"All weather" tires in place of winter tires

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Originally Posted by gramboh

These Goodyears are appealing to me given 90% of my winter driving is on dry/wet pavement (Vancouver, BC with frequent trips to Whistler). My General Altimax Arctics are on their last legs with maybe 5-6mm depth but it's their 7th winter. They have served me well.

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I've got somewhere around 28,000 miles on the Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice (including all last summer) and they have worn very evenly and still drive bare pavement better than quality all season radials and still offer a huge advantage on snow and ice (even well worn). A studded tire would be junk by now. I generally shop at the higher price points for tires but these have been a very pleasant surprise at a low price point. Perfect for a skier in a maritime climate. Also, I wouldn't hesitate to use them in a climate that had persistent snow and ice all winter because they offer so much traction on pure ice and compact snow/ice that I'm not worried about the little bit they give up to the most winter focused winter tires. It's worth it for the "normal" feel they give on bare pavement and their exceptional grip in cold rain (yes, compared to other top winter tires). I like to rail the cold wet corners pretty hard and these tires feel like the right tool for the job. Also, about as quiet as your average all-season radial. There's not a lot not to like.

I use a Mazda CX-5 as my ski car and these tires retain the crisp handling (for a SUV) of my car. This is an advantage on freeways with potential ice because the lack of tread squirm allows a better road feel. I can tell when I'm near the limits of traction by the steering feedback. Previous winter tires had a vague steering feel that tended to mask the early signs of a tire that's not in good contact with the road, having such direct feedback is a real benefit to being able to manage your speed sooner, rather than later.

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Originally Posted by muted

It's not for just racers, it's for people who encounter ice A LOT in colder, windy, frigid climates.

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Studs are also a good idea for drivers lacking in winter driving skills and young/beginning drivers. But the studs have to be kept in good shape to be of ANY benefit. I'm not against studs, it's just that I feel totally comfortable driving icy roads on studless winter tires.

I did have a white knuckle commute through 700 miles of glaze ice (Eastern Montana, South Dakota, Minnesota) in January 2010 while towing an empty horse trailer behind an F-150. Semi trucks were doing 30 mph on the flat Interstate! My F-150 had crappy A/T tires and the trailer had all-season radials. Don't let anyone tell you A/T tires are a good substitute for real winter tires! I would have sold my left nut for some real winter tires. But, no, I've never had a white knuckle drive with studless winter tires in the last 10 or 15 years. That's how good winter tires have become on icy roads.

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Originally Posted by sierraskier

Please go buy some all seasons so it will start snowing.

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You got some summer tires I can borrow? 235/45/17 (or 225/45/17). That should do it.

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Originally Posted by AweShuksan

Studs are also a good idea for drivers lacking in winter driving skills and young/beginning drivers. But the studs have to be kept in good shape to be of ANY benefit. I'm not against studs, it's just that I feel totally comfortable driving icy roads on studless winter tires.

I did have a white knuckle commute through 700 miles of glaze ice (Eastern Montana, South Dakota, Minnesota) in January 2010 while towing an empty horse trailer behind an F-150. Semi trucks were doing 30 mph on the flat Interstate! My F-150 had crappy A/T tires and the trailer had all-season radials. Don't let anyone tell you A/T tires are a good substitute for real winter tires! I would have sold my left nut for some real winter tires. But, no, I've never had a white knuckle drive with studless winter tires in the last 10 or 15 years. That's how good winter tires have become on icy roads.

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Next you're going to tell us 120 fat skis are unnecessary if you are actually a good skier. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by muted

Next you're going to tell us 120 fat skis are unnecessary if you are actually a good skier. :rolleyes:

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Unnecessary.... :P

"Why do you have those big long wide skis? if you ski real slow and careful, there's no need!"

This whole "what's good enough" discussion is basically one of risk tolerance. I absolutely loved my Hakka R2's and if nothing "better" existed, I'd be fine. My sense is that the Hakka 9's (studded) are marginally better on ice although I can't prove it.

How much do you value marginal improvements when sheet metal (and more importantly your life) is at stake?

At the beginning of my second year on my Hakkas (maybe 6k miles on them), I was in a moving parking lot on I-70 around Evergreen and the road was a sheet of ice. We were moving at about 5mph, and my car (4wd Outback) began to lose the tail - sliding left - following the crown in the road. I gunned it gently and barely brought it under control before its tail fell into the adjacent lane.

Would an incremental improvement in ice traction (studs) have helped? Beats me, but I'm going to buy the "insurance".

... Thom

I've noticed that up here in the narth with 5 months of winter even people one would label as clueless looking ... will run studs

you can check out 15 yr old Sunfires at the mall and they are running studded tires worth more than the car

How much is yer life worth?

You should see the folks in my burb tool around on studded tires 60+ miles from passes that get snow part of the winter. Lot of suburbans equipped out for maybe 1-5 days a year of use or that one week in sunriver. The rest of the time they're just crop dusting on dry/wet pavement. studded tires do have their place if you actually live at elevation, or get after it a lot.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I've noticed that up here in the narth with 5 months of winter even people one would label as clueless looking ... will run studs

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They might not be clueless, maybe they just don't know any better.

It wasn't that long ago that studs were the only thing that worked on ice. Now we have better solutions but old habits die hard.

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Originally Posted by markcjr

I think I have posted in this thread but Nokian rotiiva AT plus tires are amazing for 3 season Plus. They are 90-95% as good as blizzaks except on glare ice. But they handled great on dry pavement too. Not squirmy like a true winter tire. Obviously they are for trucks. I turned a buddy on to them and he hasn't put his blizzaks on yet this year as they do nearly as well but he also does a lot of commuting

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I am going to second this.
Disclaimer- They are on my truck- our third vehicle. It tows a boat occasionally, acts as a spare, occasionally road trips for paddling, and plows the driveway. I don't do anything with the truck that tests dry road handling- it is a 99 f150 7700.

On dry roads, I don't notice them. My truck drives like a truck.
On dirt, they are surprisingly good. When out scouting ski lines in the woods, I use 4 WD much less than I would expect.

Snow- they rock. I have a steep driveway, no weight in the back of the truck. With these tires, I can plow down hill into a pile of snow knowing I can back right out. I have an icy flat spot that I used to get stuck in with various other tire set ups. Other than chains, these are the only tires I have used. Hard to find any bad reviews online on these.

They are definitely going on my Promaster conversion.
When I get one.

My Hakka 9 drive pretty good on all all the non snow here in UT

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Originally Posted by AweShuksan

They might not be clueless, maybe they just don't know any better.

It wasn't that long ago that studs were the only thing that worked on ice. Now we have better solutions but old habits die hard.

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well no my point would be that up narth it seems everybody even the normaly clueless/ possibly broke mount up their studs or good ice radials cuz they know they will need to

While down south the people who should know better and/or can afford real winter tires are trying to get out of spending the money

I been on studded Haks for 17 yars, never tried the studless winters but my assumption is that studded snows will last longer than ice radials due to the compromise on rubber softness to get the ice capability?

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I been on studded Haks for 17 yars, never tried the studless winters but my assumption is that studded snows will last longer than ice radials due to the compromise on rubber softness to get the ice capability?

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If by "ice radials" you mean "studless winter tires", no, studs will not maintain good winter performance longer than studless. As soon as the studs are worn down a bit their performance drops below a good studless winter tire which maintains it's ice/snow grip better over time. And steel wears faster than rubber, particularly if you don't drive like a granny on bare/wet pavement. Any spirited driving on pavement with studded tires will trash the studs in short order.

There are two reasons so many people still use studs when better options are available for most peoples circumstances:

1) Old habits die hard. Old wives tales live on.

2) It's common sense that studs will work far better, right? The problem with this line of thinking is that, while you can see studs, the technology that allows studless winter tires to grip compact snow and ice is molded invisibly into the rubber. So people who don't know any better think they can't work as well as studs. And yet they are sure they are right because they can see with their own eyes the steel studs in the rubber.

The fact that you've never tried studless winter tires means you will likely be pleasantly surprised when you finally do.

https://info.kaltire.com/myths-studded-winter-tires/

So I could believe you or I could believe them^^ ?

I do not drive in snow but maybe 20 days a season, but I do drive about 380 miles in each direction both to and from Mammoth, so I need a solid dry pavement performing tire that still has a snowflake symbol on it for when CA Highway Patrol gets crazy with chaining up requirements.

I have always bought the best AS tires based on Tire rack recommendations. I find they are great season 1 and season 2 I need to be more careful as they have about 20k miles on them and less tread depth at that point.

Presently I am on some Hankook Ventus 1 Nobel's that were great season 1 and we shall see for season 2. I previously had great luck with Continental Extreme Contact DWS tires.

Attachment 220669

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Originally Posted by liv2ski

I do not drive in snow but maybe 20 days a season, but I do drive about 380 miles in each direction both to and from Mammoth, so I need a solid dry pavement performing tire that still has a snowflake symbol on it for when CA Highway Patrol gets crazy with chaining up requirements.

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Is there any indication that Caltrans will ever change how they enforce their rule regarding m/s rating over snowflake rating? I believe the vehicle code would have to be changed.


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Originally Posted by liv2ski

I do not drive in snow but maybe 20 days a season, but I do drive about 380 miles in each direction both to and from Mammoth, so I need a solid dry pavement performing tire that still has a snowflake symbol on it for when CA Highway Patrol gets crazy with chaining up requirements.

I have always bought the best AS tires based on Tire rack recommendations. I find they are great season 1 and season 2 I need to be more careful as they have about 20k miles on them and less tread depth at that point.

Presently I am on some Hankook Ventus 1 Nobel's that were great season 1 and we shall see for season 2. I previously had great luck with Continental Extreme Contact DWS tires.

Attachment 220669

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Funny, I’ve had 3 of those all-seasons in that chart, the Conti DWS, the Bridgestone RE97, and the Serenity Plus. The Conti DWS are far superior to the other two, better in rain and dry but especially better in the snow. I have the last generation of DWS now and apparently the new generation is even better. That said, I only use these for summer & fringe seasons and have used studded Hancooks for winter.

We just switched to X-ice (without studs) for one of the cars and will have to see how those work in snow/ice. They’re light years better than studs on wet concrete/dry.

So are Studded tires made with harder, longer-lasting, rubber compound than unstudded Winter tires?
> Re: xxx'ers comments about wear.

Had always assumed Studded would have the same soft, non-durable rubber.

^^^Depends. On the Hancooks and the Hakk 5’s it was the same exact tire and they would install studs at the shop.
Technology changes, obviously those new studs from Hakkapeliitta sound pretty cool. Go to their site.

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Originally Posted by TurxSki

So are Studded tires made with harder, longer-lasting, rubber compound than unstudded Winter tires?
> Re: xxx'ers comments about wear.

Had always assumed Studded would have the same soft, non-durable rubber.

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Somewhere up in this thread, @auvgeek recounted a conversation with the Nokian rep where he learned that their studded Hakka 8's (current model at the time) had a harder, longer wearing rubber and that it was a better solution for places you wouldn't expect them to be (i.e. lots of warm weather down in the flats) and of course, better where you would expect them to be.

This inspired me to switch from the R2's to the studded 9's last month.

... Thom

the last few sets of Nokians if not all of them came from the factory already studded and the studs were different than what a tire store would put in your tires, the carbide tip was the same but the barrel of the stud was bigger

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Originally Posted by plugboots

^^^Depends. On the Hancooks and the Hakk 5’s it was the same exact tire and they would install studs at the shop.
Technology changes, obviously those new studs from Hakkapeliitta sound pretty cool. Go to their site.

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This is the answer, "depends". It's an fairly quick evolving technology at the consumer level, and different brands have different tech and marketing (and cost).

For instance, aside from the nokian tech that is being largely discussed in this thread, there are many "studdable" tires, some are pretty great without the studs, like that generals that many of us are using, and some are not that great, like the mud tires with the nonsiped big studdable blocks.

Eta, if I still lived in socal and regularly did the mammoth drive, it'd put some snowflake rated AT tires on if i had an suv or truck and run them year round or some "all weather" tires that edge more of dry pavement performance (and higher speed rating) like the Nokia WR-series or some others discussed here. If i had space, I'd probably run this only during the season. Driving 395, especially in spring will destroy real winter tires (based on personal experience). You could be driving the desert in 90* ambient temp for a few hundred miles both directions, but in experience true winter road conditions above 5 or 6k ft.

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Originally Posted by El Chupacabra

You got some summer tires I can borrow? 235/45/17 (or 225/45/17). That should do it.

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:D

Go see my girl (?) Kay at Incline Village Tire Dept

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Originally Posted by AweShuksan

1) Old habits die hard. Old wives tales live on.

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You are making the same mistake that you suggest others are making.

You claim others aren't giving modern premium studless tires a fair chance and that they are so much better than studless tires from years ago. At the same time you seem to be unable to grasp that modern premium studded tires are far superior to studded tires from years ago.

Modern studless tires do an impressive job for sure but as it turns out modern studded tires have seen a few advances over the years and many of your criticisms of them simply no longer apply.

Studs aren't for everyone or every situation but your assertion that studless are king is silly.

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Originally Posted by oldblue

You are making the same mistake that you suggest others are making.

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The study posted by auvgeek uses a wide cross section of modern studded tires and they came to much the same conclusion that I did.

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Studs aren't for everyone or every situation but your assertion that studless are king is silly.

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I didn't say "studless are king", in fact, I acknowledged studded tires typically have a little better ice grip (when new) and are good for beginning drivers or those without good winter driving skills. However, the vast majority of good drivers don't need studded tires to safely traverse winter mountain storms due to the excellent traction offered by modern winter tires.

In the same vein I would never say bicycle training wheels don't have a purpose. But they are not a go-to solution for experienced bicyclists. Use the right tool for the job.

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

This is the answer, "depends". It's an fairly quick evolving technology at the consumer level, and different brands have different tech and marketing (and cost).

For instance, aside from the nokian tech that is being largely discussed in this thread, there are many "studdable" tires, some are pretty great without the studs, like that generals that many of us are using, and some are not that great, like the mud tires with the nonsiped big studdable blocks.

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Exactly! And none of the best winter studless tires accept studs. They are designed to not need studs.

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Originally Posted by AweShuksan

Exactly! And none of the best winter studless tires accept studs. They are designed to not need studs.

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And how and who defines "best".....?

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

And how and who defines "best".....?

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Several recent objective studies done on studless tires that looked at acceleration, ice braking, snow braking, cornering, and track times that give lots of #s using the same drivers, same course, same car. That’s about as objective a way to define “Best” as is available. Also how I ended up with Hakka R2s. I researched this to death before buying, even though I’ve been a lifelong studded tire user. Super happy with the R2s so far.

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Originally Posted by bourbonisgood

Several recent objective studies done on studless tires that looked at acceleration, ice braking, snow braking, cornering, and track times that give lots of #s using the same drivers, same course, same car. That’s about as objective a way to define “Best” as is available.....

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Yep . That is as good of test information that i have found, too. I haven't seen a test that includes some of the other things we are discussing such as non-frozen road handling and wear. Here in California, we'll finally start dealing with deep sludge snow on the roads (fingers crossed).



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Originally Posted by AweShuksan

I acknowledged studded tires typically have a little better ice grip (when new) and are good for beginning drivers or those without good winter driving skills.

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Still ignoring that studded tech has changed dramatically. Have you looked at a Hakka 8 or 9? Modern factory installed studs are worlds apart from what you seem to be familiar with. They don't wear quickly, nor do they have most of the drawbacks you keep trying to reinsert into the discussion.

I am not trying to convince folks to get studs but your knowledge of stud tech seems very dated.

It's my understanding the reason there are no stud holes in an ice radial studless is the design/rubber is too soft to hold a stud and besides if they put studs in them ... They wouldn't be studless

The tire shootout I read put studded & studless up against each other, the studded Haks won the braking on ice test and the tester pointed out its probably becuz they had the most studs per tire

Folks always complain about handling with studs on bare pavement, ime its not becuz of a missing margin of safety, it's cuz you were driving way too fucking fast and I know this cuz as a road warrior I drove my golf too fast in all conditions with hak 1 and 2

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Originally Posted by whyturn

My Hakka 9 drive pretty good on all all the non snow here in UT

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Same for the Toyo Celsius in CO....wait....there's an inch of snow out there! I better go drive in it before it melts!

How bad do studded tires destroy pavement, driveways, concrete slabs, etc?

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

It's my understanding the reason there are no stud holes in an ice radial studless is the design/rubber is too soft to hold a stud and besides if they put studs in them ... They wouldn't be studless

The tire shootout I read put studded & studless up against each other, the studded Haks won the braking on ice test and the tester pointed out its probably becuz they had the most studs per tire

Folks always complain about handling with studs on bare pavement, ime its not becuz of a missing margin of safety, it's cuz you were driving way too fucking fast

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^^^ this ^^^

Aftermarket studding makes no sense to me. It's pretty clear that rubber compounds are optimized for one or another.

Why would anyone expect any Winter based tire to handle as well on dry pavement as a Summer/all-season?

Drive within the design parameters of your gear.

... Thom

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Originally Posted by oldblue

Still ignoring that studded tech has changed dramatically. Have you looked at a Hakka 8 or 9? Modern factory installed studs are worlds apart from what you seem to be familiar with. They don't wear quickly, nor do they have most of the drawbacks you keep trying to reinsert into the discussion.

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Exactly.

There's really no point in comparing the worst studded tires to the best studless. My experience with the Hakka 8 vs non-factory studded tires has been worlds apart in terms of road noise and wear characteristics. I haven't driven a modern studless snow though, so I can't speak to how well they perform in the real world. I do own a modern all-weather 3PMSF-rated tire (Yokohama G015), which can't compete at all with the Hakka 8 on snow and ice. Thom used to own the R2 and now owns the Hakka 9 so maybe if CO gets some decent snow, he can comment. At the least, he can say how much worse the studded tires are on bare pavement.

If you look at the data from tire tests, the top 2-3 studded tires perform significantly better on ice, marginally better on snow, about the same on wet pavement, and marginally worse on dry pavement compared to the top 2-3 studless tires. Personally, I think the ice performance outweighs the minimal drawbacks on dry pavement because it's SO much better. We're talking about stopping 20m shorter on ice vs <1m longer on dry pavement. There's no sense in talking about acceleration or racing up to the ski hill -- anyone who drives in the mountains knows that cornering and braking are where most accidents occur.

Yes, it really would be great if they re-ran the tests after 20k winter miles on the tires. Some studless tires (Blizzak) run a double rubber compound and thus suffer from the same highly nonlinear wear behavior as (older) studded tires.

That said, for many people -- if you commute a long ways daily on dry pavement, commute a long way to the mountains, rarely go to the mountains, etc -- modern studless are very likely a better choice.

FWIW, here are some more recent data. Will be curious to see the 2017 tests with the new Hakka 9.
Studded: http://www.laneks.lv/en/tests/read/TM-2016-win1.html
Studless: http://www.laneks.lv/en/tests/read/TM-2016-win2.html

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

I've noticed that up here in the narth with 5 months of winter even people one would label as clueless looking ... will run studs

you can check out 15 yr old Sunfires at the mall and they are running studded tires worth more than the car

How much is yer life worth?

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+1000000 come to Alaska where there’s ice and snow from sept/October to April and sometimes May and see how many people are running studs vs non studded.

I’ve delivered pizzas in the winter in a 2wd ford ranger and bald all seasons and driven through passes in the same vehicle but that don’t mean shit for an average winter driver.

which does not mean its a good idea, I mean didn't yall vote for trump?

Definitely not a good idea and I didn’t vote for that retard. I was just saying a skillful winter driver can make it work with whatever but why?

And a 21 year old from anchorage has more winter driving experience than aweshuksan has in 35 years in WA.

how cold ? cuz traction increases as the temps go down so if its -30 or 40 C you will have a fair amount of traction while snow at around freezing or 0C is the most slippery

Ok then how about sarah palin ?

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

Somewhere up in this thread, @auvgeek recounted a conversation with the Nokian rep where he learned that their studded Hakka 8's (current model at the time) had a harder, longer wearing rubber and that it was a better solution for places you wouldn't expect them to be (i.e. lots of warm weather down in the flats) and of course, better where you would expect them to be.

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This debate has gathered more attention so I dug up the original video so you can all draw your own conclusions instead of relying on my interpretation. The Nokian rep specifically states 5%-10% longer wear with Hakka 8 vs R2, but does not give a temperature range associated with it. Obviously one should take anything a rep says with a grain of salt, but I don't see an obvious source of bias in the video since Nokian makes excellent studded and studless tires that cost about the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHbesH6B5QI

Here's a separate video on the Hakka 9. They address the issue of stud retention, though you obviously have to take it with a grain of salt since it's rep promoting a new product.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIl6Wu__HLY

Interestingly, one of the youtube comments said the new studs on the Hakka 9 are louder than the Hakka 8.