Think I am going to throw down for a pair. Does anyone still have a spare code?
Printable View
Think I am going to throw down for a pair. Does anyone still have a spare code?
Was on RPCs until they completely delaminated. Great ski in constant conditions (like blisterreview says) but hard to ski in variable snow and steep tight places. In the last days I skied my old El Dictators again. Wow, what a difference in stability! Makes me rethink the concept of a playful charger under the following aspect:
- - playful charger (e.g. RPC): easy to ski, but requires more power to control in variable terrain and snow conditions. Does not provide the confidence to go down the fall line regardless unpredictable snow/terrain like a…
- - real charger (e.g. El Dictator): terrible to ski at low speed and in bumps, otherwise no limits in reasonably open terrain. Stomps landings even to hardpack. Wrecks usually the legs and demands a good work out.
Right now I rather tend to stick to the real charger concept. Though, as I’m getting older, I’m looking for a charger which requires less effort so I can reinvest the spare power to charge even harder respective save my knees for some years of skiing more.
So where is the GPO in this setting?
^^Seems like the 12.13 191 Billy Goat to me. Haven't skied the El Dictator, but the 191 BG is a great charging ski with a playful side.
But you could try the GPO in a stiff flex without carbon and mount a few cm behind the line if you're set on that ski.
Been on the Dictators and 186 BGs as well as spent a lot of time on old Head m103s (NASTY chargers). I def think the new BG fits the bill. The old one does too, but a bit more tail width (new one) will make it hook less in wide open dense uncut snow. Personally, I'd like a bit less shape overall on the BG, though, but then the groomer zoomers won't be as happy I guess.
I think this can be said about almost every ski I own. But I think the BG skis like it has a longer turn radius than stated (29.X). It certainly feels longer than the Renegade's 35 m turn radius.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl
Out of curiosity, have you skied the new 12.13 BG with the RES? I haven't skied the old versions, so I can't offer a valid comparison, but I can say that this one is shaped much differently than the previous versions without RES. Much less taper.
No, I need to connect with PowTron sometime soon to try it out (same BSL). I meant to do that this month, but I blew my ACL last month, so I can't really give it a fair shake. To know if I want it or not, I need to be able to ski tight tree lines with cliff drops - without an ACL that just won't happen. The old BG is money for that kind of stuff, and thats about all I do mid-winter (too dangerous in CO for big lines), so its super important for me. I'd also prefer to be on a 186.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
In dense uncut snow (alpine pow), at top speed, the old BG has a bit of a wobble effect that I'd like to get rid of, but still maintain its overall characteristic manueverability in trees. If it gives up too much, I'd rather just have another ski in my quiver.
Have you ever felt that wobble effect on any ski before? It only happens at high speeds. Wondering what you think the cause of it is? It's like someone is grabbing the tip and tail and swiveling it side-to-side on the snow very slightly. I always thought the lack of shape of the Renegade would fix it, but I'm not entirely sure - it could be the extreme pintail (140/115/120) thats doing it too. It's definitely scary feeling it knowing that I don't have an ACL to protect my knee right now. I picked up some Wrenegades for cheap to try it out as an alpine pow ski as a quiver solution - planning on trying em out as soon as those SAC STHs come in.
I'm sure you know this, but the 12.13 186 has RES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindahl
Regarding the trees+drops: the 12.13 191 BG (w/ wood veneer) is the most stable landing platform I've ever owned. I may be wrong, but I can't think of a single drop this season from which I didn't ski away cleanly when I was on the 191 BG. There have been some drops after which I was unable to keep it together, but that ski stomps landings like nothing else I've tried. Little anecdote: I accidentally hit a small cliff (15' or so) at speed and sailed a good 50-60 feet -- thought I was gonna blow up the landing for sure. The skis did the work for me on that one, and I was able to land and shut it down before the next patch of trees...just barely, but it worked out fine. The swing weight isn't perfect for throwing 3s off cliffs and stuff, but they're just so easy to stomp that I don't notice it, particularly compared to the Renegades. The Rens are fine if I'm just straight airing things, but my skills when tricking aren't good enough to ensure I land perfectly centered every single time.
OTOH, the Rens are slightly easier in low-angled tight trees, where it's possible to open it up a bit and run bases flat down the fall line, because they pivot side-to-side so damn easily. If you watch Hoji ski in that kind of terrain, you really get a feel for how the skis like to be skied -- when doing it right, I really feel like I'm channeling my "inner Hoji," which I know sounds super corny, but I've never felt that way with another pro model...it's just the way those skis were meant to be skied -- very bouncy with lots of lateral motion. The BG gives up a little bit maching through tight trees because it's harder to shut down, but it still works very well. After I switched to a stiffer pair of boots (Scorpion 130), got my hands up (thanks Gordy camp!), and started skiing more from the driver's seat than a neutral stance, I started to love the BGs more than the Rens. YMMV and all that.
No, I've honestly never felt that phenomenon. But I've never skied something super pintailed and tapered for any length of time.Quote:
In dense uncut snow (alpine pow), at top speed, the old BG has a bit of a wobble effect that I'd like to get rid of, but still maintain its overall characteristic manueverability in trees. If it gives up too much, I'd rather just have another ski in my quiver.
Have you ever felt that wobble effect on any ski before? It only happens at high speeds. Wondering what you think the cause of it is? It's like someone is grabbing the tip and tail and swiveling it side-to-side on the snow very slightly. I always thought the lack of shape of the Renegade would fix it, but I'm not entirely sure - it could be the extreme pintail (140/115/120) thats doing it too. It's definitely scary feeling it knowing that I don't have an ACL to protect my knee right now. I picked up some Wrenegades for cheap to try it out as an alpine pow ski as a quiver solution - planning on trying em out as soon as those SAC STHs come in.
But really, we should get out of the GPO thread with our Billy Goat and Renegade talk.
PS. Vibes on the ACL. Sucks, mang.
Edit: My 191 BGs are the stock layup with wood veneer. I was talking to Scott the other day, and he said the wood veneer basically acts as another composite layer because there's another layer of epoxy on top of the wood. So, apparently, they're stiffer than stock by a non-trivial amount. Since I'm not a huge guy (165#), he said he'd have recommended the tour layup if he'd known that then. Obviously, I love the skis and wouldn't change a thing, but it's worth noting in the review.
auvgeek, suprechicken - could either of you perhaps do a quick compare/contrast of the 192 GPO and 191 BG? I have a feeling the BG is more what I'm looking for as an upgrade to my Squads, but the ridiculous presale price of the GPO is oh-so-tempting...
@roQer - the gpo is great. It's absurdly easy to ski in bumps and variable snow, and I think it's more stable than the 190 Bibby in straightlining high speeds. Awesome float. Never been on the el dictator. But I spent some good time on the RPC, and the gpo has just as high a speed limit without any of the punishment you take in variable conditions. I also think it floats better than the RPC in deep snow.
@adrenalated - I don't think you'd go wrong either way. I love both skis. I've never been on the squad. The billy goat is a little more stable in suboptimal snow and is a little more work. Gpo is the much quicker ski and I think it's a lot less work at slow speeds and in tight spaces. Both have great landing platforms, but the goats are better. The res is a little surfier, but I have yet to sink the tips of either ski riding forward in some pretty deep snow. If I were guaranteed 3d snow, I'd prefer the goats. If i have unknown snow conditions, I'd prefer the gpo. Hardpack, park, bumps - all advantage gpo. Gpo is quicker edge to edge. Neither seems to have a speed limit. Gpo is probably a little more predictable, and maybe that makes it boring. It's not as much of a tank as the squads. It's a light, nimble ski without any noticeable sacrifice in stability. If you want to feel some meat under your feet - billy goats. If you want something that's just as or more versatile with equal stability and float of your squads - gpo. I like light, quick responsive skis and I couldn't resist the presale pricing, so I own gpos. With auv's generosity and proximity, it made very little sense to purchase billy goats this year. That said (since I don't mind having a sizable quiver), i am likely to pick some up next year. Still choosing tour vs standard layup. That's absurd overlap with the gpo and gambit and Bibby. I have a problem. Whatever. Eventually, I'll find the one that decimates the quiver and there will be one hell of a sale that day.
Hope that helps? Any more specific questions?
My god, your "problem" aside...how the hell do you pick a ski on a given day?Quote:
Originally Posted by SupreChicken
So, maybe apples to oranges here, but have you skied EHPs? Considering picking up a pair of 187 GPO in either a med or med/stiff. Want a ski that can replace my 186 ehp as a do it all ski with dukes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SupreChicken
What I like about the EHPs: stupid easy, playful, not great for carving, but extremely predictable on hardpack / icy spots
What I would like in addition: a bit more float in funky crusts, a bit better on groomers, a bit more stability in heavy crud. But still easy to throw around, and predictable.
I have 190 BCs in med/stiff, an I love them. Not sure why I would consider the GPO in a medium, I just do. Will have to send Praxis a mail I guess.
I haven't skied the ehp, but i have skied the think I everything but deep snow, the
I've only skied the GPO for a few runs, so I hesitate to review it. But since you asked, I could sum it up in a word as: underwhelming. It's not that it did anything poorly, it was just...there. I want a ski that is going to push me to new heights, and that ski doesn't do it for me, personally. HOWEVER: I skied chicken's version which is 192, med-stiff, carbon, mounted on the dimple. Personally, I'd like it stiffer and damper with more ski in front of me. A non-carbon version in a stiff flex mounted 3-4 mils [Edit: centimeters] back from the dimple might ski extremely similar to the 191 Billy Goat.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
I think chicken and I have different styles in certain respects. The stock, carbon GPO might not have a top speed, but it doesn't inspire me to ski at my top speed, if that makes any sense. The same is true as a landing platform: the differences would be magnified on bigger airs at higher speeds where you're pushing the limit of your ability to keep it together. For the record, though, I haven't dropped anything over 10 or so feet on the GPO so that's just conjecture. If the idea of getting the GPO in a stiff construction, non-carbon and mounting behind the line sounds like your style, you'll be happy on the Billy Goat. If the thought of that scares you, the BG might not be your cup of tea. If you plan on using it for mainly variable conditions, just know that the BG does like to run, and it runs pretty damn fast.
Also, the RES in the BG makes it ski super loose in the pow (in a very good way). Almost like a real R/R. Feels curiously similar in looseness to the L120 spoon in untracked. I didn't use the 202 L138s that I love so much at all this season.
Edit: My 191 BGs are the stock layup with wood veneer. I was talking to Scott the other day, and he said the wood veneer basically acts as another composite layer because there's another layer of epoxy on top of the wood. So, apparently, they're stiffer than stock by a non-trivial amount. Since I'm not a huge guy (165#), he said he'd have recommended the tour layup if he'd known that then. Obviously, I love the skis and wouldn't change a thing, but it's worth noting in the review.
That wasn't useful. Sorry. I have skied the 186 ren. I tend to ride my tips, so I prefer the gpo in everything.
Better on groomers? Oh yeah. They lock in
Variable snow? Yup. Point it, have faith and they reward
Crusty float? Yup. Unsinkable.
They are super easy to throw around. Coming off my gambits, I actually have overturned these and missed a tree opening I was shooting for. Check out my gpo porn video. Some tight trees in there, and they are total pivot machines.
That was all with 192s. Hard to imagine you not loving the 187.
TripT - it's not that tough :)
187 med/stiff with stained glass top sheet ordered! So stoked for these!
I think 4mm would be too much. 3 is money.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
;)
Even more so, because mil = .001"
Nope, 0.001" would be thou as in thousanths, not mil. [/machinist dork]Quote:
Originally Posted by davieboot
Mil is the same thing as a thousandth. As in the Spanish word for thousand, and millennium. I don't work with every machinist in the world, but the ones I do all use mil.
I thought it meant millimeter.
dorks :D
Huh, grew up in a machine shop and never heard that, but don't doubt ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by davieboot
Anyway, back to the topic at hand...
Thanks auvgeek and chicken for the comparisons! Very helpful, especially since I've skied the BG and think it's one of the best skis on the market. Was originally trying to get one ski to do it all (with inserts). Now I'm thinking of going gear whore style with 187 carbon GPO with Dynafiddle for a dedicated BC rig and 191 BG with Guardians for inbounds/sidecountry crushing...
davieboot speaks the truth. Thou is the germanic root for 1000, while mil is the Romance-language root for 1000. (Clearly, I meant cm in my post. That's what I get for posting hastily at work.)Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalated
If cost weren't a factor, I honestly think the perfect two-ski pow quiver would be 189 DPS L120 spoon w/ tech binders and 191 BG w/ FKS or CAST touring system, if you really need to tour on it. I've said it before, but the spoon L120 skis quite similarly to the 191 BG in untracked. Would also highly consider the PM Gear Kusalas for it's versatility, which is definitely necessary in a touring ski. The edge hold on that ski is unreal for it's 122 mm waist. I'd feel way more comfortable fat-boy dropping a committing line on that ski than the L120 spoon if snow conditions were unknown.Quote:
I've skied the BG and think it's one of the best skis on the market. Was originally trying to get one ski to do it all (with inserts). Now I'm thinking of going gear whore style with 187 carbon GPO with Dynafiddle for a dedicated BC rig and 191 BG with Guardians for inbounds/sidecountry crushing...
Damn, I really need to get out of this thread with my talk of other skis. The GPO is an excellent ski, and I think it'd make a great quiver of one. I also really want to ski a pair with the changes that I mentioned above. It's awesome that Praxis is the only company offering custom skis at extremely reasonable prices.
damnit zak, everytime i settle on a ski you ruffle my feathers. has anybody been on both a GPO and a Cochise? of the larger variety preferably?
Woap.
Need to add something else: my 191 BGs are the stock layup with wood veneer. I was talking to Scott the other day, and he said the wood veneer basically acts as another composite layer because there's another layer of epoxy on top of the wood. So, apparently, they're stiffer than stock by a non-trivial amount. Since I'm not a huge guy (165#), he said he'd have recommended the tour layup if he'd known that then. Obviously, I love the skis and wouldn't change a thing, but it's worth noting in the review/comparisons.
Echoes what Keith told me about his wood topsheets (gorgeous BTW). As I understand it, he adjusts the base layup to get the right flex as ordered with the wood on top. But there's that thread drift again...
Keith's attention to detail never really surprises me, but always reminds me how awesome he is at his job.Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift
I'm outta this thread till I buy the ski it's about.
I've skied the 193 Cochise and own 192 gpo carbon.Quote:
Originally Posted by shroom
For very different skis they ski pretty similar. Both have that high speed stability that you can shut down easily. Gpo is easier to whip around in tight places and billygoat. Cochise might have a little better stability machloony speeds in stiffer snow. Gpo surfs powder better.
sent from the future using my mind powers
^^ sweet, i was led to believe the cochise would offer a damper, more stable ride at speed, which is what im after. appreciate the comparison.
It is damper. But the gpo is very stable at speed.
sent from the future using my mind powers
Ditto about Keith's attention to detail, but this seems above and beyond.Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift
I'm interested if anyone is looking at the 182 GPO.
Dood, the 192 GPO in the fiberglass layup, stiff flex, and custom topsheet can be had for $465 (w/20% coupon). That's got to be the best deal in skiing today.Quote:
Originally Posted by shroom
If I hadn't given away my 30% coupon, I'd be hard pressed to find a reason not to buy them at just over $400 for a brand new custom-made ski. Fucking unreal.
The 30% coupon is exactly the reason I pretty much have to buy a GPO in some length and layup. The price is insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by auvgeek
I'm interested in the 182 and talking with Keith about it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by davieboot
I'm 5'8" 170, and normally ski a 188 S7, and my bc ski is a 190 wailer 112rp.
I got a pair of 177 cm protests (haven't skied them yet).
I think 182 cm GPO's which will be stiffer than my S7's (duh), even if I go softer than stock med/stiff... should have maneuverability and stability at speed.
tell me more.. did you go stiff flex, hybrid layup?Quote:
Originally Posted by neck beard
Curious to here more about how the GPO compares to the bibby. The bibby is my go to ski, but I'm considering picking up the GPOs for kicks and would like to know of any benefits or pitfalls of the GPO. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by SupreChicken
paging the chicken..
Yeah. So.
Both are awesome, but I like the GPO more...pretty much everywhere. Even though it's not advertised, the tip definitely has some reverse sidecut, like the RES in the billy goat. It gives it a looser, surfier feel in deep snow.
For the record, my bibbys are mounted with Dukes, while my GPOs have STH16s and I think the stack height is actually a difference maker for me. I tend to ride the skis at high angles at speed and the bibby edges are quicker to wash out in the firm. Both are incredibly nimble for stiff, chargy skis. I think both are agile, forgiving and not just manageable, but I daresay, awesome in tighter spaces. Great tree skis, and both handle icy bumps with deep troughs without ruining the pilot. Both are much easier in those conditions to handle for me than the billy goat or the renegade.
Untracked: Whatever, both are money. GPO is a little less sinkable and surfier. There are four reasons that I can think of:
1) Narrower tail
2) Mellower (shorter) tail rocker
3) Reverse sidecut in the tip.
4) longer tip rocker
Condition-based comparisons are below. Both of these skis do everything well, so I'm sort of splitting hairs, but hey. It's fun.
Untracked: I ski the Bibby centered just a little. I can still rail the GPO tips and they won't sink. But really, if it's a powder day, I would have a blast on either one.
Cut up, heavy snow: This is where both of these skis just completely kick ass. Just point em. They will rip right through. Damp and stable and no real need to slow down. Bibbys are a little heavier, GPO are a little easier to throw sideways on a dime in soft snow.
Bumps: Advantage Bibbys...barely. They are just a little more maneuverable. Longer and steeper tail rocker. Soft low angle bumps are worth ignoring on either ski. It's more fun. Steep, icy, deep bumps...Bibbys are easier to toss around.
Hardpack: Advantage GPO. For the same reason that makes the Bibbys the bumps winner.
Airs: GPO. Pintail sinks in and the tail is a little stiffer and gives more support when you land imperfectly...which I do most of the time I land.
Park: Bibby is better switch. GPO is a little easier to bring around in the air. Both are stupid fun for a big charging ski.
I have yet to find the speed limit on the GPO. I found it on the bibbys making high angle turns on slushy groomers, where the edges are quick to wash out. Not sure if that's the dukes vs. STH stack height or the ski.
Both can be had for amazing prices now. Both are solid companies worth supporting. Probably why I own both. If I sell one, I'll sell the Bibbys.
Neither is as maneuverable as a JJ or Skevik Anton. Both are more maneuverable than the 195 gambit or 191 Billy Goat.
Buy one of them. Or a gambit. Or a billy goat. Not enough rage? Get a lib tech pow. Shit. Everything is on sale now. And you can get the Backcountry warranty on some of them...
Is somebody able to compare the GPO to the Squad 7? Curious how they stack up since they look quite similar on the surface.