about life, how about putting more energy into caring for the pregnant woman who feels as though she has no other option, rather than just trying to make it illegal? Maybe if you did a better job of providing financial and emotional support during and after her pregnancy for both she and the child, and offering some other options, she wouldn't choose abortion in the first place. For the pro-choicers...you say that you're fighting for the freedom and best interest of women...but is abortion really helping women? If you've spent any time with even a small number of women who have gone through an abortion, it's hardly a choice without significant consequences for years to come, or a choice that brings "freedom".

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Originally Posted by spthomson

Came across this recently: http://www.womendeservebetter.com/

I can't say this org mirrors my thoughts on every detail of the issue...but it does seem like a different approach than what I've mostly read in this thread...and hear 99% of the time in the "debate". And just maybe, there's a better approach than the one we usually see. For the pro-lifers...if you're really about caring about life, how about putting more energy into caring for the pregnant woman who feels as though she has no other option, rather than just trying to make it illegal? Maybe if you did a better job of providing financial and emotional support during and after her pregnancy for both she and the child, and offering some other options, she wouldn't choose abortion in the first place. For the pro-choicers...you say that you're fighting for the freedom and best interest of women...but is abortion really helping women? If you've spent any time with even a small number of women who have gone through an abortion, it's hardly a choice without significant consequences for years to come, or a choice that brings "freedom".

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If a woman is making a decision in regards to pregnancy, she deserves nothing but support, encouragement and unbiased information to make the choice that best suits her, her partner and the surrounding details.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

A very long time after the happy/tragic/freakish accident of conception takes place.....

24 weeks seems reasonable and is widely accepted by medical associations around the world.

and you?

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The presence of brain activity. Which is somewhere around 24 weeks. Amazing, you and I actually agree on something:biggrin:

Our definition of death relies heavily on the lack of brain activity, it only makes sense that the presence of brain activity play heavily into the definition of life. I am swayable on this though. If someone could give me a good argument to define the fetus as a distinct human life even though there were an absence of brain activity, I might be persuaded, but I can't go any later than that.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

The presence of brain activity. Which is somewhere around 24 weeks. Amazing, you and I actually agree on something:biggrin:

Our definition of death relies heavily on the lack of brain activity, it only makes sense that the presence of brain activity play heavily into the definition of life. I am swayable on this though. If someone could give me a good argument to define the fetus as a distinct human life even though there were an absence of brain activity, I might be persuaded, but I can't go any later than that.

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Not to spoil your special moment of agreement ;) but, for the record, brain waves are recorded at 42 days. The heart is beating at 18 days. By 11 weeks, all body systems are present and working. (I still think a different approach is needed in this debate...but I do think these are interesting details).

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Originally Posted by fez

if its in her body, its her right to decide.

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I disagree. If it is a distinct human life, it should be protected by law. I believe that human life begins before viability. As I said in a reply to PNWbrit, some where around 24 weeks.

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i find it interesting that the same people (right-wing conservatives) that are fighting to keep a woman from terminating a pregnancy are also fighting to keep her from delivering a healthy baby (lack of affordable health care, pre and post natal), keep her from being able to properly raise a child once it is born (lack of affordable day care combined with a pathetic minimum wage), keep her from preventing the pregnancy in the first place (just say no approach to birth control education), and keep the resulting child poor and stupid to continue the cycle (consistent cuts to our education programs).
Perhaps if the conservatives were to better fund child care, health care, education, and availability of birth control education they would see a drop in abortions without reverting to draconian measures.

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If you don't see a difference between the abortion debate and the social isssues you listed, then you don't know what you are dealing with in your opposition. Libs tend to look for equality of outcome while the conservitaves tend to look for consistancy in the underlying principles, without regard to the outcome.

The principles underlying the abortion debate concern the protection of innocent life. The social issues you listed are about the role of government and personal responsibility. The two have very little to do with each other in the minds of most conservitives. This difference in visions of how the world should(does, to many) work is at the heart of the differences between conservitives and the libs.

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some might, but i would expect that a resonably reflective person would realize that no one is demanding that anyone agree about anything.

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The only ones who are insisting that the other side conform to their beliefs is the anti-choice.

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It is the anti-choice groups that are trying to force everyone to follow their personal beliefs.

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Actually the pro choicers are demanding that people agree with them that the fetus is not a distinct human life. Either that or they are asking to be able to commit murder and get away with it.

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The point is to protect the minority from the majority.

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The pro lifers would say that the minority that needs protecting is the unborn.

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I wouldn't. Just as the individual states could not be trusted to handle civil rights legislation and suffrage in a manner that would equally protect all members of society, they cannot be trusted to handle this issue either.

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There is certenly no easy resolution to this debate and a *lot* of people are going to be upset no matter what happens. It is going to be very interesting to see how it plays out.

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Originally Posted by Chuck Norris

I survived a partial birth abortion. I then roundhoused the doctor.

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You know...you are just almost funny
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Originally Posted by spthomson

Not to spoil your special moment of agreement ;) but, for the record, brain waves are recorded at 42 days.

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OOOoooo! Damn, you are right! Damn damn damn! That complicates my position. I'm going to have to do some soul searching. But I still can't support an abortion after there is brain activity.

Damnit! Pesky facts! They keep getting in the way of things.:D

Thanks for the info.

I guess you all who want to force women into birthing unwanted children had better be ready to deal with the consequences of abused, neglected, unwanted children who grow into abusive, fucked up adults. Maybe you are, but I'd bet you're not.

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Originally Posted by YetiMan

I guess you all who want to force women into birthing unwanted children had better be ready to deal with the consequences of abused, neglected, unwanted children who grow into abusive, fucked up adults. Maybe you are, but I'd bet you're not.

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I am. Call me sick; but I believe in the need for a social heirarchy. Abusive, fucked up adults have a place in our society. Nobody ever said the world is a pretty place, and trying to manipulate it into such is equally [if not more] devastating than allowing what is natural to occur. I would go so far as to say that widely/freely practiced abortion under the pretense you have noted---- is not much different than Hitler's trying to create the "Master race." :confused:

I was wondering who would bring up the hitler reference first.

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

I was wondering who would bring up the hitler reference first.

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Or Pinochet ;)

The central problem here is that people want moral certainty, and the only way to be 100% morally certain is to be completely absurd.

Absurdity #1:

A woman is in the hospital, holding her newborn baby. A crazy person comes in and shoots the baby dead. Murder.

A woman is in the hospital giving birth. Her water has broken and she is pushing, but the baby's head hasn't crowned yet. A crazy person comes in and shoots her in the abdomen. If you strictly believe that life doesn't begin until birth, you can't say "he shot the baby", you have to say "he terminated the fetus". I think we can agree that this is absurd.

Absurdity #2:

60-80% of fertilized eggs fail to implant in the uterus. If life begins at conception and has all the rights of a newborn baby, this means that women are killing 3-4 babies for every baby born!

The only way to get around this is to outlaw natural conception, and force women to have fertilized eggs implanted by a fertility clinic. Bet that goes over great with the Christian Right! (Unfortunately it doesn't always work, either.)

Let's follow this to the logical conclusion: tampons and petri dishes buried in graveyards, in little coffins, with headstones attached. No? That's silly? But if life begins at conception, why does a blastula deserve any less respect and honor than a newborn child?

Absurdity #3:

I'm quoting this example again. "If a fire breaks out in a fertility clinic and you can only save a petri dish with five blastulae or a two-year old child, which do you save?"

I think we can agree that anyone who saves the petri dishes is a wingnut. Yet if a fertilized egg equals a child, then you *must* save the petri dishes.

Absurdity #4:

A pregnant woman learns that the fetus she carries is anencephalic:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/a...nencephaly.htm

Is carrying to term morally different than abortion, when the child has no brain, no skull, and no chance of living more than a few days?

Conclusion:

Everyone wants to draw a line in time, before which something is clearly not human, and after which it clearly is.

The trouble is, there isn't one.

If you draw the line at conception or at birth, you quickly enter into absurdity. But if you draw the line anywhere else, you don't get any comforting moral certainty. You can always come up with an argument for drawing the line one week earlier or later.

What do we do? Who decides?

I can think of only one solution: the woman decides, because she must live with the consequences of her decision.

^^^ Well put

Nice job spats.