Pieps Beacons under fire

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Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

I just got this email:

Hello _______,

Thank you for your email. As a company of skiers, snowboarders, spilt boarders, ice climbers, and alpinists, we share your passion for the backcountry. Your safety is our top priority, and we are committed to addressing any concerns you may have regarding your DSP Pro or DSP Sport transceiver.

We handle every Pieps Beacon inquiry on an individual basis. Please file a warranty claim here so we can process your claim as quickly as possible. If you have any questions in the meantime, please call our product specialists directly at 1-800-775-5552.

For more than 45 years, Pieps has been the worldwide technology leader in avalanche transceivers. Our mission is to bring you state-of-the-art equipment and peace of mind. Thank you for taking us with you on your backcountry adventures and for your continued support.

-Pieps Customer Service Team

North America Pieps Warranty Link: https://warranty.bdel.com/CreateCase/StepOne

Pieps North America

2084 East 3900 South

Salt Lake City, Utah 84124

My Beacon is NOT under warranty, but I'm about to try...

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Same response, just submitted form.

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Originally Posted by 3PinGrin

In response to my own question, I am seeing a 2 year warranty. I don't recall if there was an extension option or if I filed it.

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I can remember how long but seem to remember an extended warranty if you registered it.

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Originally Posted by Eluder

I can remember how long but seem to remember an extended warranty if you registered it.

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I extended, but I bought it Spring of 2015. Will report back the response.

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Originally Posted by Eluder

I can remember how long but seem to remember an extended warranty if you registered it.

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Thanks, trying to figure potential warranty extension part out. For now filed warranty claim, didn't have a photo, but not much to show in a pic anyway.

gonna check both beacons tonight

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Originally Posted by Eluder

I can remember how long but seem to remember an extended warranty if you registered it.

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This is my recollection as well. I registed both my Sport and Pro and was notified of the extention to 5yrs.

I also received the same form email from my inquiry. Now to dig up my receipts, it's going to be close on that 5yr now. New model for old version will work for me if the lock button design issue is resolved.

If you go to https://my.pieps.com/ you can download a warranty certificate that will show if your beacon is under warranty--pretty sure that should suffice (it also shows proof of purchase)

My warranty claim was for a DSP Sport bought from BD Outlet so I think the extended warranty may not have been an option. I only paid $192 new at least, and would be good for her to have a practice beacon anyway. Got this response:
Attachment 344305

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Originally Posted by Skeeze

If you go to https://my.pieps.com/ you can download a warranty certificate that will show if your beacon is under warranty--pretty sure that should suffice (it also shows proof of purchase)

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thanks for that -- looks like i'm sliding up on the date soon: 11/30/2020

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Originally Posted by BCMtnHound

This is my recollection as well. I registed both my Sport and Pro and was notified of the extention to 5yrs.

I also received the same form email from my inquiry. Now to dig up my receipts, it's going to be close on that 5yr now. New model for old version will work for me if the lock button design issue is resolved.

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can confirm its 2 years standard 5 years if you registered it.

So .. this beacon has been used since 2014??
And then all of a sudden in the last year we have 2 notable cases of failure (1 being tree collision) and
NO WIND
and yet the design is somehow flawed?
Surely this had been noticed since it was first bought and sold and not just recently.

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Originally Posted by puregravity

So .. this beacon has been used since 2014??
And then all of a sudden in the last year we have 2 notable cases of failure (1 being tree collision) and
NO WIND
and yet the design is somehow flawed?
Surely this had been noticed since it was first bought and sold and not just recently.

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christina lustenberger cites reports going back to 2017 in her own discussions with people

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Originally Posted by mall walker

link? should I just submit a warranty claim?

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https://www.facebook.com/groups/COBa...00367/?__cft__[0]=AZVSZWGsNMOxIF7CEgeHVETfvhp7EOkBw_0nnJkm-xiQrQAf0wsvBd-N3OhoK2m7Qf0jdc4K3nPCLJZtQ5VvIUz8n72HJ35DfhMr76DfK-JZdKXWQnjgA-xFfu9MkHBvxLGNXKXJniwoAkwmns9JtXIQJ9JZZ1d5wcmQMDvR NiM6zWWrYS_NvX66HFC0wbgmBTVJ8QFucdUlaqLyuxiSJvQr4c vULKadKf3m0-kk3m8CzQ&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

Looks like it'll be a tiered upgrade based on when you bought it or something? Haven't looked at details yet.

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

christina lustenberger cites reports going back to 2017 in her own discussions with people

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How many are they talking about?

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Originally Posted by puregravity

How many are they talking about?

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afaik, not tons, just affirmation that it's not unique
her insta has her thoughts on it: https://www.instagram.com/christinalusti/?hl=en

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

afaik, not tons, just affirmation that it's not unique
her insta has her thoughts on it: https://www.instagram.com/christinalusti/?hl=en

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OK. thanks.

"I was surprised to see my email flooded with similar accounts, even dating back to 2017. "

Ten people? Five people? 20 people? Mostly what year? "even dating back to 2017" does not mean a lot of older incidents, perhaps n = 1 for 2017 and n = 3 for 2018 and then a bunch of "I know someone" emails.

Would be more useful to know what 'flooded' means.
I assume Pieps is well known in Europe and are there many incidents on European ski forums?

Hey guys, just want to mention that across the pond on a British ski forum a bunch of us have our stories/issues with the Pieps transceiver.

Unfortunately as a new user I cannot post the weblink - but it may be worth reading about some of the issues we have found with the transceiver .

If you google "snowheads Issues with Blackdiamond/Pieps transievers" it should be the first hit to the thread, its public.

As puregravity mentions it would be great to get some numbers on actual failures

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Originally Posted by barrcuda

Hey guys, just want to mention that across the pond on a British ski forum a bunch of us have our stories/issues with the Pieps transceiver.

Unfortunately as a new user I cannot post the weblink - but it may be worth reading about some of the issues we have found with the transceiver .

If you google "snowheads Issues with Blackdiamond/Pieps transievers" it should be the first hit to the thread, its public.

As puregravity mentions it would be great to get some numbers on actual failures

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It is going to be hard to intuit numbers from these forums and instagram because some of the commenters on the snowheads thread are also on here.
Christina Lusti should just come out and say exactly how many users have first-hand accounts (i.e. it happened to them).

Even so, I still can't believe this is a big issue given the large (very large) number of Pieps users (it is a very *popular* purchased device) and the time frame that device has been in use.

Interwebs mobs aren't always objective or rational about things. We don't need a social media outrage, we simply need accurate facts.

Curious to see how this impacts the other ski products Black Diamond has like air bag packs, skins, and other avy related items.

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Originally Posted by puregravity

It is going to be hard to intuit numbers from these forums and instagram because some of the commenters on the snowheads thread are also on here.
Christina Lusti should just come out and say exactly how many users have first-hand accounts (i.e. it happened to them).

Even so, I still can't believe this is a big issue given the large (very large) number of Pieps users (it is a very *popular* purchased device) and the time frame that device has been in use.

Interwebs mobs aren't always objective or rational about things. We don't need a social media outrage, we simply need accurate facts.

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I think a lot of people have been a little sketched out by that switch since it was released, it's not a totally new concern. Years ago I was advised not to purchase a DSP because it was too easy to bump between modes, but I got one anyways because I couldn't find any evidence of that occurring in real life and I liked the other features.

Now there are a lot of reports of this happening, anecdotally and officially documented. It's probably rare given the sheer number of these beacons in use, but it's no longer hypothetical.

BD/PIEPS at least thought it was enough of concern to redesign it in their current offerings.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TGR Forums mobile app

Just found this thread. Quoting my post from the other thread:

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Originally Posted by Speedfreak

My DSP sport is brand new (bought in 2019 as a backup and used twice). I can't push the slide from send to search when I'm holding it in my hand. Super solid in that scenario.

However, as soon as I put the DSP in the harness and put the harness on I can slide it with minimal pressure. I don't even have to rub it around like ISBD did. Seems the harness puts just enough pressure on the lock button to unlock the slide. Scary stuff.

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Looks like I'll be filing a warranty claim, but it still falls short of a recall, since more "casual" users of the DSP aren't likely to be following along with the developments. That said, thanks to everyone that is contributing info and getting the word out. The more people that know about this defect the better.

Edit to add:

Looks like someone at Newschoolers created a googe doc to track issues:

https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/t...ps-DSP-Beacons

Here's the text of the NS post:

Hey all, not entirely sure where this tracks just yet, but in an effort to get a consolidated view of just how many devices are affected, I've built this form. If you, or folks you know, have had your DSP Pro or Sport act janky, please log your experience.

https://forms.gle/e98MK2B3n2SQg7yw9

Looks like some people might be contacting BD, but just to see what would happen I responded to the dsp@pieps.com address that was in the IG post and I got a response from someone in Product Service at Pieps GmbH in Austria. They asked for (a) serial number, (b) my address, and (c) if possible, proof of purchase. Pretty easy. I'll update when I hear back about what the "offer" is.

The beacon is a DSP Sport I bought for my gf one year and eleven months ago, so still in the 2-year warranty period. FWIW, I just went to my.pieps.com and was able to register it and activate the 5-year warranty, complete with certificate, not that it matters now.

If it was my own beacon, I'd be more inclined to consider checking it carefully and keep using it and see how this plays out and if I start to feel paranoid when I'm out wearing it, but I don't feel comfortable putting an SO in that situation, so we're jumping ship hard regardless of what the "offer" is.

See the comments on this review video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia82g-fa5k4

their response to another users comments:

"I've used this particular transceiver for several years w/o issue of it switching off or into search mode. I would guess that since you need to press the lock button in order to switch modes that your students did not have it correctly in transmit mode. There is no way to switch modes unless you use another hand to press the lock button first. So I would say that it can be used in a pant pocket just fine, especially if you have a pair of Black Diamond ski pants which incorporate the "Pieps Pocket" which is a build in harness in the pocket of the pants which protects the transceiver quiet well."

and

"We've seen this and have not had any similar results in our testing and have been using this transceiver for years now. If the switch is cracked this would allow it to switch modes easily and should be replaced and also always carry it in the harness with the display facing your body as with any transceiver. Another good option is carrying it in a pant pocket with a clip."


Perhaps that is why this issue has flown under the radar for some time. So many users that have no problem with it, perhaps unaware that other users have in fact had serious problems with it.


Kinda pointless to use something that is already an inconvenience to carry, and now might not in-fact work as designed. However, a quick search of product reviews on retail sites shows that it seems to be very well liked.


This raises questions as to how thorough and objective "pro-reviews" are when they don't actually put the product through the paces that matter, i.e. how well it stands up to abuses. Did Wildsnow review it and come up with any concerns? Did any other pro-reviewers come up with concerns? But there are lots of reviews online by people managing patrol teams etc. with glowing reviews. So I'm curious how this potential defect slipped by the whole community until fatalities happened.

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Originally Posted by puregravity

How many are they talking about?

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20,000 people died and they are still shoving this product down your throat.

Buy a Big Mac.

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Originally Posted by puregravity

So I'm curious how this potential defect slipped by the whole community until fatalities happened.

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I think it's a rare event that could also be explained by ar least two types of user error (failure to turn the beacon on at all or failure to lock the slider into send). If I had found my DSP off at some time I would have assumed I was guilty if one of these things. You almost have to look for the problem to find it.

I don't know how Pieps or other companies test their buttons, but I bet they'll all be revising their protocols now. Same goes for qualified beacon reviewers.

And I think most of the people who are saying they've always been suspicious of the switch are full of shit. If you were suspicious, you why did you buy/keep the beacon? Why didn't you make a stink before a Pro got involved?

It's possible a friend of mine I was touring with experienced the switch-to-off similar to shown in ISBD vid. We were still pretty new to BC when it happened in March of 2017. We beacon checked, skied/rode, he took a couple tumbles and when we got back to car his was off. It was spooky. We attributed it to user error of some part since it was just our 2nd season/maybe 20th day in the bc. Never occurred to us that it potentially due to poor design and that others may have experienced the same thing.

I'd guess there may be similar stories coming out of the woodwork.

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Originally Posted by puregravity

This raises questions as to how thorough and objective "pro-reviews" are when they don't actually put the product through the paces that matter, i.e. how well it stands up to abuses. Did Wildsnow review it and come up with any concerns? Did any other pro-reviewers come up with concerns? But there are lots of reviews online by people managing patrol teams etc. with glowing reviews. So I'm curious how this potential defect slipped by the whole community until fatalities happened.

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I think your questions and general position on the issue is merited, as many people are getting heated on the issue.

However, the assumption that every safety issue is catchable by a short term review (versus the millions of hours of product usage by consumers) seems short sighted.

As this is a life safety issue, we can correlate this to another common consumer safety arena - motor vehicle recalls. Would you have the same doubts and ask the same questions if the issue wasn’t caught by the car company, identified by pro reviewers or where only a few instances of the claimed issue resulted in death or near-death accidents?





Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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Thank you for your inquiry regarding the warranty on your Pieps beacon. We have undertaken an extensive investigation of all Pieps beacon models, which includes subjecting them to our own analysis, testing by an independent third-party, and evaluating them against the beacon market at large. Through this testing, we have concluded that Pieps beacons perform above industry standards, unless the beacon is compromised. Our rigorous testing is a reflection of our commitment to your safety and to ensuring that our customers feel confident in the field.

For users of the DSP Sport and DSP Pro beacons, we will undertake a thorough inspection of your beacon and, regardless of what we conclude, offer you the chance to upgrade your beacon through our tiered trade-in program. Based on the age of your beacon, you will be eligible for either a free or reduced-cost replacement from our current beacon family.

Attached to this email is a pre-paid shipping label for you to send in your beacon for inspection and upgrade. Please clearly label the outside of the return package with RA xxxxx. Once we receive your beacon, we will contact you regarding a replacement. If you have any questions in the meantime, please call our product specialists directly at 800-775-5552. Canadian customers will receive a label in a separate email directly from Fedex. Please remember to check your spam folders.

For more than 45 years, Pieps has been the worldwide technology leader in avalanche transceivers. Our mission is to bring you state-of-the-art equipment and peace of mind. Thank you for taking us with you on your backcountry adventures and for your continued support.



Sincerely,

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Just got this and a return label.

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Originally Posted by Eluder

Just got this and a return label.

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might want to edit out your RA#

Same here. I shipped mine back yesterday...

^ I got the same thing, except “we will send you a free upgrade from our beacon line” instead of “offer you an upgrade”

depending how long it takes I might do them one at a time so I always have a beacon on hand... but it’s gonna be impossible to turn down a free upgrade.

I wonder how it works with the older units. My DSP sport was a 2015 purchase, but hoping full value as it is still actually under warranty at the moment.

I also asked about my older DSP (gray slider) and expressed a lack of confidence in it now that this whole public discussion has emerged -- we'll see what they say; not expecting much there.

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Originally Posted by ::: :::

might want to edit out your RA#

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Thanks, anyone that trys to use my RA# I hope you die.

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Originally Posted by mall walker

^ I got the same thing, except “we will send you a free upgrade from our beacon line” instead of “offer you an upgrade”

depending how long it takes I might do them one at a time so I always have a beacon on hand... but it’s gonna be impossible to turn down a free upgrade.

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I find it interesting there isn't a standard response. It seems like there has been multiple different responses at different steps in the process.

Got the shipping label too for a 2016 beacon purchase, but don't have the extended warranty so probably discounted replacement. Mine was purchased from BD Outlet for a significant discount so that's fine with me, but would like to keep the old beacon too for practice. However, I would be surprised if they ship it back after offering up a different option since the concern would be to get it out of use. I guess depending on what a discounted replacement would cost, might be better just keeping it and finding a deal on other options.

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Originally Posted by Eluder

“We are working on the solution, but right now the data is telling us we don’t have a recallable device according to the standards set for the industry,” explained Dicuollo. “But we’re listening to the community and we know that it’s not necessarily just about data … it also has to do with confidence. We’re interested in the safety of all backcountry skiers and we’re taking it very seriously.”

At least it seems they are listening.

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Jon Dicuollo works for Backbone Media based out of Carbondale. Backbone Media is the PR agency for BD and everything under their umbrella, including Pieps. DiCuollo manages the BD account for Backbone; he is literally doing his job, and a good one at that, to save BD's face.

Be sure to listen to all his commentary at the end after the demonstration, since he adds that he had another DSP beacon -- with the same switch design -- which did not display this behavior:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CGnq_GFjoeD/

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Originally Posted by Eluder

I find it interesting there isn't a standard response. It seems like there has been multiple different responses at different steps in the process.

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I would guess they are updating their response in real time as pressure mounts (just a guess though)

I also received a mailing label. I asked how long it will take and what the "tiered upgrade program" entails. I'm guessing I won't be receiving a new beacon (that won't be free) in time for the start of ski season.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...42#post6104942

from up in the other thread, it takes .0005 of movement to unlock the slider