Sorry, but are you suggesting that residents of Gaza, for example, could relocate to Israeli territory if desired?Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
That’s not my understanding of the situation, but would be happy to be corrected.
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Sorry, but are you suggesting that residents of Gaza, for example, could relocate to Israeli territory if desired?Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
That’s not my understanding of the situation, but would be happy to be corrected.
If Hamas had any brains they would have not brutally murdered people, taken them as prisoners instead, and placed them around Gaza. But Hamas is out for brutality and blood.
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The Hamas attack and Israel's response are going to be the foundation of the next 50 years of conflict in the region. There will be too many people on both sides who lost family and friends to ever achieve a peaceful resolution. I guess an unending supply of angry teenagers is what keeps Hamas relevant and they have no real (i.e., actually achievable) goals beyond that.
Eye for an eye until everybody's blind.
I can't find this being reported anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
Maybe you saw a dodgy twitter feed?
Yes, they could have. On Saturday afternoon Netanyahu reiterated it when he issued that warning, he told them to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
It was on one of the Israeli TV stations and Instagram.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Mmmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
Weird the rest of the world's media hasn't picked it up though.
If true it’ll be on twitter soon, uncensored, so one can get it in their “for you” feed unprompted. Definitely misinfo there, also truly horrifying shitQuote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
Here’s a link to what purports to be the full speech in English:Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10/...ing-to-gazans/
I see no mention of anything but the statement to leave.
And here’s the Wiki section about freedom of movement between Gaza and Israel:
Movement between Gaza and Israel
Gazan residents are only admitted to Israel in exceptional humanitarian cases. Since 2008, they are not allowed to live or stay in Israel because of marriage with an Israeli. Israelis who want to visit their partner in Gaza need permits for a few months, and Israelis can visit their first‐degree relatives in Gaza only in exceptional humanitarian cases.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale...g%20to%20Gaza.
There’s apparently much more freedom of movement to and from the West Bank so that Wiki section is much longer.
But I know Wiki isn’t 100% reliable so again happy to be corrected, but from what I currently know, he told them to leave an area they were restricted from leaving. And families that don’t support Hamas are restricted from emigrating from Gaza.
"Should have left..." well... that goes back to the fact that the Arab world will categorically not accept or integrate Palestinian migrants.
Egypt will not let Gazans migrate, on behalf of their Arab "brothers."
But it is Israel who is blamed by the pro-Hamas narrative as the being the oppressor because they because they won't let Gazans freely roam Israel because when they do terrorism keeps happening.
I guess I’ll point to the sign:Quote:
Originally Posted by summit
I am pointing out that it’s a fucking disastrous situation with no hope in sight.
gravitylover said Gazans were told to leave and free to do so. I’m pointing out that that seems to be incorrect. Israel has good reasons not to allow that freedom of movement.
Edit: I guess I’d also just like to know Netanyahu’s thinking in making that particular statement.
he’s a disingenuous fuck who should have resigned or been in jail years ago. who fkn cares what he thinks. it really doesn’t go beyond killing palestinians to save face for his bloodthirsty coalition and a country in morning. fuck that dinosaur.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
Even if you grant that, putting it aside, who is the statement targeted at? Surely Israeli’s know that Gazans can’t leave, so is it just so that it gets broadcast internationally and people can say ‘hey he told them to get out, but they didn’t, so what can you do?’, or is there another explanation?Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker
Nope not allowed to roam freely but, in very limited numbers and situations they were granted asylum. Over the last 20 years if they wanted out there was an option. Gee, I wonder why nobody wants a bunch of angry people that do little other than hate and foment hate. Now they've proven that they're not much better than animals and these dumb fucks video themselves committing grievous human rights abuses.
Why do I think that’s not an opinion you’ve just formed?Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
Netanyahu didn’t say ‘you should have gotten out sometime in the past 20 years’ in the speech you were referencing.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
Edit: Just a reminder of what you said earlier:
From they could have just walked across the border into Israel to not allowed to roam freely, but granted asylum in very limited numbers and situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
(And from what I can see, the numbers of asylum spots have been extremely limited, like about a couple hundred over a decade. Don’t know how many applied for those spots.)
Recent atrocities are terrible, that said, your post is one of the most racist things that I’ve read on this forum. I’m sure every person, man, woman and child deserves your hatred.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
This thread really highlights how hate, racism and intolerance has infected all segments of society. It’s not limited by race, ideology or religion. Shameful
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- The IDF is issuing specific instructions for 7 areas of the Gaza Strip to evacuate to designated safe areas before the offensive begins
- Hamas said it would execute a captive for each new airstrike without prior warning
- The death toll in Israel now exceeds 1200 including Americans, Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, French, Mexicans, Norwegians, Thais, and people from several other nations
- 108 bodies were discovered in Kibbutz Be’eri: women, children, entire families, 10% of the town’s residents
- The accounts coming out from the music festival are horrific. A remarkable account of survival thanks to clear headed thinking & action in the midst of chaos: https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/sta...24884251803984
- Israel has a small core elite military surrounded by a larger less capable conscript army. It was mostly conscripts guarding Israel's border with Gaza
- Like America & NATO, the Israeli military assumes a technological & informational advantage will assure a quick ‘Decisive Victory'. A long & protracted war might be the unintended result. To contain the conflict Israel needs to conclude their Gaza operation as soon as possible
- The Palestinians are being treated horribly. Israel created an open-air prison in Gaza. They are losing their land, they're being marginalized politically by Israel and the world at large. They're being killed. Nothing but bad options results in atrocities. The main thing folks must contend with however when pleading the Palestinian point of view is Palestinians made their bed on the foundation of 'Israel must be destroyed'
- There's a perversion with what we're seeing: one side cheers, the other watches in horror. The moral universe seems unable to understand this level of ethno-religious hatred. Hamas would if they could ethnically cleanse Israelis and establish a Palestinian state on the current territory of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. It's an explicit and stated goal of Hamas supported by a plurality of Palestinians in Gaza and the West bank
- It looks like the Likud party in Israel did try to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state by subversively supporting Hamas. Benjamin Netanyahu seems to be glorifying in his acts of war as violence. Netanyahu’s politics of division are doing terrible damage to Israel. Hamas is even more of a obscenity for Palestinians. The Israeli victims of the Hamas terrorist attack and the Palestinians who want nothing to do with Hamas and its rule in Gaza suffer accordingly
- A high-level Hamas delegation traveled to Moscow twice last year to meet with Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Sergei Lavrov. Hamas promised Russia that they would "work to weaken the West"
- The United Arab Emirates (UAE) released a statement saying that Hamas attacks “against Israeli towns and villages near the Gaza Strip, including the firing of thousands of rockets at population centers, are a serious and grave escalation.”
I didn't say that it was in that speech.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong
You don't think the way they're treating people is anything other than inhuman? I don't care what anyone looks like and rarely give much weight to their words but when their actions are so outrageous and so disgusting you bet I'm going to call it as I see it. Who the fuck can even consider condoning opening fire on a bunch of kids hiding in a bomb shelter? What about the wheelchair bound Holocaust survivor grandmother that was burned to death in front of her family? These people (?) have had hate drilled into them their entire lives and this gave them the freedom to let it out. If that's racist then so be it. That's right, I ran out of patience for hate, racism and for religious intolerance and will be happy to call it out wherever it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
"- The Palestinians are being treated horribly. Israel created an open-air prison in Gaza. They are losing their land, they're being marginalized politically by Israel and the world at large. They're being killed. Nothing but bad options results in atrocities. The main thing folks must contend with however when pleading the Palestinians point of view is Palestinians made their bed on the foundation of 'Israel must be destroyed'"
The other thing everyone forgets is their esteemed fat fuck, Arafat, and his cronies stole tens of millions every year that was intended to enable the new State to grow and thrive. They continued to fervently support him while he ensured their failure and lived well. That's a big part of what set the stage for the last 25 years of escalation, their aid and assistance never got to the people.
Apologies if I’m misinterpreting you, or putting words in your mouth, but you said he reiterated it again when he gave that warning. That warning was from that speech, and he didn’t reiterate anything in that speech. He just said get out, which they can’t.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
All atrocities are terrible, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
You said that the people of Gaza have proven that they’re not much better than animals. That they only hate and foment hatred. In the context of your posts you’re dehumanizing and entire ethno religious group.
There’s for sure some terrible sick fucks in Gaza but if you dehumanize the whole group you are just perpetuating a problem and fomenting hatred.
I’m shocked by these attacks and nothing justifies them.
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I wonder which billionaire funded this attack?
Look at these losers in the west cheering on the senseless carnage. can they be shamed into oblivion? seems like the least we could ask for.
https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/sta...657673347?s=20
A rally advocating murder and rape, so american.
Jesus. How on earth can anyone celebrate these atrocities. What a bunch of pathetic losers. I’m certainly not pro Israel but Hamas is a vile organization, that has done absolutely nothing to help their own people.Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker
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I don't think decimate means what they think it means.
What, as in the literal historical context?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rideski
Putin?Quote:
Originally Posted by mud
d00d, I must challenge this notion.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn
Let's talk about principles.
Hamas just conducted a military operation designed with the express purpose of attacking defenseless civilians. More, it emphasized torture, kidnapping for future, and prolonged, torture, and wide-spread publication of incredibly barbarous acts from a people not known for civilized restraint.
This is their chosen political path.
No one forced them to do this.
Their principle is on display, and it remains for us to choose whether or not to accept it or oppose it.
REgrettably, there are a bunch of folks here who seem to celebrate these principles. And they'll qualify their position with: mindless slaughter of innocents is acceptable if the other side does it first, or if the alternative is too expensive, or grievances have taken too long to redress, or the victims are of some unfavorable religion, or the victims' sixth-generation ancestors did something, or...
Gradualism pretty much always results from poor moral values.
Do the people of Gaza have legitimate grievances against Israel? Hell yeah.
Israel has transgressed, committed human rights violations, and even war crimes against the people of Gaza. Yeah, there's a lot to criticize about Israel. But this does not challenge one of the most fundamental principle:
In no fucking way do such grievances justify slaughter of innocents.
Israel is gonna have revenge, and the emergency coalition government states that their goal is the total destruction of Hamas, not just a military defeat. This is gonna kill a lot more innocents, and maybe that was a part of Hamas's objective all along, as they may be trying to gain some sort of political advantage here.. But there is a strong ethical difference between specifically targeting the innocent, and hitting them because they're in range of an area target. The latter sucks, but any arguments against it in this context are simply apologies for terrorism and specious as fuck.
This is, of course, assuming Israel actually focuses on Hamas instead of stomping all of Gaza. And this is what will happen- I doubt that Israel loses focus of her principles.
What we're talking about here is war vs. terrorism. They are not the same thing. War is "diplomacy by other means," and it's function is to clarify a power relationship between nations. War is also a resort, and as such, the principle of self-defense is sacrosanct, regardless of the power differential between aggressor and defender.
Hamas, ain't doing this, and can't claim self-defense. The power relationship between Hamas and Israel is unchanged- if anything, Israel has a stronger hand now that moral outrage is in her favor. Hamas never sought to change this. Instead, Hamas's attack is an extreme example of terrorism- an attempt to influence politics or ideology through threats and violence.
No one should have any principled objection to an armed response to terrorism.
Can’t we just drop 1 Billion bombs, designed to diffuse aerosolized Ecstasy, into all of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and Tel Aviv?
I mean, it probably would help.
That’s all I got.
Viva you should probably publish that somewhere. Well stated.
Someone from the bitcoin thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by mud
On a more serious note: this will go on forever. And even people fleeing that crap take their fucked up ideologies with them. Germany has a few problematic criminal families from the Lebanon who fled in the 80s , uneducated refugees who are hard to integrate from the last 10 years.
So it pisses me even more of that none of the rich oil states of the gulf want to help their islamic brethren when they flee but always have a few Million to spare to Support Terrorists or radical mosques and islam further estranging the refugees from the countries that ACTUALLY took them in. Fuck you Saudi Arabia, Quatar, and Iran. And maybe every other idiotic country where they attack embassies because someone torched a book about some islamic gandalf ( yes im talking about the holy Quran) half a world away.
No justification for Hamas or it's barbaric actions from over the weekend coming from me. Where do Sabra and Shatila fit into the above? Eye for an eye until everyone's blind?Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva
Read my next post. I stated that nothing justifies these attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva
Not everyone in Gaza is Hamas. In the context of the quote you responded to I was talking about gravitylover basically calling the people in Gaza little better than animals, that’s dehumanizing and racist. My post was a response to his racist post not the situation over there.
Again I stated more than once that nothing justifies the attacks that started this conflict. Please don’t characterize me as celebrating “these principles”.
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Dehumanizing? Sorry but barbaric isn't strong enough. Fucking children, seniors, handicapped and otherwise totally defenseless people that were, and are still being, abused, raped and slaughtered in ways that are beyond heinous are acts committed by animals devoid of most of the things that make us human. Racist? Is it your family or your people that are the direct targets of a group whose stated objective is to eliminate you? It seems to me that the actions that are following the words are justification for those targets to react as they see fit, not as some person 10k miles away thinks they should.
So you’re saying every person in Gaza is an animal. Got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gravitylover
I never said anything about the response to these attacks. I was responding to your post calling all Palestinians in Gaza animals. Now you’ve made it clear that is your stance, it is dehumanizing and racist.
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Holy crap. The Jews and Arabs are fighting again?
Everyone? Go back through what I've said and you'll see that I keep qualifying it by those whose ACTIONS prove it.