With all due respect, Squawman, do you actually read these posts? It ain't about a refund. It's all about communication and a lack there of.
Printable View
With all due respect, Squawman, do you actually read these posts? It ain't about a refund. It's all about communication and a lack there of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chskier
I know, I know, but I still wouldn't let them keep your money the entire summer hoping against hope they get their act together
I can only imagine how you'll rant if they decide to close up shop
geesh, at least take the financial risk out of it
Well, now I'm really screwed. I broke my foot yesterday. Stress fracture; season over. Bye-bye, see you in the fall. :cussing:
dont be so sure about that. ive had three in the past year now (all from skateboarding).. and im getting really good at getting recovered enough to ski again in ~2 weeks or so. go find a non-impact chiropractor/osteopath and have them take a look at it and see if they get good blood flowing back into the area post-trauma. then get on crutches voluntarily and stay completely off of it - and take some bone meal supplement - this worked really really well for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by chskier
Hey, you may be right. Just got my films back and they look good. Very small fracture and my foot even feels better today!
Yes, Surreal 185cm on my feet mounted tele w/ HH. Larry at Larry's boot fitting in Boulder got a pair in March and mounted w/ Freeride. Seen several other pair on the slopes.Quote:
In reality there are almost no 2004-2005 db skis on the slopes. Has anyone seen a pair? How many? Where?
Ski is awesome. There were a number of changes to layup that resulted in delays. Demand was through the roof and supply quite limited.
I've heard they'll be building a big backlog for next season. Doubt it will be enough once people start to experience the ski. Everyone who's tried my skis has already ordered a pair. So I put my name on the waiting list for the R and hope to have for summer 14ner season.
As soon as db realized there'd be a problem they offered everyone a refund. I chose to wait and am glad I did.
If everyone asks for a refund they might go belly up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SquawMan
Me no want belly up, me want ski!
moi aussiQuote:
Originally Posted by KANUTTEN
Well, this has just turned up in my inbox:
[quote]dear db customers
it has been again a very frustrating season for us here. a lot of things
have not worked out like they should have. therefore we (cyrille boinay,
roman grossrieder, rikard hellqvist and mike o'neill) have decided to split
from goode ski technologies as our production partner. we had big
differences in the management team on how to run the company.
we never wanted to move production from michigan to china and are tired of
hearing from production and quality problems in china and the big delivery
delays resulting of them.
the internal communication between us here in europe and our people in the
usa, including goode ski technologies, our production partner, has not
worked. we have been left in the dark until today on what the exact reasons
are for the big delivery delays. we have heard dozens of unprofessional
promises concerning production, quality and communication improvements and
have seen no progress and performance from our partners in the usa just like
last year.
we have started dbskis.com to fulfill the skiers need of a high performance
ski produced in an ethically and socially sustainable environment. we feel
very bad we have created expectations on your side and have not been able to
meet them with our services and products.
we are now focusing on a new production project here in europe and found a
really professional and experienced carbon and composites manufacturer.
together, we have already changed and improved the construction of the skis
and have innovative ideas on how to stronger integrate our sales reps and
customers into a new organisation. the start-up of this new project will
take some more time, but we will keep you updated throughout the next weeks
on what is going on.
thanks for all the support and positive words we got from you the past two
years. this gives us the energy and motivation to continue our adventure,
but only on a much more professional level. we wish stephan drake and our
other usa counterparts all the best for their future.
ski on!
cyrille boinay, roman grossrieder, rikard hellqvist and mike o'neill
ps: we will come out with a redesigned tabla rasa-like model in 194cm for
2005 and reservations can be sent to administration@dbskis.com at the
moment. [quote]
sounds like some of the earlier comments about Goode may have had something in them :nonono2:
And if you get your TR's you will be very very happy. :biggrin:
Unfortunetely it didn't happened. No fresh new from DB'S team as they promised to do... :nonono2: Very quiet boys :eek:
That's pretty funny...
"....ummm no, we still don't have your skis...and probably never will"
to....."preorder the new Tablas now!"
:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier666
they even changed the shape for next year!
it's going from invisible to visible hopefully
I think that email raises more questions than it answers.
I guess they'll just be called "Boinay" skis now.
[QUOTE=Arno]Well, this has just turned up in my inbox:
At least you got an email.
All I have is a big charge on my credit card bill. From October.
I have friends in Jackson who ordered db skis. I heard a thousand pair were preordered. That's almost a million dollars. If the company split up, who has everyone's money?
d, b, or goode?
Uh-oh. Time to try to get your money back before everybody else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uma
Maybe 1000 pairs ordered but not so much with a credit bill cashed by DB. Anyway it looks like "get out of the car before it crash very bad"...Or here's the avalanche! :tdo13:
A lot of questions without answers and at this time or reorganization it might be long before manufacturing is set. I just give up and wish good luck. End of transmission... :(
See you next year same place same time. Have a "good night" folkls! :cool:
In fairness to them, I also got a mail saying that I really ought to take the money back option. It's a shame but I'll probably take up the offer now but still put my name on the list for the skis if they ever get made.
I think the email I quoted does answer some questions. However, I expect they have to be a little careful what they say. Just slagging off Goode etc etc doesn't look very professional and may get them sued!
I would love to know the real inside story on this - maybe I'll just have to hang around Engleburg and buy Cyrille a few drinks ;)
Hmmm. I wonder why I didn't get that email?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arno
It saddens me that things have not come together as planned for Cyrille and Stephan. I appreciate their approach and their innovation.
I believe they broke the 'composites barrier' in skiing and could well be heralded as the Chuck Yeagers of the sport for their breakthrough in ski design. If there's anything we can do to help them, PM Gear is offering.
Just for everybodys information: I received an e-mail from Roman at dbskis this last saturday. He informs that the european team of db splits up from the US counterparty. The european "arm" are planning a new company, the US "arm" plans to continue an operation (Drake and Goode). But as far as I understand, the dbskis.com brand/company will not survive this split up.
I hope this change will lead to some very good boards being made!
Stephan here, back off the sled. I was on a book project that I was locked into- one that was planned a year in advance. It had outside investment and sponsorship and was depending on a small group of us. The plans for the trip were made foreseeing db as humming along during the 04-05 season and that those in the network would be able to pick up the slack. Instead, it coincided perfectly with the production shortfall of 04-05, and now...corporate meltdown.
Communication-wise, I apologize for the lack of information. We have never intended to holdback information or conceal anything. Rather, the plan to be as transparent with information as possible. It was rather a lack of pertinent and up-to-date information on our own end. We had setup this business to run with its members as satellite entities, who depended on a steady information stream from the manufacturing side in case of delays. There is no question that GOODE lagged in the satellite information flow process, and everyone involved in the project will attest to it. There is also no question that db could have benefitted from a full-time presence at the manufacturing facility- where I am right now.
Building pure carbon fiber skis and translating those skis into a robust production is not an easy project. It's a tall mountain to climb. When we signed on with GOODE in the beginning, it was my feeling that we had joined a partnership that would allow us to make a groundbreaking move in skiing from both a technological and shaping perspective, and I still wholeheartedly believe this. There were a lot of challenges and learning mistakes that have been made along the way, and unfortunately our customers have had to suffer through those with us. It's created an unexpected nightmare and premature balding for everyone, but having great belief in this project and the work being done here, I know we are just about to turn the corner toward something really sweet.
The North American side of db will continue to build and develop what I feel are the highest performing skis made today. The current Swiss side of db grew weary of the process and frustrations of the climb, and is off to start their own venture, the details of which, will I am sure unfold shortly. Ultimately, there will be two different companies in operation in the near future. Stay tuned on that front, as it's unfolding right now.
We have solved a number of construction issues through the course of this year and are gearing up a strong, consistent output, with skis that have progressively improved over the course of the season. A dozen skis have recently shipped, and we have the capacity to start building over 100 pairs a month within the next few weeks. We will be up and running with a relaunch of stock by the beginning of summer.
It's the first priority of everyone involved in the old db project to make sure that everyone with a current open order is fully taken care of, whether they wish to hang out a bit longer for the delivery of their skis or act on the refund option. Nobody will lose their money, and those with refunds requests will be made whole ASAP. If you are a North American customer with an order that is still open (i will be contacting you shortly anyway) feel free to email me, stephan@dbskis.com with any questions, further authorizations for refunds, or to hold your order in the existing lineup. For those North American customers who have requested refunds to the European email administration account, but have not heard back, it will take about a week for your refund to reflect on your c.c. statement because the funds are currently being transferred from a Swiss to US account, and will be refunded using that US account- I apologize for that; it's going as fast as we can make the international wire system go. For those who chose to remain in the lineup, I feel quite confident that skis will be delivered in the early summer (I know, obviously not when you want them) and am working here on-site to make sure that deadlines are met from the production end.
Again, I really apologize for the frustration from both a communication and delivery standpoint. We should have a 1-800 number up and running within a week, which beyond email, will give everyone instant access to what's going on. I am confident things will turn for the better shortly in this carbon ski adventure, and once it does, I am optimistic that it will be a good ride.
Again, apologetically, Stephan
edit for typos.
Stephan, great to see your post. Just wanted to wish yourself and Dave all the best for the future – I’ve no doubt that you’ll get the production side of things sorted sooner rather than later. Hopefully the two sides of DB will go on to make the best skis in the market and pioneer the carbon revolution.
All the best,
Mike
Just a couple of question;
1. will the db brand continue to exist, and if yes, who will have the rights to the brand?
2. are there any patents on the skis, and if yes, who will have the ownership of the patents?
Good luck to both the american and european effort!
hey, roman (the administration dude) from dbskis here. sometimes it is hard to face the truth. in our case, i think, there is no other way than accepting it and sharing it with our customers, who have supported us through all of this.
i am not happy with stephan’s post on this forum. i am not writing here to start a war about the past of dbskis.com. my goal is to simply get some points straight here.
cyrille and me, together with mike and rikard, decided to split from goode as a production partner because of different reasons:
a) production capability
until today we only got 69 pairs of skis out for the 2004/2005 season, which is very poor looking at the production start in august/september 2004. we have cancelled close to 200 orders now. goode had promised us in january us a continued production throughout the season until 1'000 pairs are produced.
b) communication problems
we expected goode to communicate strongly with us about the production problems and the progress there. the result was the opposite. after a bunch of wrong promises for ski deliveries, we got almost no more information from them. we felt like not being taken for serious (partners) anymore.
c) quality issues
the quality of the skis delivered has decreased throughout the season, not increased. out of these 69 pairs delivered , we already have a proud number of 16 warranty cases (23%), mostly broken or delaminated skis. we cut a broken ski in pieces and found out, there was no kevlar sheet between the base and core of the ski as shown in our construction and arranged with goode. this is no base for us to continue. our goal was to come out with „the perfect ski“, and we believe this is not possible together with goode.
upon the decision of the european db team to split from goode, stephan decided to continue working with goode. so in the end, it looks like a europe/usa split. but the reasons for this are not found in geography, but in production and quality issues goode was not able to solve.
so there will be two new companies on the carbon ski market soon, not just a new company in europe like stephan put it down.
i felt like this information should get out now before more rumors will make their way.
roman
Goode sucks
Man, they really, really suck.
Only 69 pairs?
23% defective de-lam?
layup not per contract specs?
Goode really really really sucks!
Hope you guys can recover.
Best wishes for next season and your new production solution.
So, Roman, since you didn't like Stephan's post you decided to post about how poorly Goode performed. Not only did they not meet your expectations in number of skis produced, but also in the quality of the skis that was produced ( ie missing kevlar, high warranty rate). I am sure the few people who have recieved their skis are really happy to hear this news now. :rolleyes:
You then go on to say that the split was secondary to Stephan deciding to stay with Goode, whom you just trashed.
I am sure Stephan will really be happy with your post as you are basically raising questions about whether or not Stephan and Goode will even be able to produce a decent ski.
I have only chimed in, because after reading his post, which you are "not happy with", and your post, it seems to me that your post is much more inflammatory and much more likely to negatively affect the future of Stephan's ski company.
It is one thing to keep customers informed, but airing dirty laundry in a public forum is probably not a great idea, IMVHO.
good point, LPH - i'd be concerned with legal implications of it...Quote:
Originally Posted by lph
lph-
OTOH Roman is not flinging wild accusations, rather he is stating facts regarding what has come to light in the wake of the current production fiasco. Unless he's lying through his teeth (or keyboard) which I sincerely doubt, the implications of these facts cannot be ignored.
As for the "not happy" part, well, perhaps there was a bit of frustration as Stephen's post elided to said production problems without actually specifying the serious nature of them. Perhaps Roman believed that the prior post indirectly implied that the Euro side of the company left for more-or-less specious reasons, and believed that the customers had a right to know the details.
Roman will likely have to clear these semantics up himself, but note that he did mention that he didn't post in order to start a flamewar, more to set the record straight as far as the facts on the ground that led to the Europeans dissatisfaction and subsequent defection. Perhaps he doesn't transmit the nuance well on the bb, as English is not his first language (one of five he deals with).
I agree with every thing you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-Ungulate
And believe me, as a consumer, it is nice to know that Goode's factory was producing poor quality skis. However, for Roman to post this particular bit of information AFTER the split with Stephan, and KNOWING that Stephan was going to stay with Goode is, IMHO, poor form. Also, it has to make you wonder what motivated him to say those things. (in addition to simply clarifying the issues that led to the split).
In any case, it will be very interesting to see how things play out for the next ski season.
this is more dissappointing than finding out we still have to do the Bendy on P18's. I always dreamed of a pair of DB's .
Yes it will. Clearly there's frustration all the way around. Fundamentally, all new technology often takes longer and has unexpected glitches. The Europe side of db will have an oppty to show how much better they can do. Hopefully they'll raise the bar.HTML Code:In any case, it will be very interesting to see how things play out for the next ski season.
In the meantime I ordered, paid for, and am skiing both the db Surreal and Goode Carbon 82. Awesome skis. Will probably only get better as technology matures.
Everything else is just talk.
I'll stand by my previous post 100%. I'll also stand by the numeric content of Roman's post, and behind GOODE and the skis we are building.
If we were producing a traditional ski, and db had partnered with a manufacturer with a history of building wood core/fiberglass skis, and the numbers were as such this year, we on the North American side would be long gone as well.
However, building a carbon ski is a pioneering project and presents a big mountain to climb. It is not easy. There have been unforeseen challenges, monkey wrenches, and broken skis along the way- none of which for lack of effort or investment; there are 100's of db's sitting in a scrap heap as testament to the various hurdles tripped on this year. At the same time, there are some amazing skis out there that folks are really stoked on. I know, as do many others, that when built right, these are uber high-performance, light, and strong boards. They rip like nothing else, and that in itself is reason and inspiration for us keep this thing moving forward. We are at a point where issues have been solved and I finally feel good about production turning a major corner- ironic amidst the break up of the band.
The inability to produce in quantity and with consistency until now has been an undeniable nightmare, but one not uncommon to new technology and design. The question is really about morphing those short-falls and lessons around into strong, repeatable results. Roman and company, based on the frustrating experience thus far, obviously don't have faith that it can happen with GOODE. That's fine. We think it can, and are continuing on.
Ultimately, beyond all the slander and spin, the verdict will rest with the skis on snow.
--brand questions are in the works; the patents stay in this camp.
801.621.2300 x. 118, M-F, 9-5 mtn. in N.A., if anyone wants to chat on the phone.
^^^^^By that telephone number I guess that you're in Ogden. Got any DB's with freerides you want to loan out? ;)
Even though the wording in Stephan's and Roman's posts is quite different, it doesn't appear to be much disagreement about the facts.
Everyone is disappointed with this year's productionproblems. The european guys felt unconvinced it could ever work with Goode, Stephan felt it was worth continuing the cooperation. I guess the ability to communicate clearly between themselves also played a role.
What will the future bring? I don't think there is enough space for two producers of this kind of niche product. At least one of these ventures will go belly up is my guess. I think a big deciding factor is going to be who builds the highest quality skis in the near future. The american side of db will really have to get their act together quickly in order for this to work. If what Stephan says here is the last in a long row of promises that is NOT fulfilled I think they will have a real problem. On the other hand, the european side has a longer way to go regarding production set-up asf. The brandname issues are also important.
My only wish is that whoever builds the best ski wins. And continues to produce first quality skis.
I wish you both the best of luck. But unfortunately I think only one of the groups will experience it.