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Ah, that's cool, I didn't know that about the Fischers. IME, kicker skins have a tendency to act like snowplows on skis without a ton of camber underfoot, but if it's integrated into the ski design, then I bet they'll work better.
The extra drag from the fishscales will be nice when you're skiing down an icy hiking trail that only has 8 inches of snow over roots and rocks, because Colorado.
You could do that. Waxing works just as well as fish scales as you probably know, probably better as some would argue. There are advantages to each of course, depending on conditions. The main advantage of patterned skis is the simplicity of not having to wax or use skins IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
Yeah, I'm trying really hard to remind myself that I just want something simple and comfortable. Not easy for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by been in it
I got rid of waxless skis in favor of kickwaxing even on bigger skis, although I sold the Elan Lhotses that I was using for that purpose since I'm on A/T gear now and it is so light I just use it for everything except true nordic. The only advantage of waxless is simplicity and convenience. However, as you noted, it is condition dependent. Waxing is very simple in cold dry climates but can be miserable in warm wet conditions. Far superior for grip and glide compared to any waxless skis I have owned. Plus you don't come to an instant stop when you hit a sharp rock on an icy run out or have to deal with the annoying drag and bzzzzz... bzzzz sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by been in it
Never tried Voile but did have Fischer Boundless crowns that I came to despise. Everything I have read says the Voiles are superior to those Fischers for grip/glide and also less camber, would like to try a pair out of curiosity. I do have one pair of beater waxless nordic skis for low snow or warm conditions.
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So how much slower are fat fishscale skis like the V6/Vector on low angle, shallow powder and packed run outs? It seems like opinions vary on how much of a hindrance that really is.
I just picked up a pair to make lower angle tours/strolls in the woods on skis more enjoyable than always having to have skins on.
Yesterday was a perfect example of the difference of fat fish scaled (Voile Charger BCs) vs regular base skis.Quote:
Originally Posted by glademaster
The exit on the well trod zone we were in flattens and is rolly. The snow was packed hard by the number of skiers that use the area. I would try and get into fresh snow with the scales as they glide just fine there, but as soon as I got the packed snow I would slow. That being said, I was able to easily climb each minor uphill or water bar while my partners had to herringbone or side step. Overall I ended up as the last person back down at the trailhead as a result of the mostly downhill exit.
Note to self - Chargers need a new coat of wax.
Thanks for feedback. Sounds like they might be a bit of a drag on FS roads, but I bet they'll have enough glide to get me out to the TH from the low-angle zone up the road.
Do you hot wax them or use a liquid wax? Wax the fishscales too?
They should be a fun addition to the quiver.
I find them great up FS roads early season and late. Basically times when the snow is shit and it might be half rock/snow haha. They are so much more more durable than skins!
I usually just wax tip and tail (non fish scale part).
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Don’t hot wax the scales unless you want to spend an evening picking wax out of all the crevices. I made that mistake once.
The harder and less smooth the snow is, the slower the fish scales will be. Re-frozen snowmobile tracks are the worst.
Hot wax tips/tails and apply F4 or a paste wax the scales.
I’ve found that some have better glide than others. Voile being the worst glide for marginally better uphill of the ones I’ve tried. They were a demo pair so maybe shitty wax or something but I was literally walking downhill
My new Fischer S-bounds, although far less capable on the downhill, glide a lot better than any others I’ve tried. They also have pretty good grip and the kicker skins that I can add really work well.
Thanks for the information. Downhill capability is definitely more important to me than having a hybrid at/xc ski. I live right at the base of a pass that offers a fair amount of 20-25 degree meadows and glades that are easy access from pass level. The skin track tends to follow an old road/hiking trail, and I think most of it is shallow enough in pitch to get up with fishscales. That's going to be the primary use for these skis. Park at 8700', hike up to a ridge around 10200-10400, lap low angle trees between the ridge and about 9250, then cruise out the trail to the highway.
Well, that and exploring areas that involve lower elevation starts where I don't want to thrash the bases and edges of my Praxis AT setup for the sake of mediocre turns. Some nice aspen glades adjacent to a couple hiking trails right in my next of the woods seem like they would be worth exploring, but given the TH elevations, the extra drag might be nice for the exits.
The Fischer negative pattern is “cut” into the base, while the Voile (and Madshus) positive pattern is raised from the base. As a result Fischer offers less grip and more glide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
Yeah, I know and that drag on the Voile really sucks for skiing downhill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peruvian
I’m doing pretty much what glade is shooting for with the S-bounds. Haven’t really had to use the kicker skins much. I also upgraded to some T2s which are kinda overkill, but way more proficient for skiing than the Alpinas that I returned. I’ll probably end up breaking the S-bounds though.
Which brings me to the next question: is anyone using lightweight Skimo at gear on these?
Yeah, I'm putting ATK Crest 10 bindings on my V6 BC's.
I'll be skiing them with La Sportiva Spectre 2.0's, because that's the AT boot I own at the moment, but between now and next season I see myself replacing them with a Hoji Free (or something similar) and an AT boot in the 1000-1250g weight range.
Has anyone tried that DPS Phantom stuff on a pair of these? Seems like it would make sense, other than the cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by glademaster
That sounds like a great use of the stuff.
I think it'd be cool to have a set mounted with light telemark bindings.
But no one will care ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Norseman
('cept michael.)
just seems like it'd be nice to avoid any transitions ever
Yeah, but then you have to make tele turns.
Dolores LaChapelle was spot on when she said that powder skiing on tele gear is a poor substitute for the fixed heel powder turn.
My Meidjos are pretty light.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norseman
You really don't have to make tele turns, if you use heavy enough boots. With lightweight tele boots, there will probably be times where you need the stability of the tele position.Quote:
Originally Posted by glademaster
IMO, a three-pin-and-optional-cable binding on a fishscale ski is a great tool for logging roads, meadows, low-angle dust-on-crust skiing, and the like. An AT setup, even with an easy-to-transition binding like the G3 Onyx, doesn't provide the same freedom of movement over rolling terrain, or in a long, not-particularly-steep descent with flat sections.
Yeah, this is exactly my setup. Voile three pins w/ cable optional and honestly I’m happier without the cable most of the time. Also pulled the tongues and power strap off my T2s and it seems just about perfect. I could totally drive a bigger ski if needed. And yeah, Tele turns are optional.Quote:
Originally Posted by anotherVTskibum
When you are skiing 20-25 degree slopes, Tele turns are a lot more fun than fixed heel turns, no matter what Dolores claims.
Thanks, brand new to this and wondered whether this was ok. Hot wax seemed like a disaster and leaving the middle bone dry didn't make sense. Paste enroute from NH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peruvian
Did this for prolly 5 seasons or so. I had Karhu Catamounts, and then Fischer sBounds w/ voile 3 pin cables and T1-3. Switched to Dynafit, then ATK etc. It was a perfect set-up for this little 10 turn slope behind our house, especially w/ a small kid. Do the turns, climb back up, then watch kid while wife does same. It works best for quick repeats, but in reality, I was doing it cuz tech toes were still a new thing. You could do the same w/ locking and unlocking the heel, so I have a slope in mind now, and I may mount some old Dynafits on the sBounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norseman
I have a lot of experience on fishscales skis including Fischer SBounds and the last 8 years on Voile Vectors BC's and Charger BC's. First you can't really compare Fischer SBounds to Voile fishscale skis. The Sbounds are a hybrid XC and light touring ski with a Nordic camber and some size as compared to a XC ski. The Voile fishscales are a mid sized backcountry ski that happens to have fishscales, so light camber underfoot and tip and tail rocker.
I have Vector BC's with Voile X2 bindings and T2 Eco boots. I think as far as a backcountry tele setup it has the chops to ski anything one could ski telemarking. I also have some Voile Hyper Vectors BC's with Dynafits/ Maesrales and a pair of Voile Charger BC's with Dynafits/Maestrales. I feel the same about my AT setups that they have the chops to ski anything I am capable of skiing. Now this is only on wild backcountry snow with no resort involved.
Lastly, the only fair comparison is comparing the Voiles with regular backcountry skis with the same dims and skins for climbing up. I think the bottomline is that if the tour is up and down from the TH then regular ski setups rule and if ther tour is bigger approaches and rolling run outs then the Voile fishscales rule.
IMO
I wasn’t trying to say the Fischers and Voiles were apples to apples, just saying that the Fischer’s might be a better tool for the job in question. I mean are you really going to slide downhill in low angle pow on slopes with the drag of the Voile scales? I remember walking downhill on a packed out fire road and wondering how anyone got enough glide. Maybe I’ll revisit it soon though.
I'll find out soon enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
The fact that the road was packed out is what slowed you down with the scales. In powder, they are unnoticeable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
I bought enough fish scale base material to press five or six pairs from a guy in Idaho who sold his business. I’ve been sitting on the material for a couple years now. I’m almost certain it’s the exact same material Voile uses. I’m not looking to make a habit of building fish scaled skis but it would be fun to build a few pairs of carbon skis if anyone would be interested.
Hm. Would it be as simple as just swapping the base material into one of your existing designs? A fishscaled Cutthroat sounds kinda sweet, and fitting.Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinB
Yeah I could just splice it in underfoot at the time of pressing. I would have to figure out some minor details but it would be a fairly easy thing to do. Cutthroats would be ideal. I should build myself a damn pair first just to make sure I like them!
Do it!Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinB
(Send me a pair of 186cm if you find a blem ;))
Who would buy a ski setup for its ability to ski on a packed fire road? Have you even tried a Voile fishscale before you start dissing the glide? For me, I have had plenty of Sbound skis in the distant past mainly the Boundless and at that time the skis were head and shoulders above the current scaled skis like a Catamount or a E99. As far as glide, the Voiles glide well enough even simlar to any Sbounds unless you have evidence or testing them to Sbounds. One thing for certain, they glide maybe 30% faster with the same energy than a trad ski with skins. Plus they ski the down in the back country environment about as well as a trad ski. WTBS, I haven't seen, toured with or tried a new Sbound ski.Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
I totally dig my Vector BC with Targa and T3. They do everything I want or need them to do. Kick, climb and glide just fine.
Mad scientist thinking out loud here but... has anyone taken a short wide alpine ski with camber, cut the base out in a big oval under foot, and laid in a section of old climbing skin with epoxy. Kind of like making your own Altai Hok but with an alpine ski that you like?
No, but now I want to w/ my old Dynastar Big rock skis and throw on a g3 targa binding I have laying around.Quote:
Originally Posted by singlecross
I’ve said a few times in this thread that I have demoed a few Voile fishscale skis and they were miserable on the terrain I was on. Not just fire roads. You obviously have far more experience on them though. Maybe they’ve gotten better since or the tune on the ones I had sucked (as I said before). So go have fun. I’m not here to argue about extreme nordorking with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadzilla
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/events/red-bull-nordixQuote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Redacted
The only one in this thread talking about "extreme nordorking" is you: you're the one skiing glorified cross country skis with half a binding.
Everything in this thread is extreme nordorking.Quote:
Originally Posted by glademaster
That half a binding costs 1/5th of what you are paying to lock your heel down for 20 degree turns.
Whatever, it’s all fun. Go do it and report back. I hope it works out for you.