the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by weasel1

For both forward lean and heel lift issues, there are a few simple diagnostic exercises that can help you fix these issues.

First, standing in both boots with feet a little less than shoulder width apart, straighten your legs so that your knees are locked without lifting the heel of the boot off of the ground. Now, notice what happens. If you fall on your face, your boots have too much forward lean. Weight should be on balls of feet, heel should be unweighted but touching, or just hovering over the footbed. You should feel balanced, springy and solid.

---

I fall on my face. If I lean the upper body backwards I can almost keep the balance (but I guess that doesn't count ;) ). The Garmont Radium have only one forward lean position. The external mechanism looks like it could be replaced, but I don't think they offer replacements with other lean options.

Adding ramp inside the boot in the toe area is out of the question, there's already little room there.

I use Dynafit Vertical ST, which adds more forward lean (heel 10 mm higher than toe). I did the tests on flat ground with boots only. On the ski it will be even worse.

I guess my best option will be to shim up the Dynafit toe piece?

I am surprised that touring boots add too much forward lean, aren't they in general less aggressive than alpine boots?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by weasel1

Now relax, bend your knees. Weight should now feel evenly distributed across the foot, with most concentrated under the mid-foot. Does your heel immediately bear weight, or drop some distance before it hits the footbed? If it drops, you need one of two things (or both). If your weight with knees locked was on your toes, or you fell on your face, you need less forward lean. If your weight w/ knees locked was on the balls of your feet and you felt relatively balanced, you need to put a heel lift in the boot to bring the footbed up to meet your heel.

---

When I bend the knees slightly, the weight is on the ball of the foot. When I bend a bit more, the weight is evenly distributed across the foot.

The heel drops a little bit.

I didn't do the rest of the tests. However, when my binding adds 10 mm rise in the heel, I am not sure they will be so relevant to do with boots only. I guess I should make an inclined board to simulate the added lean, and do the tests on that.

Arne- If you fell on your face (I did that to an orthopedic doc once...he still did a great job on my shoulder anyway.) you have too much forward lean. Do you have sizable calves? A thicker calf creates more forward lean by pushing the lower leg shafts forward, like your own built-in spoiler.

Make sure you have removed any spoiler or other extraneous plastic add-ons behind the calf. You may also benefit from a little heel lift. This will address what I am guessing is some dynamic heel movement and also lift your calf muscle out of the boot a bit.

If this doesn't work, you should discuss bending back the rear spoiler on the upper cuff with your boot fitter. I haven't done this on a Radium, so not sure how amenable to this it will be, but it really helps if you can do it.

Do the rest of the tests, but this is almost certainly a significant contributing factor to your issue. Too much forward lean will float the heel and result in significant movement (causing blisters).

Thanks for the quick feedback.

My calves are normal, I think. I'll retry the test with the original liners, this was with zipfits which are higher volume than the originals. I haven't checked if they add more behind the calf.

There are no spoilers or other add-ons.

Note that the blistering only happens when walking, never when skiing. I don't really notice much heel lift when skiing.

When walking, the cuff levers the foot forward, and even the best walk modes are going to result in some movement. Stabilizing the foot and leg in the boot will help reduce this. You will notice a significant difference in your skiing and touring if you can address the lean issue.

Thanks, I appreciate your feedback. I did some more experiments:

First with the Zipfit liners

The first two tests were done clicked in to the bindings to get the extra heel ramp.

Have a friend hold a plumb-bob next to you, against your shoulder (roughly in the middle of your body from front to back). With knees slightly flexed, shins touching the front of the boot, center mass should be over the mid-foot.

Seems to be about mid foot.

With legs straight, knees locked, center mass should be over the ball of the foot.

Seems to be about middle of toes.

Next, find something about 1 foot or so high to jump off of. Standing on top, jump off and land centered over and evenly on both feet, flat on the boot sole. Did your toe go BANG? If so, double check the shell fit...probably too long.

No bang, landing was OK.

Lastly, standing on one foot, jump up and down landing and taking off as flat on the sole as possible. Do this 6-7 times rapidly on each foot. Pay attention to your foot inside the boot. Does it move a lot? Is it coming off of the footbed and falling back down a lot, or just weighting and unweighting? Do you fall over? If so, which way?

It does not really move, just unweight. I don't fall over. Same for both feet.

Then with original liners

First, standing in both boots with feet a little less than shoulder width apart, straighten your legs so that your knees are locked without lifting the heel of the boot off of the ground. Now, notice what happens.

Still falling on my face (not literally ;) ), but might be slightly less than with the zipfits, hard to tell.

Lastly, standing on one foot, jump up and down landing and taking off as flat on the sole as possible. Do this 6-7 times rapidly on each foot. Pay attention to your foot inside the boot. Does it move a lot? Is it coming off of the footbed and falling back down a lot, or just weighting and unweighting? Do you fall over? If so, which way?

The foot moves around, even though the toe buckles are max tight and I have a thin bootboard. I don't fall over.

Sounds better with the Zipfits. I would try a .5cm foam wedge under the heel of the liner (stick it to the bootboard). See how it works and let me know. You also might consider an intuition liner. I rather prefer them to the Zipfit for applications like yours.

Recap : My issues seem to be solved. Coule of hours on the local slope,no probs whatsover in the feet.

Only a bit of lack of support under the arches but that is probably due that I cut away that part of the footboard in my earlier failed tests...


So problem seemed to have been too narrow boots...
I today realized that I had forgotten that you dont have to be in constant pain when skiing!!!
Hopefully the probs would be now behind,two weeks of charging and touring should will give a clue on that one in the forthcoming days.

I have tried to investigate my issue with cold toes in my new boots, Garmont Radium MP 25.5. I have previously owned Garmont MegaRide MP 26 and Adrenalin MP 26, and did not have this issue with them. However, they felt a bit large for me, and accoring to mntlion's size advice shell size 25/25.5 is the right for me.

I almost always get cold toes, even when the temp is just slightly below freezing. I like to buckle down tight for the downhill, and that is when the problem starts.

Initially, I thought the issue was caused by the boot being slightly narrow, since I found I get small creases under the foot after a days use. I also notice pressure on the outside of my foot when walking even with the buckles loose. I tried adding a thin bootboard, which moves the foot up to where the shell is wider, and the creases disappeared or were smaller. The pressure on the outside foot did not disappear. I still got cold toes. It is only the toes getting cold, the rest of the foot is OK. The toes can get really painfully cold, to the extent that I would almost be unable to focus properly on the skiing.

I noticed that the ski socks get very wet during ski touring. I tried adding a plastic bag between a very thin nylon liner and the ski socks, which would keep the socks dry and thus better at insulating. Still cold toes. I tried dropping the morning coffee, which could improve circulation (accoring to a friend who has had great success with this for his Reynold's). This did help somewhat.

My conclusion is that the circulation is being cut off, probably from sub optimal boot fit. One potential cause is slightly narrow last. However, when I checked the inside of the shell I noticed Garmont has used rivets attaching the silicone-ish plastic (sealing the lower part of the overlap) to the rest of the shell, and these rivets are not [insert correct English term for depression in plastic making the rivets go flush with the plastic], unlike the rivets for the boot hinges and so on. Thus this rivet protrudes a few mm from the plastic, making a pressure point that is not completely absorbed by the liner.

One of the rivets is located just about in the middle of the top of my forefoot, where I have large superficial blood vessels [here I am trying to express the fact that they are close to the skin] meant to supply my feet and toes with blood. Coincidence? I think not. Thank you Garmont!

This adds to my previous Radium grievings:
- lower toe box making my big toe nails go blue
- forward lean lock that does not always lock
- the new upper buckle lock system that sometimes freezes shut, and forces me to completely unbuckle the boots to get proper freedom of movement during walking instead of the old hitch system which kept the buckles somewhat in place.

So unless someone can convince me that my blood vessel theory is stoopid, I am looking for new boots. Short list for my low volume feet: Dynafit Titan, Dynafit Zzeus, Garmont Axon (can I forgive Garmont?). Any opinions here would be appreciated. I know the Titans had an issue with buckle placement for smaller sizes, but this is hopefully solved now.

Sorry for cluttering an otherwise mostly informative thread with my rant.

weasel1: I have postponed the forward lean issue until I decide which boots to go for. I have bought Dynafit's carving plates, which I planned to cut in half and mount under the front binding. This would approximately give me 0mm heel lift in the bindings, compared to the stock 10mm.

Arne, I think most of your problems relate to the garmonts liner, if you use that.

1.The liners stichings are at utterly wrong places resulting in poor fit
2.soft=poor support & comfort
3.thin & shitty materiels=cold
4.stiching exaggerate the known radium issue,small toebox with weird rivets.


I tried to use the original liners and ended up ordering palaus (similar to intuitions) after couple of hours of skiing. No problems with forementioned issues after that.
And the last shape was kinky for me as well.Had to punch room for the big toes and widen it 5mm at the second buckle. Now they fit well.
Check out the intuitions (scarpa intuitions) from telemark pyrenees and punch the boot. Way cheaper than buying a new pair.

can you try the same boots, with a different liner to see if the shell or the liner is at fault?

also, different, or no footbeds make it better for the cold toes?

do you get the cold toes, with the boots on, inside? (then it is for sure a circulation thing)

maybe, with all the other issues you have listed, just dump the boots and start fresh..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meathelmet

Arne, I think most of your problems relate to the garmonts liner, if you use that.

1.The liners stichings are at utterly wrong places resulting in poor fit
2.soft=poor support & comfort
3.thin & shitty materiels=cold
4.stiching exaggerate the known radium issue,small toebox with weird rivets.


I tried to use the original liners and ended up ordering palaus (similar to intuitions) after couple of hours of skiing. No problems with forementioned issues after that.
And the last shape was kinky for me as well.Had to punch room for the big toes and widen it 5mm at the second buckle. Now they fit well.
Check out the intuitions (scarpa intuitions) from telemark pyrenees and punch the boot. Way cheaper than buying a new pair.

---

I got warrantied liners from garmont for my endorphin's ,they look exactly like the lace-up liners that came in the boot BUT the replacement stock Garmont liners have a Palau label on them ... SO , I am about 99% sure the stock garmont liners are made for Garmont by Palau

Other than getting them on warranty for nothing ... I would pass on Palau and go intuition

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XXX-er

I got warrantied liners from garmont for my endorphin's ,they look exactly like the lace-up liners that came in the boot BUT the replacement stock Garmont liners have a Palau label on them ... SO , I am about 99% sure the stock garmont liners are made for Garmont by Palau

Other than getting them on warranty for nothing ... I would pass on Palau and go intuition

---

To clarify, i meant in this case the palau wrap arounds that are similar to intuition power wraps. And I fully agree on going straight to intuitions. The palaus are okish,but seem to suffer for deformation during warm weather/long days. And they seem to pack out way fast. Now after 40days or something,they are due to get replaced...Not good.

The replacements are going to be the Scarpa (intuition) Speed Liners,ordering them tomorrow. In euroland they cost about 140€s,but the equalent intuitions ordered from the states would have been around 200€ after taxes,shipping and etc...

yeah I have the lace-ups from a couple of yrs ago ,they wore thru at the heel on the inside of the liner after 30 days and Garmont replaced them no quesions asked on warranty

I actualy have 3 liners I can ski in that boot the Garmont Gfits ,conform'ables and the power wraps from my alpine boots (which I havent tried yet) but so far the conform'ables I like better than the G-fit

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mntlion

can you try the same boots, with a different liner to see if the shell or the liner is at fault?

also, different, or no footbeds make it better for the cold toes?

do you get the cold toes, with the boots on, inside? (then it is for sure a circulation thing)

maybe, with all the other issues you have listed, just dump the boots and start fresh..

---

I have used both stock Garmont liners and Zipfit liners. The Zips are much better for skiing, but I get cold toes in both liners.

I have tried to use custom made footbeds (don't know the brand) as well as cheaper foot beds that you bake in the oven at home (Sole?). Both give me cold toes. I haven't tried without footbeds, but the boots would be way too roomy that way. I have cranked them down almost max with the footbeds.

I tried to wear the boots in room temp, that is when I discovered the rivet issue. I buckled down like I do for the downhill, and immediately felt a pressure point on top of the foot. I investigated the shell and found the rivet at the exact same location. The boot became quite uncomfortable quite quickly, so I did not wear it for as long as I planned. The toes did feel slightly cold, but it was hard to tell.

It is possible that Intuitions could provide better padding for the rivet, but they will eventually pack out, and then the issue is back. I find that the Zips don't pack out in the same way as the Garmont/Palau liners, and I prefer them for that (and other) reason(s). But even though the rivet seems to be quite well padded by the Zip, it still creates a pressure point.

In addition, I have had big issues with the room for my big toes. The local boot fitter has tried to expand the toe box, but he has limited tools, and has not been able to help.

So even though new boots are a lot more expensive than just new liners, I am considering going that route now, since it is even more expensive to first buy new liners and then find that I need to buy new boots anyway.

strange that you need the buckles cranked down that hard, and still need more toe room?

I'm voting that they are just the wrong shape for you.

I get cold toes no matter what, snug fitting boots but they're not too small. For me, my toes are just too sensitive now days. After being out in the cold and freezing my foot for so many years, that's just how it is. I can be skiing on 50* days and still get cold toes.

I tried on a pair of Dynafit Titan MP 25 today. The shell fit seems right, or perhaps slightly long (18 mm?), but I reckon that is OK for touring. The width also seemed fine.

I first tried with the stock liners, uncooked. The initial impression was great! The toe area was a bit tight, and even more so when walking, but I expect this is something that can be easily expanded during cooking, right?

I then tried them with my Zips. Ah, that was nice! The fit felt really great, and there was ample toe room.

In both cases I did not have to crank the buckles down all the way, I have more margin for tightening further than I have on the Radiums.

Using the minimum forward lean position I tried weasel1's balance test, and they were much better than Radium. I could balance with the knees stretched out, although the balance point was almost at the tip of the toes. I only had to bend the knees slightly to get the balance point under the ball of foot or center of foot.

The local shop offered me a good price on Titan (-30%) so I have almost decided to get them. I'll need to try them on more to make sure the fit is OK.

Some questions:
- Are MP 25 and 25,5 the same shell size?
- Is the buckle conflict issue solved?
- I have read about the issue with self adjusting canting, but that was seemingly solved with duct tape, which is ok for me. Are there any other issues?

Thanks,
Arne

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arne_and

I tried on a pair of Dynafit Titan MP 25 today. The shell fit seems right, or perhaps slightly long (18 mm?), but I reckon that is OK for touring. The width also seemed fine.

---

maybe, but if you have the next shell size down it will be an 8mm fit and that is MUCH closer to the 5-15mm goal. your call, and only you can tell how they feel to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arne_and

Some questions:
- Are MP 25 and 25,5 the same shell size?
- Is the buckle conflict issue solved?
- I have read about the issue with self adjusting canting, but that was seemingly solved with duct tape, which is ok for me. Are there any other issues?

Thanks,
Arne

---

1) yup, should be, but just check the boot sole length

2) maybe, you tell us. you are the only one that can feel what is going on. boot fitters, or sales staff can react to what you are feeling, not tell you what you are feeling.

3) other then a 18mm shell fit that is a bit of a worry, nope, buy and ski.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mntlion

maybe, but if you have the next shell size down it will be an 8mm fit and that is MUCH closer to the 5-15mm goal. your call, and only you can tell how they feel to you.

---

Too bad that most of the dynafits stop at 25,like Titan and ZZeus...
We small footed are quite shafted in that sense,luckily at least factor comes in smaller sizes in the "stiff touring boot" category.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mntlion

maybe, but if you have the next shell size down it will be an 8mm fit and that is MUCH closer to the 5-15mm goal. your call, and only you can tell how they feel to you.



1) yup, should be, but just check the boot sole length

2) maybe, you tell us. you are the only one that can feel what is going on. boot fitters, or sales staff can react to what you are feeling, not tell you what you are feeling.

3) other then a 18mm shell fit that is a bit of a worry, nope, buy and ski.

---

1) Did that, and you're right, they're the same.

2) I thought this was an external issue. I'll (hopefully) soon find out though.

3) Bought and will hopefully be skied this weekend. :D

This thread needs to be stickied

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Corky

Hey mntlion, where can one purchase boot sole shims? One of the bootfitters in town has them but his suck ass (slippery as hell and last for about 2 days of my usual hiking around). I need 0.5 cm if it matters.

I did try a DIY method - I cut off the bottom of an unused old boot and am trying to find a way to grind it down to size but I'm having trouble finding a good tool to pull that off (my belt sander isn't quite doing the job). Thoughts?

Yes, I'm a freak too. Oh and any idea how to make the cuff of a Falcon 10 more upright?

Thank you sir!!

---

Do you mean something like this? Something Chanlin at our shop got to build this year :-)

http://s857.photobucket.com/albums/a...ransformation/

I have a semi-related question. Sorry if this is the wrong place.

My boots fit (rather) well, though with broad forefeet (EE-EEE) and relatively narrow heels this took a lot of work, the whole footbed/punching/grinding/etc/etc/etc. Also, I ski with footbed buckles (both) either on the loosest click, or completely unbuckled, and the calf buckles at the 3rd and 4th from loosest. I know it's very odd, but long legs means my calves are above the boots.

All of that is kind of an aside, but should give an idea of how weird my feet are and what a pain it can be to get new boots (even though I use a great fitter in my area). My boots are from the 2004-2005 season, they've got around 140-150 days on them. Is there a good way for me to tell when I need to deal with getting a set of replacement boots, or can I just ski them until bits come off?

Well our experience here and talking to all the reps in our area we all think that boots will properly support your feet 50-70 days of normal full days of skiing. Many people put way more than that on boots but if we are talking about proper support(liners at the very least) it's a good rule of thumb. Doesn't mean that you can't use the shells longer and just change the liner but that is a crap-shoot since there will come a time where parts will start falling off(buckles breaking and what-not).

I know I have a pair of boots that has over 100 days on them and I still ski them from time-to-time...they work but are pretty squishy(I have changed the liners twice though and have a few extra parts laying about ;-) ).

In the end your feet will tell you if you need new liners or at the very least a little work. In the depends on how much pain you can deal with and your pocketbook. Both can be a huge factor in happy feet. Sooo need to go skiing right now!!!

I ski in a colder temps, so I think that boots last a bit longer?
100-200 days, if the boot fits right to start with. A boot a bit too big, will become a lot too big in 50 days, so that might be why some people find the boot packs out too much?

I have some shells with 500+ days on them that I use for early season work still. 3rd liners, but same shell.

Shoot dang...500 days and still in service. I would have given up on them no matter how great they were a few 100 days sooner...but I do like to spoil myself new boots pretty often ;-)

I fit boots for a living, and I hate getting new boots for myself. I ski on boots that my store doesn't even sell, and have a backup pair so I dont have to find something new...

Anyone have any suggestions for shin bite...not bang, bite. Got new Nordica Hot Rod 125's last year. Stock liners bite the hell out of my shins. Not sure if it's the hardness of the foam or what but my shin bones don't like it....even just standing in my living room. If I put my old Lange liners in the pain is totally gone but the Lange liners are on their last legs and I hate to waste a brand new pair of stock Nordica liners if I don't have to.

are the old liners taller?

different curve to them on the shin?

is the bite at the top of the boot?

is the bite at the sides of the tongue?

naked pics of your girlfriend?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mntlion

are the old liners taller?

different curve to them on the shin?

is the bite at the top of the boot?

is the bite at the sides of the tongue?

naked pics of your girlfriend?

---

The liners are the same height. The bite is at the top right on the ridge of the shin bone. The Nordica tongue is definitely stiffer. The Lange tongue is flimsy and much thinner in comparison. The weird thing is that the Nordica liners seem like way better quality but the Lange liners cause me no grief at all.

And I swear it's more from side-to-side rubbing as opposed to direct linear pressure points. That's why I think maybe it's the stiffness of the foam. I have skinny legs and my shin bones are pretty exposed.

I tried heat molding. I tried shaving down the front of the tongue (because there were 2 stiffening ribs that ran the length of the tongue). I tried adjusting the cant to reduce side to side rubbing. Tight buckled, loose buckled, non-buckled.....all the same result.

I think I may have just solved my own problem....forget about it and get new liners. Unless someone has a better solution?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Skrkn92ToV8/TK..." width="300">

the nordica liners might be a more open curve (for a less skinny leg?) try a hot blow dryer on the tongue and reshape it to a smaller diameter curve?

try the power strap around the liner only (not the shell)

buy some intuitions (ask intuition what model/size to get)

find some closeout langes, and use them for liner only (and send me the shells for parts)

Closeout Langes.....brilliant. You need shell parts? I have a pair of orange Freeride 120's if you want em? Sans liners of course.

just need the buckles. can you unscrew them, and mail them?

PM sent.....

I'm heading to the bootfitter where I bought the boots tomorrow but I figured i'd see what anybody on here had to say.

I just got a pair of lange rs 130 boots and have about five days of skiing in them. they feel great and the toe and front half of my foot width is perfect. my only complaint is the heel feels a little wide and i can feel a little lateral slop in my heel. whats my best option for taking up a little volume in the heel?
im coming from a banshee pro and a seth morrison ft. the rs130 shell feels infinitely better than either of the two and i highly recommend it.

What are you using for a footbed?

is the heel slip,

1) side to side (this is lateral)

2) up and down

3) forward and back?

some thin "L" pads around the sides of the heel
thicker socks
footbed with deeper cup
tongue padding (to drive the heel back more)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mntlion

is the heel slip,

1) side to side (this is lateral)

2) up and down

3) forward and back?

some thin "L" pads around the sides of the heel
thicker socks
footbed with deeper cup
tongue padding (to drive the heel back more)

---

1. side to side

i'm using blueprint footbeds. i've used them for years and never had a problem/would like to keep using them.

i'll ask about the L pads. thanks.

Ok got a dumb / hopefully easy boot question -- problem for me is I haven't found a great bootfitter in the area (Bozeman -- any suggestions?):

Boots I am in: BD Factors 27.0 stock liner and footbed, no custom bootwork. Prob 100-120 days on shells and liners

Problem: I believe I am slightly bow legged and this is affecting my ability to properly edge the skis. My right leg does not bother me much, but the left leg is driving me crazy. I can't easily initiate the inside edge on the left ski, and I don't feel like this ski runs flat on the snow. My skiing stance is noticeably bowed out at the knees. I sometimes get pain/sweeling in the sixth toe region.

Currently I have the boot cuff alignment set all the way out on the left leg and neutral on the right leg.

Question: In situations like these, are custom footbeds often enough to alleviate this type of stance issue or is canting going to be required? Is canting even possible on boots this old?

What are you using now for a footbed? If nothing, a properly aligned footbed will certainly help. How much depends on the degree of misalignment. Basically, you want to creata platform under your foot that allows the ski to sit flat while your foot stays like it wants to, and is supported. This can be accomplished a number of ways, I would start with the footbed before shimming bindings or grinding bootsoles.