Your Everyday Touring Pack

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Originally Posted by waveshello

Hip belt pockets? Shoulder strap pocket? Or at least an attachment point for a shoulder strap pouch/pocket?

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I have a generous and elastic hip belt pocket on the right side (its amazing how many other packs make hip belt pockets that can't fit a phone), it has a webbing loop to attach a shoulder stap pouch, and I have a glove stash elastic strap on one shoulder strap.

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Wow! Psyched to see these new packs!! Please post them up here when available.

I’ve been using the cirque 30 lt lately and loving it. It definitely shows it’s alpine climbing roots even more so than the 35. No structure to the back panel or waist strap and no zipper access. But it’s great for my use and has worked for more than one overnight. The main feature I want in a ski pack is a dedicated avy tools pocket. I attempt to pack stuff such that what I know I want to get to easily is on the top. Of course my crampons and puffy are always at the bottom and I want to get to them all the time so…maybe my next pack will have back panel access

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Stoked you are excited! The cirque is a great pack. I am excited that I am at the same weight as the Cirque 45 with much more features. My pack has a similar avy tools pocket to that pack except I added direct access to that compartment with a pass through zipper. IMO its a nice in between of a dedicated pocket and something more minimalist like the Cirque. I use a fairly large shovel (BD Evac 7) and it can be taken in and out with ease. One thing I am excited about with my pack is I have a much more secure helmet carry that other packs so I actually put my crampons inside my helmet and its a great space optimization hack when you know your crampons won't fall out.

Have definitely had helmets fall out of pieps helmet holders.

I ordered the cirque 45 at one point and found it like 30% above list weight when it arrived. Returned it.


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Excited to see touring packs go through a similar evolution with cottage companies that backpacking packs have. I love my SWD backpacking pack with thick shoulder straps and ultra fabric.

The one thing I wish more touring packs have is easy access to water, even if it's a small bladder. I use the cirque 22 for resort and short days and love having the running vest pouches in the front.

For longer days I use Patagonia decenstionist. The one thing I like about the sidie zip is a partner can easily grab snacks or other items out of my pack without taking the pack off.

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Originally Posted by Relica

Excited to see touring packs go through a similar evolution with cottage companies that backpacking packs have. I love my SWD backpacking pack with thick shoulder straps and ultra fabric.

The one thing I wish more touring packs have is easy access to water, even if it's a small bladder. I use the cirque 22 for resort and short days and love having the running vest pouches in the front.

For longer days I use Patagonia decenstionist. The one thing I like about the sidie zip is a partner can easily grab snacks or other items out of my pack without taking the pack off.

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I would love those Cirque 22 shoulder straps on any of these 35-40L packs. Those straps are amazing. You can easily carry about 0.7 liters of water in each strap, snacks, lip balm, and stuff gloves (thru shock-corded loops).

If any pack maker could put those on a larger pack, I would love that. Those straps and their carrying capacity essentially obviates the need for taking the backpack off until the top of the climb.

I don't understand why pack makers don't (1) do more with shoulder straps and (2) prioritize easy water drinking in a winter (freezing) environment. A bladder and tube don't work well at 5*F/-15C. Attention to those two items would be big wins.

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Originally Posted by meter-man

I would love those Cirque 22 shoulder straps on any of these 35-40L packs. Those straps are amazing. You can easily carry about 0.7 liters of water in each strap, snacks, lip balm, and stuff gloves (thru shock-corded loops).

If any pack maker could put those on a larger pack, I would love that. Those straps and their carrying capacity essentially obviates the need for taking the backpack off until the top of the climb.

I don't understand why pack makers don't (1) do more with shoulder straps and (2) prioritize easy water drinking in a winter (freezing) environment. A bladder and tube don't work well at 5*F/-15C. Attention to those two items would be big wins.

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https://us.blueice.com/products/firecrest-38-pack

No first hand experience with this pack.

Pretty sure LightRanger just got that pack. Perhaps he will post a review…

While we are on the dream feature train: a zipper near the bottom/side of the main compartment you can use to access/stow your skins or rope without taking your pack off. This is available on the blue ice kume 38 and looks like it’s on the new bca e2 35L.


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Originally Posted by davjr96

https://us.blueice.com/products/firecrest-38-pack

No first hand experience with this pack.

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I skied with a gal wearing this pack this spring--the ski attachment seemed finicky. I also wonder if she was using it correctly.

I purchased a Gregory Targhee FastTrack 35 a couple weeks ago after I decided my old BD daily driver wouldn't make it through another bc season. I thought there was a good chance I'd return it because it looked like it was more for ski mountaineering, which I don't do and because the FastTrack feature looked like it might be a useless gimmick.
I've decided to keep it because it's well made, it fits me very well, and the FT feature will come in handy occasionally. It's bigger than I really need for day tours, but I like to carry enough extra that I can survive an unplanned night out in the winter if need be. I also like extra gloves and more layers than I'll likely need, don't like my pack jam-packed, and like my helmet out of the weather. So 35 liters is a good size for me.
The pack can be reconfigured in a number of ways to make it lighter. Not something I'll use but others might.
Took me a few repetitions to get the skis on and off the pack smoothly without removing the pack, but it works well once l got the hang of it. If I was boot packing for more than a few minutes at a time I'd take off my pack and lash the skis diagonally, as I don't find the FT position especially comfortable. Part of that is I ski 75mm tele bindings and their bulk can find tender spots on my side/back. Part of it is the skis are fully on one side of the pack so not well balanced. But for a few minutes climbing over the last pitch of a cornice or walking a few hundred yards on the top of a south facing ridge in the spring before dropping down to skin again the FT carry should be fine and save a good amount of time.
The only thing I don't like about the pack is that the avi gear pocket and the opening to the main compartment don't come together in a very elegant way. It seems unnecessarily complicated and was a little confusing at first. But that's a relatively minor complaint. Looking forward for the snow to start flying so I can get out and see if this pack works as well as I'm thinking it will.

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Originally Posted by enginerd

Pretty sure LightRanger just got that pack. Perhaps he will post a review…

While we are on the dream feature train: a zipper near the bottom/side of the main compartment you can use to access/stow your skins or rope without taking your pack off. This is available on the blue ice kume 38 and looks like it’s on the new bca e2 35L.


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I run the kume 38 and really like those features for ski mountaineering. it was my day pack 50% of the time last year. always like having some separarion between crampons and rest of kit as im paranoid about poking my puffy. i dont like the way the shovel sits as it ends up forcing a structure to the pack that reduces usable shape (bca shovel blade). for that reason i like avi pockets that are external and big enough for crampons.

as with all things ive never been satisfied with a single pack. really enjoy skimo packs though (i use the UD 18L and 30L for longer days) for most of the uses specified above. crampon/thing garage is just such a useful feature. always been hmg curious though...


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Originally Posted by ktoor

always been hmg curious though...

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I picked up a headwall 55 in the recent factory seconds sale for $150, only way I could justify it. Packing at home it definitely slims down enough for day tours and I am going to try it this season. The annoyance will be accessing the pack when A-Frame carry, but my recent packs have had that issue anyway (BD Cirque, MHW Snoskiwoski). P.S, someone go buy my old pack from Gear Swap ;p

I picked up a mystery ranch saddle peak on here a couple years back and it’s been my resort/slack pack ever since. Great features and Carries the skis well when needed.


https://www.mysteryranch.com/saddle-peak-pack

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Originally Posted by davjr96

I picked up a headwall 55 in the recent factory seconds sale for $150, only way I could justify it. Packing at home it definitely slims down enough for day tours and I am going to try it this season. The annoyance will be accessing the pack when A-Frame carry, but my recent packs have had that issue anyway (BD Cirque, MHW Snoskiwoski). P.S, someone go buy my old pack from Gear Swap ;p

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hmg has seconds sale?! hawt damn. thats the pack ive been eyeing as i like the way the avy pocket is and looks big enough for things like skins/crampons. but reality check is i should not be spending that kind of money on ANOTHER pack... would love a review once youve had a few days on it.


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Originally Posted by ktoor

hmg has seconds sale?! hawt damn. thats the pack ive been eyeing as i like the way the avy pocket is and looks big enough for things like skins/crampons. but reality check is i should not be spending that kind of money on ANOTHER pack... would love a review once youve had a few days on it.


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Yeah they had one a few weeks ago, announced on instagram and email list. Some crazy deals that sold out quickly.

I'm trying to find a reason to NOT buy the BD Cirque 35. Is there anything new coming out that I should be considering?

Things I like:
* Light and simple top loader
* Side access zip
* Dedicated avy tool spot
* Helmet carry and multiple ski carry options
* Hip pocket
* 35 L sweet spot (for me) for day tours and can be cinched down

Regarding the Cirque, I gave it a close look, but drawbacks for me were 1) no separate avy pocket zipper - you need to get into the main section of the pack, and 2) a number of reviews (including from some friends) described the material as pretty damn delicate and I kick the shit out of my gear.

Not sure about new gear; I ended up with a Decensionist 40 that I'm pleased with.

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Originally Posted by waveshello

I skied with a gal wearing this pack this spring--the ski attachment seemed finicky. I also wonder if she was using it correctly.

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Chiming in for a bit after about 20 tours with the 28L version. It's my first small and light pack, and I'm coming from five years with a 45L Ortovox. The pack is surprisingly roomy and fits all the essentials. I just have to be a bit more mindful when packing. A large helmet fits inside but can be felt through the back panel so I use the separate helmet carry net. Shape of the main compartment is good. Side access zipper is a good size for a 1L water bottle etc.

A-carry works just fine, the straps are quite thin and the buckles can need some finessing but are workable with thin spring gloves. Interesting to see how they feel with winter gloves. Haven't bothered with the diagonal carry.

The pack carries loads surprisingly good for it's size and weight. The shoulder straps have a good shape and more surface area than classic designs. I like the bottle pouch for spring gigs. It tolerates some weight as hike-to-ski with +2kg skis, 1,5kg boots and a small dslr in tow were quite fine. Didn't weight the total weight. When skiing the Firecrest stays put better than the Ortovox, even with the same gear in it.

The fabric seem a bit tender and the pack has developed a few small holes from ski edges while carrying.

Wookey backpacks Shovel Pack..
IT's tiny, but enough for shovel, probe, lunch water, Nothing else..

Also a Wookey Sundog
SLightly bigger... fits everything above and some extra clothes..

Burly, bombproof and going on 2 decades of use..

This will be my third season with the Mountain Hardwear Snowskiwoski as my main touring pack when I'm not using an inflatable back and it's pretty good as it comes but I've made some modifications that improve its functionality a lot and were really easy.

The diagonal ski carry that uses the load lifter plastic cam buckle is garbage, if yours hasn't broken yet just cut it off now. I used two small loops of kite-surfing thread through the small g-hook loops in the upper corner on the outside and then threaded a Viole strap through those and then use the lower sling loop it comes with to make a bomber diagonal carry that's fast and preserves access to the side zip.

The top of the pack could be improved significantly if the flap were the other direction (having the storm flap cinch on the outside rather than between my back and the pack) but that's a minor quibble.

I also sewed two small plastic toggles in the upper corners of the inside of bag so that I can hang an accessory pouch there to more easily access smaller things without rummaging in the body of the pack or having to put them in the side pocket (where I keep my skins).

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Originally Posted by ey_allen

I'm trying to find a reason to NOT buy the BD Cirque 35. Is there anything new coming out that I should be considering?

Things I like:
* Light and simple top loader
* Side access zip
* Dedicated avy tool spot
* Helmet carry and multiple ski carry options
* Hip pocket
* 35 L sweet spot (for me) for day tours and can be cinched down

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https://us.blueice.com/products/kume-38l

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Originally Posted by ey_allen

I'm trying to find a reason to NOT buy the BD Cirque 35. Is there anything new coming out that I should be considering?

Things I like:
* Light and simple top loader
* Side access zip
* Dedicated avy tool spot
* Helmet carry and multiple ski carry options
* Hip pocket
* 35 L sweet spot (for me) for day tours and can be cinched down

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I wrote about this farther back in the thread so apologies to those that are re-reading here. I am launching a new pack brand in October, but my pack will be pricier than the Cirque. Here is a sneak peak of why I think I have created a superior product than the Cirque, Snowskioski, Descentionist and Kume 38:
- It is a 42L pack that expands to 50L, but only weighs 1080g and is strippable to 920g. This makes it light enough to use for shorter tours, but large enough to flex up to a hut trip.
- It is more durable. The fabric I am using is 2x more tear resistant than DCF150 (what Hyperlight uses) and 8x more abrasion resistant. The fabric that the Cirque uses is weaker than DCF150.
- Top load access and back panel access.
- It has a lot more features than the Cirque, Decscentionist or Snowskioski such as removable back panel, removable aluminum frame, back panel access ( I think this is superior to side zip), a significantly better helmet carry (so you can trust putting your crampons inside your helmet), ice tool carry that keeps the picks covered, more comfortable shoulder straps, a better diaganonal ski carry than the Cirque, direct access to avy tools from the outside of the pack, big elastic hip belt pocket, ample organization and much more.
- I think I have created the right balance of weight and features to build the fastest pack. I have 2 pockets for stashing skins, snacks, goggles, etc. that don't require a zipper to get into.

The company is focused on building product for the user group that is on here that the bigger brands don't address because the market is too small. I am using the same factories as some of the leading larger brands, but since I don't have 300+ employees I can make product for more niche markets. We are launching with 1 pack this season and have some extremely exciting products in the pipeline for winter 24/25. The company is called Raide (means steep in French). I hope some fellow mags can support the brand so that we can keep making rad gear for the people the big brands overlook.

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Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

https://us.blueice.com/products/kume-38l

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Have you used this one? I was specifically curious about how well it carried skis.

Does anybody ski with an Avalung pack anymore or have they been completely eclipsed by airbags? I know they are no longer made but I'm just curious if some people still use them or if you'll get laughed out of the backcountry these days.

I haven't seen an avalung in years. From everything I've seen they work well in terms of extending your burial time near-indefinitely if you get the mouthpiece in your mouth before being buried. And that is generally only reliable if you're skiing with the mouthpiece in your mouth during your descent, which hardly anyone ever does. Reminds me of this comic: https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1989/12/22

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

Have you used this one? I was specifically curious about how well it carried skis.

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I'm also curious about this pack. There is limited information available online and I can't fondle it in person before ordering. I'm also curious about the helmet carry and the false bottom. In theory I could stick crampons in there, but it seems like it could just be wasted space unless its optional.

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Originally Posted by concierge

I wrote about this farther back in the thread so apologies to those that are re-reading here. I am launching a new pack brand in October, but my pack will be pricier than the Cirque. Here is a sneak peak of why I think I have created a superior product than the Cirque, Snowskioski, Descentionist and Kume 38:
- It is a 42L pack that expands to 50L, but only weighs 1080g and is strippable to 920g. This makes it light enough to use for shorter tours, but large enough to flex up to a hut trip.
- It is more durable. The fabric I am using is 2x more tear resistant than DCF150 (what Hyperlight uses) and 8x more abrasion resistant. The fabric that the Cirque uses is weaker than DCF150.
- Top load access and back panel access.
- It has a lot more features than the Cirque, Decscentionist or Snowskioski such as removable back panel, removable aluminum frame, back panel access ( I think this is superior to side zip), a significantly better helmet carry (so you can trust putting your crampons inside your helmet), ice tool carry that keeps the picks covered, more comfortable shoulder straps, a better diaganonal ski carry than the Cirque, direct access to avy tools from the outside of the pack, big elastic hip belt pocket, ample organization and much more.
- I think I have created the right balance of weight and features to build the fastest pack. I have 2 pockets for stashing skins, snacks, goggles, etc. that don't require a zipper to get into.

The company is focused on building product for the user group that is on here that the bigger brands don't address because the market is too small. I am using the same factories as some of the leading larger brands, but since I don't have 300+ employees I can make product for more niche markets. We are launching with 1 pack this season and have some extremely exciting products in the pipeline for winter 24/25. The company is called Raide (means steep in French). I hope some fellow mags can support the brand so that we can keep making rad gear for the people the big brands overlook.

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I'm always interested in new gear and supporting mags, but not sure if this sounds like the pack for me. Happy to be proven wrong though one you have more details.

Ample organization tends to mean lots of little pockets which always tend to have me looking all over for gear, and back panel access is a non starter. I much prefer the top loader main compartment with little to no additional pockets so I can stuff gear in as I please. Side zip means I can strategically store my water bottle, extra layer, etc. without needing to rummage around too much.

My ideal pack would be a 35L top loaders like the cirque with a size zip, larger hip belt pocket, and some trail running vest style organization on the shoulder straps for snacks, water, etc. Separate avy storage, helmet carry, and decent ski carry and I'm sold.

I've had an avalung built into my bc packs since they first came out. Don't use an airbag because they're heavy and expensive, I choose conservative lines and I ski maritime snow pack. An extra 10 or 15 minutes to get dug out sounds good to me. That being said, I just retired my BD avalung pack i use in the bc, and my new bc pack has no avalung. I have a smaller avalung pack that I use at the resort, where the risk of ending up in a tree well when skiing steep trees in deep snow reminds me to put the mouth piece securely into my mouth before I push off.

If anyone's interested in a thule upslope 35, I'm selling mine.

It's my favorite daypack I've used in terms of features and layout, and the construction is bomber. But it just doesn't fit me quite right, so I'm letting it go. Pm if you're interested and I'll figure out a price.

1. ski carry as a-frame is solid. no issues. diagonal i dont love. ive done the skimo style once or twice but a little bit of rocker in my tails makes sticking a 95mm through the loop annoying. the strap coming out of the shoulder takes some getting used to as well but its removable.

2. helmet carry is not good. without a helmet the holder falls off so you have to stuff it in your pack between laps. i just stick my helmet in the main compartment which does double duty as it gives the top a better seal than the pull cord.

3. the separator thingy is nice and is also completely removable. its just a single layer of material that clips into the inside of the pack. without this and the metal pack frame i think this thing is down to like 900g also. not bad.


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1. ski carry as a-frame is solid. no issues. diagonal i dont love. ive done the skimo style once or twice but a little bit of rocker in my tails makes sticking a 95mm through the loop annoying. the strap coming out of the shoulder takes some getting used to as well but its removable.

2. helmet carry is not good. without a helmet the holder falls off so you have to stuff it in your pack between laps. i just stick my helmet in the main compartment which does double duty as it gives the top a better seal than the pull cord.

3. the separator thingy is nice and is also completely removable. its just a single layer of material that clips into the inside of the pack. without this and the metal pack frame i think this thing is down to like 900g also. not bad.

One day I'll order a pack from Alpine Threadworks.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CjtdOhZD3-W/

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Originally Posted by ey_allen

I'm always interested in new gear and supporting mags, but not sure if this sounds like the pack for me. Happy to be proven wrong though one you have more details.

Ample organization tends to mean lots of little pockets which always tend to have me looking all over for gear, and back panel access is a non starter. I much prefer the top loader main compartment with little to no additional pockets so I can stuff gear in as I please. Side zip means I can strategically store my water bottle, extra layer, etc. without needing to rummage around too much.

My ideal pack would be a 35L top loaders like the cirque with a size zip, larger hip belt pocket, and some trail running vest style organization on the shoulder straps for snacks, water, etc. Separate avy storage, helmet carry, and decent ski carry and I'm sold.

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ey_allen, I appreciate the point of view. The pack is a top loader with a cinch, but accompanied with back panel access as well. The back panel essentially has the same functionality of a side zip when you want quick access to a bottle as long as you put the bottle to the size you zip to, but gives you full access to the pack when you need it and isnt blocked by an A-frame ski carry. In terms of too many pockets there are just 2 small pockets. One on the outside for snacks, etc. and one on the inside foe the small things less frequently accessed like GPS device, repair kit, sandwich, etc.

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Originally Posted by concierge

ey_allen, I appreciate the point of view. The pack is a top loader with a cinch, but accompanied with back panel access as well. The back panel essentially has the same functionality of a side zip when you want quick access to a bottle as long as you put the bottle to the size you zip to, but gives you full access to the pack when you need it and isnt blocked by an A-frame ski carry. In terms of too many pockets there are just 2 small pockets. One on the outside for snacks, etc. and one on the inside foe the small things less frequently accessed like GPS device, repair kit, sandwich, etc.

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Ah alright I misunderstood. Looking forward to more details. Sounds like it could be worth considering.

Guilty as charged on the avalung - and yes I am sure I get laughed out of the bc every day. But just acquired an Alpride bag equipped pack and hoping to transition to that. We'll see how that goes - but I am all for margins of safety where I can get 'em.

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Originally Posted by zion zig zag

Have you used this one? I was specifically curious about how well it carried skis.

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I had a blue ice pack similar to this one, and it did not carry very well

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Originally Posted by rod9301

I had a blue ice pack similar to this one, and it did not carry very well

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

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I skied with some new friends this spring and one gal had the firecrest. The diagonal/side ski attachment seemed fiddly and she was struggling with it during transitions.

I have the Firecrest 28, and have friends with the Firecrest 38. The pack is fine for smaller, lighter loads but it is very floppy and does not carry weight well. The Firecrest 38 for a heavier duty touring pack doesn't make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by concierge

I wrote about this farther back in the thread so apologies to those that are re-reading here. I am launching a new pack brand in October, but my pack will be pricier than the Cirque. Here is a sneak peak of why I think I have created a superior product than the Cirque, Snowskioski, Descentionist and Kume 38:
- It is a 42L pack that expands to 50L, but only weighs 1080g and is strippable to 920g. This makes it light enough to use for shorter tours, but large enough to flex up to a hut trip.
- It is more durable. The fabric I am using is 2x more tear resistant than DCF150 (what Hyperlight uses) and 8x more abrasion resistant. The fabric that the Cirque uses is weaker than DCF150.
- Top load access and back panel access.
- It has a lot more features than the Cirque, Decscentionist or Snowskioski such as removable back panel, removable aluminum frame, back panel access ( I think this is superior to side zip), a significantly better helmet carry (so you can trust putting your crampons inside your helmet), ice tool carry that keeps the picks covered, more comfortable shoulder straps, a better diaganonal ski carry than the Cirque, direct access to avy tools from the outside of the pack, big elastic hip belt pocket, ample organization and much more.
- I think I have created the right balance of weight and features to build the fastest pack. I have 2 pockets for stashing skins, snacks, goggles, etc. that don't require a zipper to get into.

The company is focused on building product for the user group that is on here that the bigger brands don't address because the market is too small. I am using the same factories as some of the leading larger brands, but since I don't have 300+ employees I can make product for more niche markets. We are launching with 1 pack this season and have some extremely exciting products in the pipeline for winter 24/25. The company is called Raide (means steep in French). I hope some fellow mags can support the brand so that we can keep making rad gear for the people the big brands overlook.

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200 ultra? 400? New x version? White or black?
Frame stays seated in the hipbelt?

Very excited about this! A leak would persuade me from staying away from the hmg just saying hehe :fmicon:

ARC Rush 42 bought from the outlet!

I looked at custom-ordering a custom pack from Otter Body/Alpine Threadworks/Alpine Luddites. After I fiddled around with options for a while I realized that the Descensionist was really close to my ideal pack - roll top loader, side zip, external avy tool pocket, A-frame and diagonal carry, hip pockets, light. I'd prefer running-vest style shoulder strap pockets and pick sheaths for axes, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by mr_pretzel

200 ultra? 400? New x version? White or black?
Frame stays seated in the hipbelt?

Very excited about this! A leak would persuade me from staying away from the hmg just saying hehe :fmicon:

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The pack is using the new Ultra400X and is available in White and Black with 2 back panel lengths in each colorway. The frame goes into where the hip pads are sewn into the back panel, but is removable. If I thought HMG was meeting the needs of skiers I wouldn't have put myself through the financial stress of starting a company, but I got to the point where I just had to start developing packs. If you dm me I am happy to share more details if there is any chance you'd be a customer!

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I looked at custom-ordering a custom pack from Otter Body/Alpine Threadworks/Alpine Luddites. After I fiddled around with options for a while I realized that the Descensionist was really close to my ideal pack - roll top loader, side zip, external avy tool pocket, A-frame and diagonal carry, hip pockets, light. I'd prefer running-vest style shoulder strap pockets and pick sheaths for axes, but that's about it.

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I think the Descenionist 40 is a great pack, but I really don't like the ice axe carry and I don't think it is a 40L pack. Maybe it is 40L with the rolltop fully expanded. I personally don't think I could fit all my stuff for a hut trip in there. My pack is 200g lighter and fits all my stuff for a hut trip. I also much prefer back panel access to side zip, but I know that is more personal preference.


For the broader thread, I am surprised how many people are asking for a water bottle holder on the shoulder strap. I love hearing this feedback. It is something I considered and prototyped, but ultimately decided not to do for a few reasons. I could potentially add it back since I already prototyped it. A design philosophy I went with on the pack is being "anti christmas tree" meaning I want the pack to be super clean on the outside and not have things hanging off of it. So I don't have tons of attachment points like other packs have. I dropped the water bottle holder because it added weight for something not 100% necessary, made the pack less clean on the outside and I just don't love having the bulk of a water bottle on my chest on a tour. Hearing how important this is to others definitely makes me rethink that stance.