Wine Geekery

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Originally Posted by BmillsSkier

Fun stuff, Art. Two of my favorite valleys and I'd be curious to know the general thoughts on both bottles given the same year (yes I'm aware of the million other variables before the pedants get in)

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Both were cellared for about 15 years on their side and my plan was to maybe just drink the Clos Pegase with dinner. Once I assessed it, the cork gave me some worry and disintegrated a bit much so I was expecting some vinegary oxidation but it actually opened up really well. Smooth and way more mellow that I expected so it went down during meal prep.

I thought the Clos Pegase would show up the Forgeron but I actually enjoyed the Merlot more which was surprising (I’m not drinking any fucking Merlot!). Fruits, spicy, chewier. Held up against a big hunk of meat really well. There was just enough left when the kiddo whipped up some cookies and last bit of wine with chocolate was perfect.

Hunk of meat for reference

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laguioles, eh?

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

laguioles, eh?

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Spotted the bee I see

Buster, ever crack into any of Andrew Will’s offerings? Now that I’ve marooned myself on his rock, I’m getting into them more.


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Originally Posted by PB

Have to acknowledge that subsequent Cakebread merlots have not come close; must slurp the Pahlmeyer merlot.

Cab: Ridge Monte Bello, pretty much any vintage
Zin: Ridge Geyserville 2009

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Have a couple of these patiently waiting in the cellar, along with a few Lytton Springs Syrah and Monte Bellos.... When we are in the mood for big reds, Ridge is a long time favorite. Attachment 388244

paging neufox47, Buster and other sauternes, dessert wine buffs to the Dentist Wine Hotline... cellaring guidance please for a Huet Cuvee Constance?Attachment 388245

bumping this shit to the top because I need drinks after digesting too many bushleaguewacka posts, and no one answered my cellaring inquiry

Littorai Pinot Noirs are da shizzle.

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Originally Posted by PB

Littorai Pinot Noirs are da shizzle.

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yup.
My mantra: Hirsch, Peay, Occidental/old Kistler, Littorai. In that order.

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Originally Posted by chaka

paging neufox47, Buster and other sauternes, dessert wine buffs to the Dentist Wine Hotline... cellaring guidance please for a Huet Cuvee Constance?Attachment 388245

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Oooo, sorry, missed this.
The pertinent question is how old are you and remember that drinking after 70 should be curtailed.

I haven't had that bottling, but old Foreaus I've had are celestial.

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Originally Posted by chaka

paging neufox47, Buster and other sauternes, dessert wine buffs to the Dentist Wine Hotline... cellaring guidance please for a Huet Cuvee Constance?Attachment 388245

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Sorry mate, looks like an amazing bottle that should age for a while but I don’t know enough to give you guidance on the peak / window.

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Originally Posted by chaka

Have a couple of these patiently waiting in the cellar, along with a few Lytton Springs Syrah and Monte Bellos.... When we are in the mood for big reds, Ridge is a long time favorite. Attachment 388244

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Solid wine there. I love some 10-20 year old petite Syrah. Any time I open PS that is less than 10 I feel like I’m committing vinocide.

Okay I hate to ask this question, but if I wanted to explore middle end wines, where is a good place to start? Assume for the sake of argument that I have a decent understanding of varietals and a basic bitch palate (I like malbecs and zins when I have to drink wine, I also enjoy cab sav). Level of dryness and tannin is no issue, I just want to stick my pinky toe into the world of "real" wine, rather than drinking the $10-20 bottles I would otherwise stick with.

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Originally Posted by neufox47

Solid wine there. I love some 10-20 year old petite Syrah. Any time I open PS that is less than 10 I feel like I’m committing vinocide.

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I think it's called vinfanticide.

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Originally Posted by tgapp

Okay I hate to ask this question, but if I wanted to explore middle end wines, where is a good place to start? Assume for the sake of argument that I have a decent understanding of varietals and a basic bitch palate (I like malbecs and zins when I have to drink wine, I also enjoy cab sav). Level of dryness and tannin is no issue, I just want to stick my pinky toe into the world of "real" wine, rather than drinking the $10-20 bottles I would otherwise stick with.

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I don't know shit about anything but pinot noir and sauternes/barsac with a smiDge of chardonnay, chenin blanc.
And even then, my knowledge is stilted and embittered by the outrageous price increases in red burgundy (French), not to mention pinot in general.

That said I think there's some decent values in Oregon pinot noirs by Patricia Green, Broadley (their estate was always a stalwart value), Bergstrom, Willakenzie.
There's a slew of decent Cali pinots, like above, my favs include Rhys, Rivers Marie, Hirsch, Peay, older Kistlers, Littorai, but you're really talking $60+ for those. Less $ but still good include Failla, Siduri, Patz & Hall,

Frog juice is harder and more erratic. Good years include 1996, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2015.
Still occasionally affordable vintners include Jean Marc Boillot, the cheaper Henri Gouges bottles, the cheaper Frederic Magnien bottles. Jadot makes some good ones as does Faiveley.

French Burgundy is broken down into 4 classes, defined and enforced by the Appelation Controlle Origine (AOC) rules.
Bourgogne
Village
Premier Cru
Grand Cru.

Forget the latter 2, they've gotten too expensive. So now I occasionally buy village or bourgogne from good vintners like any of the Boillots (J-M, Henri or Louis), Geantet-Pansiot, Hudelot-Noillat.. the list goes on...

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Originally Posted by tgapp

Okay I hate to ask this question, but if I wanted to explore middle end wines, where is a good place to start? Assume for the sake of argument that I have a decent understanding of varietals and a basic bitch palate (I like malbecs and zins when I have to drink wine, I also enjoy cab sav). Level of dryness and tannin is no issue, I just want to stick my pinky toe into the world of "real" wine, rather than drinking the $10-20 bottles I would otherwise stick with.

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To be honest -- there's lots of very good (not great) bottles in that 10-20 range.

The best trick I have found is learning to shop the back label for non-domestic wines -- e.g. learn which importers and distributors you like. Each has a palette, approach, specialty that you can learn to rely on and branch out from. Kermit Lynch is perhaps the most iconic. My palette typically enjoys some more off beat stuff from Rosenthal and Louis/Dressner. For values in the austrian/german space -- Skurnik, for value spanish, Eric Solomon. De Masion Selections and Winebow also both have huge books of good wines.

And then there is learning your states local distributors who will also often be on the back -- here in CO for me that is Natural Wine CO and Anvil Wines for top marks.

Finally -- if you find a shop that carries a lot of these importers/distributors -- talking to the folks who buy the wine will almost always net good results. I basically rely holy upon good shop support in buying US products unless I really happen to know the winemaker or operation (which I rarely do because I find I get more for the money elsewhere despite the stupid 3-tier system.)


Or you can just get drunk and do I what do on occassion: buy a case from Kermit Lynch online to resupply.

Hey a thread for my people. I've spent the last 10+ years kind of cycling down busters vinferno here before jumping out of the industry a couple years back. I still wear the "wine technologist" hat from time to time but mostly I'm just a geek now.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

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Currently working our way through a bunch of budget Loire I picked up a month or so back. Last night was this little winner of a VdP Cab Franc. Packed a nice nose with some tannic structure all while staying light and acid- really the style I am enjoying most for reds these days.

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Originally Posted by tgapp

Okay I hate to ask this question, but if I wanted to explore middle end wines, where is a good place to start? Assume for the sake of argument that I have a decent understanding of varietals and a basic bitch palate (I like malbecs and zins when I have to drink wine, I also enjoy cab sav). Level of dryness and tannin is no issue, I just want to stick my pinky toe into the world of "real" wine, rather than drinking the $10-20 bottles I would otherwise stick with.

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tgapp, what wines do you not like? That can help steer the ship as much as your preferences. If you have mostly been enjoying zin, malbecs, and cab (I'm guessing California and Argentina) and you want to push that further I'd suggest one stay in the same ball park of heavier varietals from warmer climates. Those are all typically medium to (very) low acid wines were they are also letting the grapes get really ripe, ie bigger flavors and higher alcohol.

For zin: Ridge is the gold standard, I think the prices have gone up recently but should be a lot available under $50. Biale, also noted upthread, is another benchmark producer. Some other good options from Paso Robles but they are really pushing the limits with the low acid ripeness IMO.
For Malbec: Cahors is a French AOP were they only make Malbec. Less plummy and more firm then Argentina. Fairly inexpensive.
Cab: Go Bordeaux between 20-30. There is a lot to love in this range even for folks who poo-poo on BDX. While there is plenty to enjoy I don't think there is much value for consumers in California cabs these days. I'm sure there is some good stuff that has come online in WA the last 10 years, probably some folks can chime in on that.

IMO the best way to spend $25-30 on red wine is village level cotes du rhone. Few wines in the world offer as much engaging interplay between fruit and non fruit while still delivering the richness and body that modern consumers want than those of the southern rhone. Chateauneuf du pape is the best known and most expensive, quickly followed by gigondas, but the quality coming from rasteau, plan de dieu, sablet, and others is improving so quickly that you're not sacrificing all the much quality or interest by skipping cdp in favor of one of the other villages. '15 and '16 are the vintages to buy if you can find any still hanging around on you local store's shelves.

Be warned tho, do not fall in love with the wines of the northern rhone unless you have a lot of cash to devote to stocking a cellar as the wines are comically expensive, hard to get, and very slow to mature.

CdR and CdP are great ideas for that price range for someone who likes Zin / Malbec / Cabs as well. I'd echo the Cahors comment too, as they make a ton of great, big, winter-food type wines for very reasonable prices.

Similar values to CdR can be found in Rioja, where even a very good bottle from well known produces like La Rioja Alta can be had in the $40 range. Think Rioja / tempranillo is a good step from the above varietals. Priorat is also making a bunch of great wines on the full side that are granacha based like CdR, and like CdR is typically blended although the varietals tend more to Cab Sav and Syrah.

One of the real selling points in rioja is bottle age. There's nowhere else in the wine world that regularly ages the wines for you. If you enjoy the taste of older red wine but don't have a bunch of it in your cellar then you can go to a good shop and find 5-10yo rioja that hasn't been sitting in some shitty warehouse in new jersey but instead resting peacefully in the winery's own cellar. Track down a bottle or 3 from Lopez de Heredia for a taste of the ultimate old school style of aged rioja.

That said, rioja often lacks the richness and density that modern consumers crave. As a result, I encourage folks to consider tempranillo from Ribera del Duero instead as their style is usually more opulent while still retaining that characteristic European dryness on the finish that is all too often lacking in similarly priced reds from California.

I think there is still value in CA cabs, just often not if the labs says Napa. Sonoma, Paso Robles, are also dwindling in value. But I recently had a very good Cabernet Sauvignon from the FairPlay area of the Sierra Foothills.

I’ve bought a bunch of no label wine off De Negoce and been largely happy with them. You have to wait at least 6 months with any of the “futures” wines. Really should wait a year or two minimum most of the time. But some very solid value buys. You wouldn’t want to order a whole case when exploring but some buys in their bottle shop are definitely worth it.

I strongly recommend you take your wife on a trip to wine country and do a bunch of tastings. You won’t get super geographical spread but will learn a lot about your pallet and what you like as long as you go to an area that has diverse offerings.


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Originally Posted by Cruiser

One of the real selling points in rioja is bottle age. There's nowhere else in the wine world that regularly ages the wines for you. If you enjoy the taste of older red wine but don't have a bunch of it in your cellar then you can go to a good shop and find 5-10yo rioja that hasn't been sitting in some shitty warehouse in new jersey but instead resting peacefully in the winery's own cellar. Track down a bottle or 3 from Lopez de Heredia for a taste of the ultimate old school style of aged rioja.

That said, rioja often lacks the richness and density that modern consumers crave. As a result, I encourage folks to consider tempranillo from Ribera del Duero instead as their style is usually more opulent while still retaining that characteristic European dryness on the finish that is all too often lacking in similarly priced reds from California.

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Garagiste has some 2012 Marques de Caceres gran cru rioja for $25 a bottle today. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by neufox47

Garagiste has some 2012 Marques de Caceres gran cru rioja for $25 a bottle today. Thoughts?

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Seemed like a decent buy for that segment, but not a crazy bargain.

But speaking of bargains... how about the melchior of 2018 Chateau Haut Bailly Pessac-Leognan for $4,986.70 up today? Mega cellar flex

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Well fuck… when your industry friend drops by with $500 worth of bottles and gets you drunk on hump day

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Originally Posted by neufox47

Garagiste has some 2012 Marques de Caceres gran cru rioja for $25 a bottle today. Thoughts?

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That one might be a $40 retail under ordinary circumstances. '12 is a neat vintage tho and should be very drinkable today.

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Originally Posted by alpinevibes

Well fuck… when your industry friend drops by with $500 worth of bottles and gets you drunk on hump day

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One of the few places in the world where a rep gets to open bottles like that to taste is the RFV.

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Originally Posted by alpinevibes

Well fuck… when your industry friend drops by with $500 worth of bottles and gets you drunk on hump day

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Fun to see some old friends in that lineup. Have tasted many of those over a bunch of vintages. I have a couple of old bottles of Legaris in my cellar. Perhaps '03 & '04. I drank an '03 a couple years ago and was impressed by how well it'd held up. I actually think I have an '00 Redortier reserve something or other stem there that's prolly well over the hill by now.

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Originally Posted by Cruiser

Fun to see some old friends in that lineup. Have tasted many of those over a bunch of vintages. I have a couple of old bottles of Legaris in my cellar. Perhaps '03 & '04. I drank an '03 a couple years ago and was impressed by how well it'd held up. I actually think I have an '00 Redortier reserve something or other stem there that's prolly well over the hill by now.

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The Legaris was great for the price point, no doubt.

Unfortunately I had to go give blood for a health screen this morning... Really unideal situation for a hangover and fasting.

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Originally Posted by neufox47

Solid wine there. I love some 10-20 year old petite Syrah. Any time I open PS that is less than 10 I feel like I’m committing vinocide.

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yeah... they need a loooong time to open up also.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Oooo, sorry, missed this.
The pertinent question is how old are you and remember that drinking after 70 should be curtailed.

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Thankfully I could age it a couple more decades before running the risk of imbibing too much after 70...

In my experience, old white wine is less palatable for relatively novice drinkers than old red wine. Obviously, being moelleux in style will help as it'll have a good bit of residual sugar but I'd caution you against leaving it down there too long unless you're going to serve to to a bunch of pro cork sniffers cuz the residual sugar may not be enough to engage people after the primary fruit begins to really fade into the background.

In my house we'd plan to open that sort of thing at around 20yo even though it'll last until it's 30+. Fwiw, I've got one lonely bottle of '65 moelleux down in the cellar and can't seem to find an appropriate context in which to open it cuz it'll surely be very very geeky.

Worth remembering that it's not enough for wine to taste interesting. It also needs to taste delicious.

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easy drinking inexpensive bordeaux last night at a restaurant, i need to see what this is going for in stores.

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I’m not usually a Sonoma Pinot fan but this was amazing.

Had some 2015 Gandona Cabernet too and that was one of the best Cabs I’ve ever had.

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Originally Posted by ml242

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easy drinking inexpensive bordeaux last night at a restaurant, i need to see what this is going for in stores.

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Restaurant markup is usually about 4x whereas retail is usually more like 1.5x. So just divide the restaurant wine list price by 4 then multiply that number by 1.5 and that should get you pretty close to what you'd expect to see it going for in a shop.

ok sweet, quebec comes through with the solid french values again. they were charging 64cad and it looks like i’ll spend 30usd in a shop this weekend. i’m not sure if 30 qualifies as a bargain but it was really in my style, lighter and some good fruit.

Of all the regions that have benefited from the warming climate and the ready availability of modern winemaking equipment Bordeaux may have seen the most dramatic rise in overall quality. So many petite chateau used to turn out mediocre, under ripe, horsey reds at least 6 out of 10 vintages. Nowadays the region pumps out clean, drinkable wine even in average quality vintages like that '17. $20 should buy you consistently good Bordeaux these days whereas, by contrast, $20 California red is a minefield of residual sugar and artificial manipulation.

Thanks guys for all the advice. I read it all, but to be honest I'm still a little overwhelmed.

If anyone can tell me "Go to the shitty state run liquor store and spend $50 and find this bottle and drink it and think of _____ (whatever, stone fruit with big tannins and a pleasing mouthfeel) I'll totally do it.

Otherwise, I have a list of words that mean nothing to me. Cahors, Cotes du Rhone, Rioja. Do I just show up and be like "Hey y'all got any of that Rioja?? I want the good stuff." or if I ask for CdR (as the industry insiders know it as), can I say "I'm looking for one of the lower valley CdR, you know, one of the true village wines."

I'm imagining I'll get a lot of blank stares at the Ogden, Utah DABC.

All I got for you is the 10/10 rule a sommelier passed along to me years ago. Never open a bottle that costs more than $10 after 10pm. Now matter how cool you think it is, after a couple of hours of drinking, palettes are shot and no one will appreciate the quality of that $100+ bottle.

Must euro wine is listed by place not by grape. So if you go to your local shop and tell them you want to see the all the rioja (see if they have anything from Lopez de Heredia and buy it immediately if they do) they'll show it to you.

The rhone is the same, just ask and they'll take you there. I would go to your local and tell whoever is there to show you the section of cotes du rhone (do not attempt to use an acronym, ffs). Once there I'd do a 1st sort for 2015 or 2016. After that I'd sort again by village hunting specifically for gigondas, plan de dieu, sablet, rasteau, or vacqueras. Those village names will be prominently listed on the front label. If there's no village on the front label it's cuz there isn't one to list.

I would ask to see the wines from ribera del duero. See if they have the producer valderiz in stock at $30ish in that ribera del duero section but if not just buy whatever for $20-30 cuz they're all pretty plump and modern.

Post what you find and I'll fire you off a reply with generic tasting notes for the region/varietal and some basic food pairing suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Flounder

All I got for you is the 10/10 rule a sommelier passed along to me years ago. Never open a bottle that costs more than $10 after 10pm. Now matter how cool you think it is, after a couple of hours of drinking, palettes are shot and no one will appreciate the quality of that $100+ bottle.

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Yeah I mean, I'm a long term scotch (and whiskey) drinker, a certified BJCP beer judge, and a coffee cupper. I definitely have a basic understanding of how palates work and whenever drinking alcohol I always start with the nicest stuff first, then switch to cocktails or beer or whatever after.

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