^^^ Exactly.
Have a safe winter.
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^^^ Exactly.
Have a safe winter.
Come to Jackson and I'll pour you a whole glass of "go fuck yourself" Douche.Quote:
Originally Posted by glademaster
I know that you know that nothing is going to save someone buried that deep.Quote:
Originally Posted by splat
Thoughts going out to him, the families and friends of those lost and to you 2FUNKY. Really, really shitty. Some miraculousnous too however with recoveries of non-beeping folks... man. Good reminder to beep inbounds and think about avi safety even if inbounds. Take care buddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2FUNKY
Not really, it would depend on the type of avalanche and how the debris sets up to allow scent to percolate to the surface but it still would be challenging to pin point them with a dog at that depthQuote:
Originally Posted by old goat
Speaking from personal experience I don't think the you tube comes even close to the gruesomeness of an actual body recovery. I've witnessed my fair share. As far as the monday morning quarterbacking goes, high risk sports involves consequence. The perils and pitfalls of mitigation I thought were addressed well by others in this thread. My girlfriend is fond of saying: " The avalanche doesn't know that you're an expert." Have fun, be careful, use your backcountry strategy when skiing rope drops. The ravages of time will destroy us all. Today is a gift, especially when it involves double figures of snowfall.
You're such a jack ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by glademaster
Thanks G! Last weekend was somber up there with some moments of great joy due to the new snow. Dropped into the top shack to sit and talk with patrol monday. Heavy hearts all around. Things will get better with time.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfromterrace
I'll add my 2 cents here. Not that it will likely help anyone or bring anyone back. But there might be something to learn from this event. I started skiing at Jackass in '71. Which is now a small part of Silver Mtn for those unaware. Still ski there on occasion, on the old chair and Wardner, often chasing storms in from the coast waiting for them to hit Silver. This one certainly makes me rethink that idea now.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember
I also spent ten years and some change working on that mtn, doing everything from running a Cat, throwing bombs, to the hill management. I have never seen Warner slide that big, ever when the area was open to the public. I have seen pictures of Warner Peak and Kellogg Peak sliding from the summit into the town of Wardner with a number of fatalities. All 3500' of the two major slide paths during the late 1880s and early 1900s. So we all knew it had happened. And we knew it could happen again if one was inattentive. It would seem the current and suspect hoar frost layer this year was pretty well known in the Panhandle snowpack. More important to me looking at the cause of these slides was the storm event and resulting wind load.
I've been trying to collect data on this slide that seems to be scarce in detail from my perspective. TGR is the only place I have read that day of the accident was also first day of the season Wardner was open.
For the Pros that do this chit daily it aint rocket science. You dig snow pits for a reason, you bomb , ski cut as required and when it doubt about conditions, specific areas get shut down for 24/48 hrs. Warner being closed after a big storm for 24 to 48 hrs was a common practice back in the day. And people bitched. I suspect there will be a lot less bitching now if that decision is made. Having been there and actually done that in this instance I have a lot of questions about what specifically was done for control work in the 12 hrs prior to this slide.
Truly my heart goes out to the victims, the families and all the Silver's crew that were involved. But I aint swallowing this was a "freak" incident. No question Silver has dangerous terrain. The ski area and that specific run have been open since 1969. 16:1 ( the run that slid ) likely sees more traffic now than it ever has in the past 50 years.
The lessons here are too numerous to list.
But there are lessons, for the skiing public on any mountain with a serious avi hazard, and the mountain's management.
Well put, Dane. I have been involved in emergency services in the past, and had the unfortunate experience of being close to two employee fatalities. Mourning the loss is absolutely acceptable, but so is investigation of decision-making and policy following those incidents.
Chocking things up to bad luck serves the families and loved ones and the rest of us that justify our risks skiing this terrain, but it doesn’t serve anyone going forward when it comes to risk mitigation.
I think if you have a normal burial, with a dog and a well trained companion rescue, the dog will beat the beacon search 95% of the time. Coming from a dog handler and full time ski patroller. Our dogs beat patrollers all the timeQuote:
Originally Posted by splat
Huh. I never would have guessed that. Turns out dogs are awesome in yet another way.Quote:
Originally Posted by haysman16
I'd heard this before (probably from chatting with Alpine Meadows patrollers on the chair over the years). Cool to see it confirmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by haysman16
They are but companion rescue is still the most important skill to save your partner and unfortunately too many people skills in that department aren’t at the level they need to be to start an effective rescue before the dogs and patrollers show upQuote:
Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!
Sure, if the dog and handler are on scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by haysman16
How often is that the case?
That would be a pretty legit experiment to conduct. A well-trained dog versus an experienced human in an avvy field would make for some interesting tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
But my hot take is that while competing in a controlled environment would produce close times, the stress of being in a such a situation gives the dog an edge.
I mean, while a human has a range of emotions to deal with, the only things going through the dog's mind are "Oh boy! Snow and people! I'm excited! What's this- Something to smell? Okay let me follow my nose!".
Most recreational backcountry users tend to overestimate their abilities and skill sets in this area, it takes time and practice to be proficient which few follow up on after their one day classes covering companion rescue instead they seem to argue about shit like which pocket makes them faster. I’ve seen dogs clear a 100m x 100m site with 2 live burials and 3 articles of clothing in less than ten minutes. The people are in holes 2m deep and the clothing articles are used to simulate deeper burials of a person without a transceiver. Good luck to anyone that is fasterQuote:
Originally Posted by S_jenks
Yeah, but how long to get a dog on scene?
Especially in a Backcountry / recreational rescue scenario. It's just body recovery usually at that point.
I was more focused on an in bounds scenario.
There are times where a dog is readily available, and other times when 5-10 minutes may elapse before on scene while a trained professional or 2 may already be on scene.
I have little doubt from my experiences that if a human and a dog at started at the same time the dog will be faster.
Ya for sure the odds of having a dog being close vs someone with a beacon in an inbounds slide scenario is pretty low, but Just like a RECCO, if in the right place/time they are more than just a body recovery tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunion 2020
I'll take dog over Recco every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by haysman16
It depends on the dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowaddict91
I've been on slides where the dog made the find, and quickly. Although, on those there was no recco.
I've been on slides where the dogs couldn't make the find and it was the recco that finally made it.
I'll take the best dog + handler over a recco run by an average tech, but I'll take the best tech with the recco over an average dog.
Good points. I was hoping someone with more experience/perspective than I would chime in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
They haveQuote:
Originally Posted by snowaddict91
Patrol will do a beacon search everytime and will be the first thing they do as part of their immediate search. Even if they are told no one is wearing a beacon.
I know. I was speaking specifically to recco vs. dog. I have used a Recco unit once at a training, vs. working scenarios with dogs (not a handler) so my opinion makes sense in relation to what Bunion posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by snoqpass
Love me some dog, but that little fella ain't getting to me until it's too late in all likelyhood where I ski.
Never knew they were so much faster than a person with a beacon though. That's cool.
I’m not so sure it should be Dog vs Recco, they are two different tools in the toolbox, a dogs goal is to seek out humans preferably live a recco is just a electric device chasing a signal of sortsQuote:
Originally Posted by snowaddict91
Has there been a report released for this yet?
There are some details on CAIC report but it is just preliminary. I do not expect a full report to end up being published since it happened within a private ski area. The Taos avalanche from last year has even less information on the CAIC report.
https://avalanche.state.co.us/caic/a...=731&accfm=rep