Do you detune? Why or why not?

I never used to do anything but set the edges, de burr and wax seldomly. I met an old WC tuner here and we started talking about tuning and waxing. I started doing what he said he did for a tune and it was a marked improvement over what I had been doing. Basically shape the tip edges from the point of contact out to the tip and tail. Wax often especially at temperature extremes. It makes a difference.

I started experimenting with fatter soft snow skis extending further into the ski and dulling to various degrees. It can really change how a ski feels, positive or negative and it’s totally subjective.


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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS

I demand everyone posting in this thread share a video of them skiing a bumped up run on a moderate pitch black diamond, followed by a video of them skiing a high speed groomer so we can analyze if they are in the top 1% of skiers who need a detune.

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how bout we just post videos of us all fucking your mom ?

Fascinating thread... a couple quick thoughts!

(1) Tuning is a bit more art than science IMO -- or at least about feel -- and not everyone has the same taste. For example, my wife and I like alot of the same music, but I ALWAYS am down for slayer and she NEVER is. That isn't a right or wrong thing, it's a different taste thing.

(2) Skis and how they ride can get radically altered based on their edge prep. from literally unskiable to super hooked up and edgy to super loose and drifty... all while being "tuned". its more a matter of mathcing the style and desired traits to the ski and how they are to be used.

(3) There are lots of elements of tuning -- base structure, wax, edge bevels, polishing, burnishing, etc -- all designed to get the right mix of glide, edge, and slide for a given skier in certain use cases.

(4) There isn't always a "one-setup-per-person" thing. For example, I put more aggressive tunes on my looser powder skis so they are fun getting back to the lift (ie my HB122 is closer to a gs race ski tune since its super rockered and soft and insanely easy to throw sideways anyhow) where the big burly super chargers get more buttered out (ie my personal pair of Fl105 had closer to a park ski tune, since I was mainly skiing them in the moguls and tight trees). On my "high pressure" skis, the snow is often super grabby from high wind, so I don't run those skis as aggressively (ie 2-3 times as many passes with a gummi, more base edge bevel in the transition of the camber pocket to rocker line), as its way easier to hook an edge on that snow. This isn't "detuning", but rather "tuning for conditions" IMO!

(5) All conventional wisdom from every tuning savant I've ever chatted with, is that outside the wide points, they all advocate hand beveling the base edge and rounding the edge outside the widepoints. it makes the skis wildly more predictable in variable/punchy snow. Skis are not able to engage the edge more than 1-2cm past the wide points, but based on how machines work, there is typically very little bevel and a often more stone structure in the base edge out here -- and some times a pretty aggressive hanging burr on skis with full wrap metal edges. This isn't detuning, it is just proper ski prep!

(6) I'd argue that tuning is intentionally getting the right amount of sharpness, bevels, etc in the right areas of your ski for your style and conditions

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Originally Posted by Marshal Olson

I ALWAYS am down for slayer and she NEVER is.

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grounds for divorce.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

A duller edge just means the range of angles where the ski will release is wider. On a smooth, groomed run, it's easy to flatten the ski and release the edge at will. In bumpy unsmooth snow, flattening the ski relative to the snow requires the ski to be at a constantly changing angle. Oftentimes, the tip would need to be at one angle while the tail would need to be at another to be slide-able (which, incidentally, is why torsional stiffness can make a big difference in how a wider ski feels). Since a duller edge broadens the range of angles where the ski will slide, it makes it far easier to drift the ski in dynamic snow.

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Interesting point that I'll chew on. Obviously skiing is all about blended effects but in the broadest sense I have viewed the base-edge angle as the biggest factor for "willingness to hook-up", with side-edge angle being "strength once hooked-up" and sharpness/polish being the "quality (effectiveness?) of the hook-up" so to speak.

In that context, I wager detuning would be more forgiving during an accidental edge engagement in variable snow (after all, that is why I dull the edges on the tips). Given the opportunity and need, I think I would rather have a more forgiving base-edge set at the shop and keep the edges sharp. Ultimately I'd love to have my carving skis set with 0.5°, frontside at 0.7°, all mountain at 1°, and powder skis at (maybe) ~1.5° for this reason.

Understandably, one works with the tools on hand (again, after all, that is effectively why I'm dulling my tips instead of having variable base angles) and the drawbacks to detuning would be less noticeable on a soft-snow oriented ski .

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Originally Posted by toast2266

grounds for divorce.

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Having briefly dated a girl who was like "F yeah slayer"... I think I'm good not being married to one

Yep, polished edges are more important than “sharp” edges.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Olson

Having briefly dated a girl who was like "F yeah slayer"... I think I'm good not being married to one

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Ha! Fair point.

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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS

Where do you ski?

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Why? Wanna have a ski off?

I live in the UP of Michigan. That’s where I ski when I’m not traveling to ski somewhere else. This winter I expect to make it to CO and UT.

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Originally Posted by toast2266

I don't think so. Sticking with this highly imperfect analogy, if you angle a knife so the blade is leading, a sharp knife will be more likely to dig in and catch. A dull knife will be more likely to slide.

Same with a ski. You angle it as you lean. A sharp edge will be more inclined to catch. Which is what you want if you're trying to carve a turn. But it's not what you want if you're trying to smear / slide a turn.

Some skis I mostly want to carve, so I want sharp edges on them. Some skis I mostly want to smear, so I want duller edges on them.

I also have a theory that sharp edges are preferable more often in a continental snowpack, but that's a different can of worms.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

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This is an interesting analogy because the sharper your knife is the more precise you’ll be able to be with your dragging and cutting and feathering that transition. Dull knives are imprecise and even dangerous for that reason.

Also, I haven’t had too many powder days where I don’t find something somewhere that’s been scraped off and I appreciate having a sharp edge, and I also appreciate that edge on groomers back to the lift.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toast2266

A duller edge just means the range of angles where the ski will release is wider. On a smooth, groomed run, it's easy to flatten the ski and release the edge at will. In bumpy unsmooth snow, flattening the ski relative to the snow requires the ski to be at a constantly changing angle. Oftentimes, the tip would need to be at one angle while the tail would need to be at another to be slide-able (which, incidentally, is why torsional stiffness can make a big difference in how a wider ski feels). Since a duller edge broadens the range of angles where the ski will slide, it makes it far easier to drift the ski in dynamic snow.

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Wouldn’t you say it broadens the angles at which a ski will slide, but it reduces the range of sliding available to you? Also, how does ski width factor in here? The range of motion to achieve a higher edge angle on a fat ski is significantly more than on a carving ski, which leads directly to being better able to feather that edge….? No?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS

I demand everyone posting in this thread share a video of them skiing a bumped up run on a moderate pitch black diamond, followed by a video of them skiing a high speed groomer so we can analyze if they are in the top 1% of skiers who need a detune.

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I’m game. Just need somebody to take some video of me skiing. You first how bout?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshal Olson

Fascinating thread... a couple quick thoughts!

(1) Tuning is a bit more art than science IMO -- or at least about feel -- and not everyone has the same taste. For example, my wife and I like alot of the same music, but I ALWAYS am down for slayer and she NEVER is. That isn't a right or wrong thing, it's a different taste thing.

(2) Skis and how they ride can get radically altered based on their edge prep. from literally unskiable to super hooked up and edgy to super loose and drifty... all while being "tuned". its more a matter of mathcing the style and desired traits to the ski and how they are to be used.

(3) There are lots of elements of tuning -- base structure, wax, edge bevels, polishing, burnishing, etc -- all designed to get the right mix of glide, edge, and slide for a given skier in certain use cases.

(4) There isn't always a "one-setup-per-person" thing. For example, I put more aggressive tunes on my looser powder skis so they are fun getting back to the lift (ie my HB122 is closer to a gs race ski tune since its super rockered and soft and insanely easy to throw sideways anyhow) where the big burly super chargers get more buttered out (ie my personal pair of Fl105 had closer to a park ski tune, since I was mainly skiing them in the moguls and tight trees). On my "high pressure" skis, the snow is often super grabby from high wind, so I don't run those skis as aggressively (ie 2-3 times as many passes with a gummi, more base edge bevel in the transition of the camber pocket to rocker line), as its way easier to hook an edge on that snow. This isn't "detuning", but rather "tuning for conditions" IMO!

(5) All conventional wisdom from every tuning savant I've ever chatted with, is that outside the wide points, they all advocate hand beveling the base edge and rounding the edge outside the widepoints. it makes the skis wildly more predictable in variable/punchy snow. Skis are not able to engage the edge more than 1-2cm past the wide points, but based on how machines work, there is typically very little bevel and a often more stone structure in the base edge out here -- and some times a pretty aggressive hanging burr on skis with full wrap metal edges. This isn't detuning, it is just proper ski prep!

(6) I'd argue that tuning is intentionally getting the right amount of sharpness, bevels, etc in the right areas of your ski for your style and conditions

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I guess to be clear, I don’t sharpen past the widest points, but I DO sharpen up to them almost without fail. I don’t think that’s detuning either. In my experience (and I think we generally agree) detuning is dulling the edge from the widest points back toward the middle to some other preferential point, whether that’s “contact point” or something else.

And 100% granted that this is very subjective and I can’t stress enough that I get that it’s driven by preference, but often “subjective” just means “we haven’t really thought it through” and there are reasons behind preferences that are worth talking about if it’s something fun like skiing. Right?? No?

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Originally Posted by Mofro261

Tail riders won't notice a detune.

Centered stance and reverse skis is also less noticeable since one id usually skiing on a shorter effective edge.

Where it is most pronounced is in skiers who really like a forward stance and are actively trying to drive from the tips. Even here one needs a consistent hard surface to get it right. Fully sharp edges in soft snow cause the ski to "peel" and track off line. There is reason the best WC SL skiers come from the east and Midwest while the best speed skiers are generally from mtn west and west coast, snow consistency in the west is hard to come by.

A similar question could be asked:

In what snow and turn shapes does one benefit engaging the very tip and tail of the ski?

A: There is only 1 I can think of, short radius SL skis on hard icy snow. Are you heartcarving?

All other skis gs, sg, dh, are blended bevels at the tip and tail to reduce engagement where it isn't wanted.
Why? Check out a slo mo of a ski flexing at speed. The tips bounce alot and if the tip edge engages , it does not help the skier maintain turn shape but will cause deflection off the desired line. Also large radius turns have a lot more time between turns ergo rapid engagement isn't needed or desirable. Think back to how horrible parabolic skis were.

Most rec skis should not be tuned through the tip, period. I guess if I only skied on ice I'd probably need some SL type skis too.

That you prefer a full tune through the tip and tail just tells us you don't get on fresh snow all that often.

No hate, just truths.

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I don’t think I’m a tail rider, and I certainly am sensitive to detuned skis. I’m pretty shins in tongues, forward stance, and like to mash my tips all over the place. I do tend to use a bit more unweighting than many, and I think this might factor slightly. Could even be me compensating for sharp edges (and that’s the kinda thing I’m trying to drill down on, thanks!).

I certainly don’t have the 80% ratios some of you guys are talking about here. I do get in fresh snow quite often, though, and leftovers/mank/trees most of the rest of my skiing days. Do tell me more about what I’m skiing, though? Would love to show you around my home hill some day, it’s short but we always have a good time. Or maybe we can meet up when I’m out your way and we can heart carve or whatever. ?

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Why? Wanna have a ski off?

I live in the UP of Michigan. That’s where I ski when I’m not traveling to ski somewhere else. This winter I expect to make it to CO and UT.



This is an interesting analogy because the sharper your knife is the more precise you’ll be able to be with your dragging and cutting and feathering that transition. Dull knives are imprecise and even dangerous for that reason.

Also, I haven’t had too many powder days where I don’t find something somewhere that’s been scraped off and I appreciate having a sharp edge, and I also appreciate that edge on groomers back to the lift.



Wouldn’t you say it broadens the angles at which a ski will slide, but it reduces the range of sliding available to you? Also, how does ski width factor in here? The range of motion to achieve a higher edge angle on a fat ski is significantly more than on a carving ski, which leads directly to being better able to feather that edge….? No?



I’m game. Just need somebody to take some video of me skiing. You first how bout?



I guess to be clear, I don’t sharpen past the widest points, but I DO sharpen up to them almost without fail. I don’t think that’s detuning either. In my experience (and I think we generally agree) detuning is dulling the edge from the widest points back toward the middle to some other preferential point, whether that’s “contact point” or something else.

And 100% granted that this is very subjective and I can’t stress enough that I get that it’s driven by preference, but often “subjective” just means “we haven’t really thought it through” and there are reasons behind preferences that are worth talking about if it’s something fun like skiing. Right?? No?

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Lol why is this a competition? You probably have a bigger hawg and ski better than me.

But if you come to Schweitzer I’ll buy you a lift ticket.

Your location is hugely dependent on your tune preferences. I don’t ski much hard snow, seldom ski soft over ice, and most of the snow is wet, high density, and kind of lumpy. I don’t notice tune issues in perfect dry pow or on dry hardpack. I notice it very much on the shit snow I normally ski.

Happy to post a video of me skiing but that was a joke.

My responses to this thread were to try and help you understand why someone might detune due to how they initiate turns and how biomechanics, snow conditions, and terrain might subjectively play in to preferences.

But you’re just being combative for some reason, really not sure why.

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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS

Lol why is this a competition? You probably have a bigger hawg and ski better than me.

But if you come to Schweitzer I’ll buy you a lift ticket.

Your location is hugely dependent on your tune preferences. I don’t ski much hard snow, seldom ski soft over ice, and most of the snow is wet, high density, and kind of lumpy. I don’t notice tune issues in perfect dry pow or on dry hardpack. I notice it very much on the shit snow I normally ski.

Happy to post a video of me skiing but that was a joke.

My responses to this thread were to try and help you understand why someone might detune due to how they initiate turns and how biomechanics, snow conditions, and terrain might subjectively play in to preferences.

But you’re just being combative for some reason, really not sure why.

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I was joking about ski offs and ski videos. I wasn’t sure if you were. Weird how things are perceived, right? And yeah, thanks… what drives somebody to detune is why I started the thread.

In recent years we DO get more warmups than we used to and that makes for some fun coral reefs to navigate in anything that doesn’t see groomers, even when they’re buried below a few inches of snow, which is where I gravitate usually.

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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS

But if you come to Schweitzer I’ll buy you a lift ticket.

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Sweet!
I'm there bro!



PS- you got a surfable couch?

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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS

But you’re just being combative for some reason, really not sure why.

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honestly at this point it just sounds like he’s trying to “prove” why his way is the right way and everyone is just wrong. Keeps saying he wants conversations to learn but everytime someone gives their opinion on why they like something different he just pivots back to why their way doesn’t seem right in his opinion. But hey that’s just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Schweitzer gets a similar to a hair less annual snowfall than we do, but obviously is a much bigger place.

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HaHa! Now you’re just trollin’ homie. This is coming from someone who has spent their fair share of time in Houghton.

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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS

Your location is hugely dependent on your tune preferences. I don’t ski much hard snow, seldom ski soft over ice, and most of the snow is wet, high density, and kind of lumpy. I don’t notice tune issues in perfect dry pow or on dry hardpack. I notice it very much on the shit snow I normally ski.

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I think this an important point that's getting glossed over a bit.

By a show of hands, how many of the people in here that are fans of mostly sharp edges are skiing on the east coast, or in one of the states attached to the 4 corners? How many of the people that are fans of extensive detuning are in pacific states (or inland areas that get wet snow like Schweitzer)?

Every time I go from northwest Montana with it's warm wet snowpack to a place like Colorado, I think to myself "I should sharpen my edges."

Yeah, I guess I’m sorry you’re reading that into my responses. The only push back I really mean to make is in response to (1) I just don’t understand what detuning does or (2) it’s a magical mystery that nobody can explain.

I don’t think this is a right or wrong thing, really… shit, guys, it’s skiing. We ski because it’s fun. I think I might be right FOR ME, but even that isn’t something I’m completely convinced of and I’m wondering if I might be able to smooth out my transitions and better appreciate a solid detune if I could achieve stronger edge pressures. I don’t really think that’s going to be the case FOR ME but it certainly has me thinking through it.

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Originally Posted by One (+) Sentence

HaHa! Now you’re just trollin’ homie. This is coming from someone who has spent their fair share of time in Houghton.

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Yeah not really trying to. Top google hits had Schweitzer at 222 and CH at 270. That CH number is clearly a best case and certainly hasn’t’ been true the last couple years.

Edited to avoid confusion, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Yeah not really trying to. Top google hits had Schweitzer at 222 and CH at 270. That CH number is clearly a best case and certainly hasn’t’ been true the last couple years.

Edited to avoid confusion, I guess.

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Schweitzer averages 350”, last year was terrible and still got 250”

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

(2) it’s a magical mystery that nobody can explain.

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I guess it’s as simple as some people preferring how their skis work when they are detuned to certain point? I try not to trip over other peoples gear preferences.

I know it snows a lot in the UP, but 270” on average is bogus. Bohemia looks to be at about 60” YTD. This resource from Michigan Tech is pretty good. https://www.mtu.edu/alumni/favorites...ily%20snowfall.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Yeah, I guess I’m sorry you’re reading that into my responses. The only push back I really mean to make is in response to (1) I just don’t understand what detuning does or (2) it’s a magical mystery that nobody can explain.

I don’t think this is a right or wrong thing, really… shit, guys, it’s skiing. We ski because it’s fun. I think I might be right FOR ME, but even that isn’t something I’m completely convinced of and I’m wondering if I might be able to smooth out my transitions and better appreciate a solid detune if I could achieve stronger edge pressures. I don’t really think that’s going to be the case FOR ME but it certainly has me thinking through it.

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Maybe try detuning a little and see? And if it doesn’t work, sharpen the edges?

I have $thirtyseven if a ski off ensues.


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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS;

Maybe try detuning a little and see? And if it doesn’t work, sharpen the edges?

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Do you suppose, after all this, I yearn for the effortless release of a detuned ski and just have no idea how to achieve such zen? Also, what I said there was to work on stronger edging for the rest of it to maybe make sense.

The point isn’t really what I do or you do, it’s why and what drives the preference. We’ve got some good thoughts in here. I learned some stuff, at least.

Ok. But have you tried it?

Im still rooting for a ski off.


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Loser has to tune their skis according to the other’s preferences for a year?

You sure you want to ski on detuned edges for the entire season?

Probably best I let you win. Wouldn’t want the thought of you catching an edge and falling off a cliff riding on my conscience.

I’d hate for you to slide off the machine made snow in to a cow pasture, so maybe I let you win.

Those cows will fuck you up.

Does Bushwacka detune?

After he drops and does 20 push ups.

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Originally Posted by chaka

Does Bushwacka detune?

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he's a deburr guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi0B9L2C41Q

When I was a shop rat at the hill I experimented with every whacked tune possible. Riding railed skis was the most fun [emoji16]

With that said I found detuning best. That was the shops mo for all new boards going out the door also.

And Scot Schmidt comes in and I ask him what tune he wants and says "whatever" ...Run whatcha ya brung an learn how to adjust to the nuances, just like the snow conditions. You'll be better.

As a data point, I’ve been skiing some new skis straight from the wrapper mostly out of laziness but given this thread I decided to resist the urge to detune just to see if I was missing something. I’ve gotten 4 days on them now, and feel I can report my findings.

Please note these feelings are subtle and we’re talking about small differences. I have skied “railed” or edge high skis and these feelings I’m describing are magnified 10 - 20x on a ski in that condition.

Ski: 190 Mfree112

Conditions:

Day 1: 5” low density pow over soft base. soft groomers. 27 degree temps

Day 2: 12” high density wind effected upside down snow over very hard icy non-grippy rain crust. 32 degree temps.

Day 3: 2-4” wind blown storm snow over moderate firm but grippy base.
29 degree temps.

Day 4: 6 - 12” medium density pow
over moderate firm but grippy base. 30 degree temps.

Day 1: ski felt grippy on groomers. Occasionally it felt like the tip or tail wanted to engage on a different path than underfoot especially on the uphill ski. off piste the edges released predictably unless I punched through to the base below. In that case the ski wanted to follow its sidecut.

Day 2: Extra pressure was required when making rotary movements to get the ski to release. When in a sideways drift if you found bottom sometimes the ski would “catch”, sometimes not. The underfoot sensation of this I would describe going from slicing tofu with a knife to dragging nails on a chalkboard.

Day 3: when getting off the surf and punching through to the grippy firm snow below, it was a similar sensation - nice drifty turn and then quick catch/hookup on the firm snow below. Nothing unmanageable but had to pay attention and compensate with edge pressure accordingly.

Day 4: medium body snow and high speed skiing in chop. When charging down the fall line and encountering pockets alternating between soft and scraped, a similar sensation of drift to catch (tofu to chalkboard) feeling occurred. Also another time after pointing off a 5-10’ high cliff section on a 40 degree slope in to a steep choppy runout when putting the ski sideways to dump speed on the exit I could feel the edge catch and release. Nothing I couldn’t overcome but not the clean drift the ski is capable of in non-mixed surfaces. Did have one scary moment when I got biased to the uphill inside ski after hitting an unforeseen bump in the fog while skiing fast (welcome to Schweitzer), the tip engaged and had the ski run away a little bit due to sharp edges on grippy firm snow. Was able to reset my weight downhill and get back on track but I don’t think this would have happened if the tip had been detuned.

Summary:

1.) detuning is less about having a particular feel in consistent snow conditions and more about dulling the feedback as snow conditions change turn to turn especially at speed.

2. why you would want the ski to grab on hard snow underneath soft snow I have no idea.

3.) loose edges are less work and more fun for ME in mixed resort conditions when skiing fast.

4.) probably a different thing if you ski slower and just sorta do short swing bounce turns or something.

YMMV

^Nice summary.

The answer is yes. Detune your boards.

Or tune to your preference and intended purpose. I think polishing and dulling edges is part of a tune. Can we talk about sidewall planing now?


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Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Or tune to your preference and intended purpose.

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Agree. I check the tune of everything out of the wrapper, and aggressively dull any part of the edge that isn't going to touch the snow (tips and tails) with a 10" mill bastard file (gummi stones don't cut it). My theory is if I throw a shoe and the ski spears me in the neck, I prefer a shallower wound. Even if the ski is new to me, I've usually done a few laps on a demo pair so I have a good idea of how far if any I want to dull past the contacts using a 100 diamond stone (if the ski felt hooky or stubborn at medium speeds initially I might dull lightly 2-3 inches back).

Then I check base and edge bevels and adjust according to what sort of snow the ski is typically going to used on - under 90mm gets a "race" tune of .75 and 3 degrees, over 100mm gets 1 and 2, over 115mm sometimes 1 and 1. Most of my skis are Blizzards, and the stock nominal bevels (~1 and ~2.8) are pretty agressive on wider skis. On my 97mm and 102mm skis, which most people would call "all-mountain" but really are designed to carve a clean turn, I may do a 3 degree side bevel between the bindings and leave the rest 1 and 2.

Any part of the edge I tune is sharp and smooth - I used to finish with 400 and 600 diamond stones but now I usually finish with the 400 (can't really tell a difference), then a fine gummi. The whole process is time consuming and a pain in the ass, but the results have been to my liking . . .

^^This.

Outbound from contact points gets the 10" bastard file treatment, especially all the way around the shovel to help prevent tip shave, but that is more for ski care than performance. I will do a soft detune of a couple inches from contact points in.

GregL..I am interested on what tools you use to reset edge bevels to whatever degrees your looking for, especially on new skis.

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Originally Posted by Fred Pabst

GregL..I am interested on what tools you use to reset edge bevels to whatever degrees your looking for, especially on new skis.

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I have the full set of SVST side edge bevels (0, 1, 2 and 3 degrees - 0 just gets used to sharpen scrapers) with clamps and a SWIX base edge guide, usually set the bevel with a 100mm panzer file and follow up with 200 and 400 grit diamond stones using plenty of wet lubricant (1:1 water to rubbing alcohol). Base edge bevels are seldom a problem, but I do like to polish to get rid of the circular marks from the factory grinder. If a ski is not flat (not often these days), I take it to the shop and use the Wintersteiger stone grinder.