Tutorial: Molding Intuition Liners

Not enough toe room is a recurrent theme. It makes sense that the stock Intuition toe caps won't fit everybody's feet or toe room preferences so I made my own. Lots of duct tape (gray works best) and some spare very thin, dense foam ski straps you use to keep skis together. Remove the velcro from the straps, wrap toe with foam then duct tape and repeat for a dense, noncompressable custom fit toe cap. Just plain duct tape will do but it takes more tape and you need something on your toes first like the toe of a thin dress sock. Stuck toes are not happy toes.

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Originally Posted by TyeStick

My third trip out to the shop, I was finally set(or so I thought). I used a utility knife to cut a hole in the side of the box, I inserted a hair dryer, set it to full and let it blast. With the thermometer reinserted, and hair dryer on, the temp quickly hit 235 degrees, then 240 and hovered between 240-250 for around 20 minutes before the thermal switch kicked in. Success, in essence I had a boot heater/former thing with little to no cost.

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Based on TyeStick's experiment here, I wonder if keeping the liner in the boot, making a "cap" of some sort for the liner, and then sticking a hair dryer through that cap and running it for 20 minutes or so would do the same job as the "heat stacks" that they are recommending now. Never seen one of these heat stack contraptions so I don't know exactly how it works. Anyone?

Does anyone have a suggestion on liner sizing? I am going to purchase a pair of power wraps and want them for a 29.5/30 Crispi shell. Since the Intuitions only come in full sizes would it be best to go with a 29 or a 30? I am 13 street shoe but usually wear a 29.5 boot.

^^^get the larger liner.

Bumpin this awesome thread because I'm baking tonight.

Just got intuitions and am trying to figure out whether to cook them with my custom footbeds or not...they are almost unbearably tight with them in and pretty damn tight with them out. The toes also feel cramped regardless..thoughts?

^^^^^^^^^^ Are you test fitting them without baking?

For the umteen millionth time - you can't test fit Intuition liners that haven't been baked.

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Originally Posted by The SnowShow

Just got intuitions and am trying to figure out whether to cook them with my custom footbeds or not...they are almost unbearably tight with them in and pretty damn tight with them out. The toes also feel cramped regardless..thoughts?

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I just had some baked (like 30 minutes ago) without them in, then put my foot in with caps,footbeds, and socks. It was the most mind numbing, excruciatingly miserable experience of my life....Next to marriage. After all was said and done the boot is fucking sex! My shit was fitting pretty well with stock liners, and I only went the intuition route because my toes were getting cold. It's a bonus that my boot fits even more amazing now

I have a very tight 1cm shell fit in Kryptons and did my 2nd remold (3rd overall) with footbeds.
Since each remold tends to thin out the liner, I was hoping all would be fine.
Felt tight but OK after cooling, but on first day of skiing had numbness all day.
Trying again.
I'm guessing this will be the last shot with these liners before they're cooked out so I'd better get it right.

The question is whether or not to use footbeds.

My choices, as I see them, are mold with footbed and thicker sock or thin sock w/out footbed.
However:
Since I cooked them to fit the footbeds, will molding sans footbed make them too loose, now?
IOW, have I already taken too much volume out of the liner or will it come back with a recook?

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Originally Posted by Roxtar

I have a very tight 1cm shell fit in Kryptons and did my 2nd remold (3rd overall) with footbeds.
Since each remold tends to thin out the liner, I was hoping all would be fine.
Felt tight but OK after cooling, but on first day of skiing had numbness all day.
Trying again.
I'm guessing this will be the last shot with these liners before they're cooked out so I'd better get it right.

The question is whether or not to use footbeds.

My choices, as I see them, are mold with footbed and thicker sock or thin sock w/out footbed.
However:
Since I cooked them to fit the footbeds, will molding sans footbed make them too loose, now?
IOW, have I already taken too much volume out of the liner or will it come back with a recook?

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If you are finding them too tight with the footbed I would get rid of it and cook/mold without. The foam does expand again with the cook, but I am not sure if it returns to the "pre-foot bed" state.

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Originally Posted by Bird Blaster

The foam does expand again with the cook, but I am not sure if it returns to the "pre-foot bed" state.

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That's my quandary.
It does me no good to recook w/out footbeds if they are going now to be too loose.
I'd be better off remolding w/ footbeds and thicker socks, then.

Roxtar - what kind of footbeds do you have? Can you grind them? You want to go with a thin footbed in this application.

Roxtar--Yes the liners go shrinky dink each time you heat cycle them. But I wouldn't try to mold them in thick socks. You're doomed to have slop down the road and will have to use even thicker socks later.

On footbeds. I'm sure there are tons of folks out there that swear by their footbeds, as I used to. I paid enough money for them that I just couldn't bear to not use them, but I now go w/o footbeds in all my Intuitions and I have never been happier w my boots. This may sound counterintuitive, but I would mold up the liners with the THINNEST sock you got--if you are committed to the footbeds then take Wild4's suggestion of the thinnest one you can put in. I know some folks need footbeds to correct stance issues, but for the 75% of those with normal feet and stance like me, you'll be happier without the beds.

I always mold up the liner 1st time with a Bridgedale Micro fit sock--those things are thin, thin, thin. For the first 20-25 days I ski only with those socks--which is about all I can fit in there. After that, the liners pack out some, and I move to the Bridgedale Ultra fit. Then the next 60-80 days I spend with those socks. As I get to 100+ days in the Intuitions I usually get another set of liners and start the process over again. IMO if you mold up a thick sock to begin with, you are gonna end up with a slop fit after you ski in them a while... and you are going to have to wear wool hunting socks.

And one more thing. Don't overtighten the buckles when you mold the liners. That compresses the liner too much. I stay very light on the buckle tension when molding.

I always mold my liners using compression socks. This naturally mimics what happens when we ski - the feet/legs compress and get smaller to a degree once they're buckled tight into a boot.

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Originally Posted by Kim Jong-un

Roxtar--Yes the liners go shrinky dink each time you heat cycle them. But I wouldn't try to mold them in thick socks. You're doomed to have slop down the road and will have to use even thicker socks later.

On footbeds. I'm sure there are tons of folks out there that swear by their footbeds, as I used to. I paid enough money for them that I just couldn't bear to not use them, but I now go w/o footbeds in all my Intuitions and I have never been happier w my boots. This may sound counterintuitive, but I would mold up the liners with the THINNEST sock you got--if you are committed to the footbeds then take Wild4's suggestion of the thinnest one you can put in. I know some folks need footbeds to correct stance issues, but for the 75% of those with normal feet and stance like me, you'll be happier without the beds.

I always mold up the liner 1st time with a Bridgedale Micro fit sock--those things are thin, thin, thin. For the first 20-25 days I ski only with those socks--which is about all I can fit in there. After that, the liners pack out some, and I move to the Bridgedale Ultra fit. Then the next 60-80 days I spend with those socks. As I get to 100+ days in the Intuitions I usually get another set of liners and start the process over again. IMO if you mold up a thick sock to begin with, you are gonna end up with a slop fit after you ski in them a while... and you are going to have to wear wool hunting socks.

And one more thing. Don't overtighten the buckles when you mold the liners. That compresses the liner too much. I stay very light on the buckle tension when molding.

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So do you think the liners will work without footbeds at this point?
They would have to expand to make up the space previously taken by the footbed.

Roxtar- do you need footbeds to correct something? If yes then mold with the beds again--but use a very thin sock. The compression sock thing sounds interesting but those things are expensive, like $50/pair, and I'm not sure you could fit a footbed under them prior to molding as those are a struggle to put on naked foot.

You may want to have someone look at that footbed as Wild4 states and see if there is some shaving you need to reduce the volume of that bed so you are not numb. If it was me and I had the normal volume PW's or Lux liners with the foam in the footbed, I would take the chance of molding w/o the footbeds. The foam in the footbed area will expand again--maybe not like the first time but I think it will expand enough.

You don't say whether you are baking them in an oven or in a shop w a blower. On subsequent bakes, I think the temp/time thing becomes very critical to avoid too much shrinkage and you are less prone to overcooking them on a blower IMO. The next best thing is baking them in a convection oven with a fan vs a standard non-convection oven.

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Originally Posted by Kim Jong-un

Roxtar- do you need footbeds to correct something? If yes then mold with the beds again--but use a very thin sock. The compression sock thing sounds interesting but those things are expensive, like $50/pair, and I'm not sure you could fit a footbed under them prior to molding as those are a struggle to put on naked foot.

You may want to have someone look at that footbed as Wild4 states and see if there is some shaving you need to reduce the volume of that bed so you are not numb. If it was me and I had the normal volume PW's or Lux liners with the foam in the footbed, I would take the chance of molding w/o the footbeds. The foam in the footbed area will expand again--maybe not like the first time but I think it will expand enough.

You don't say whether you are baking them in an oven or in a shop w a blower. On subsequent bakes, I think the temp/time thing becomes very critical to avoid too much shrinkage and you are less prone to overcooking them on a blower IMO. The next best thing is baking them in a convection oven with a fan vs a standard non-convection oven.

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I don't need the footbed. That's why I'm considering going without. The question is if I can still get a correct fit without one at this point.
I'm using a convection oven

i just gave up with 3 days into putting power wraps into my <1 finger fit kryptons. The volume is just too low and I do need foot beds to support my collapsing arch. I swapped my powerwraps over to my BD quadrants and hope they stiffen them up.

I molded my Scarpa/Intuition liners tonight using the Bosch variable heat gun with a nozle and length of 3/4" auto heater hose to get the heat to the toe, with the boots upside down and a t-shirt covering most of the cuff to trap the heat but still allow airflow out. The first liner I did at "250" degrees on the dial for 10 minutes, but I don't think it was hot enough, needed more time or a higher temp. It molded somewhat, but nothing like when I had a shop do it using their oven.

I cooked the second liner for 10 minutes at "250", then checked the internal temp with a laser heat gauge and was only getting about 220 in the liner. So I cranked up the heat gun to "290" and gave it another ten minutes, and this time the gauge said 250 in the liner. Slid my foot into the liner and it was definitely ready, nice and gushy. Mold came out real nice, except that I left the Scarpa insoles in the liners and the higher temp cook shrunk the insole to about 2/3 of it's original size....oooops. (The lower temp on the first boot had no effect on the insole.)

Might hit the first liner again, but will probably ski it first and see how it feels. If anything I'll just do a local cook with the heat gun on the toe from the outside and wear a thicker toe cap, as I did with the second liner on my right foot, which is a bit longer than my left.

bump for molding season!!

i had good success with the "rice sock" fill a sock with rice, nuke it for 7 minutes and slam it into the liners already in the boot, then let it hang out for 10 minutes. then insert foot.

Yoopers boot spreader pics aren't showing up for me and I'm not seeing photos in the other intuition threads either....

Was planning on making a spreader but I'm not sure how to go about it.

Help?

Check your computer^^^ Pictures are showing up on mine.
Just molded some Maestrales Monday using the spreader.Noticed that this boot almost does not need the spreader with the hinged tongue though.Another perfect fit,thanks Yooper.

Should have clarified - i can see almost all the picturrs in threads, but like half of the ones in yoopers post are tiny empty boxes with x's. Others show fine in this thread and others.

Mind pm'ing me spreader photos so i can figure out what's involved in making one?

Just a note of warning to people. Obviously you wouldn't want to cook your liners with custom insoles in them, but even if you dont have custom insoles and just have say a superfoot insole or something that you potentially wouldn't want to replace it might be best to cook the liners, then put the footbed. I didn't think anything of it, cuz I was cooking with some stock insoles (I know why buy intuitions then put stock beds in em, w/e) But after having been heated when I put my foot in, the the edges of the footbeds were warm enough apparently that they curled over all around the edge. Now I dont really care personally, its a stock insole, so I can't say I'm sad about it being fuked. But if say you went out and bought a $50 insole or something and dont wanna have to replace that w/o ever wearing it might be wise to heat w/o them in. Just an observation.

Props to yooper - and everyone who has contributed to this thread ...

Just finished cookin' M.'s Intuition liners with apparent Success --

- placed the heated liner in a plastic shopping bag and used igBand's butter-y PAM Spray to ease ,,, reInsertion ...

( note - this was a pair of external tongue Scarpas, so spreading and re-insertion were Not difficult -- )


toe caps - check.

Custom insoles - Superfeet Kork ...
[ Do Not heat these with your liners or you will lose the Alignment Correction of the insole ! ! ]


M. says, ' ... they feel like Socks ! '

... On-Snow next weekend ...


Thanks, yooper - This Is a great thread ...


skiJ

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My throw-in for this thread...


I molded my liners to my feet using the baking method... Like this better than the rice because I'm ensured an even heating, and it also molds the outside of the liner to the boot shell.

I did use the rice method a couple nights ago though... the fit was perfect in my boots everywhere except my left ankle, didn't want to go through the hassle of rebaking the whole liner, so I put enough rice in a sock to just fill up the ankle portion of the boot (2lbs?), folded up a beer koozie and taped it to my ankle, everything is wonderful now.

hey now! grabbed a pair of FT First Chair's. we sell them at the shop. i've never skied in a three piece or Intuition. baked them yesterday and dropped a new 'no post' footbed in with toe cap's and med weight sox. they feel so good in my living room. i'm actually going to use them as my side/backcountry/soft snow boot. anyone touring in these bad larry's? waiting on 'top to bottom' at the local hill to give them a ride. we need snow:mad:

^ yes people tour in Full Tilts. Why just your backcountry/ soft snow boot instead of everyday? I have the First Chairs and 6, 8, and 10 flex tongues... Love the swappability.

^again, this will be my first time in a 'three', and an Intuition. i'm more accustomed to a 130 plug style, four buckle overlapper.
i actually love to ski 'ice'. 'world cup' Tuesday's are some of my favorite day's on the hill. 35 second 'beer league' racing makes my wicked happy. not, convinced the FT will work with my 187cm, 23 meter race stick's. but, who know's? either way, i'm stoked to try something different. touring boot's have, never yet, felt good to me. woot.:biggrin:.

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Originally Posted by buttahflake

hey now! grabbed a pair of FT First Chair's. we sell them at the shop. i've never skied in a three piece or Intuition. baked them yesterday and dropped a new 'no post' footbed in with toe cap's and med weight sox. they feel so good in my living room. i'm actually going to use them as my side/backcountry/soft snow boot. anyone touring in these bad larry's? waiting on 'top to bottom' at the local hill to give them a ride. we need snow:mad:

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I know quite a few people who tour in FT's. They are a really light boot, so its definately not a bad choice at all. There is also a thread somewhere around here where blurred lays out how to mod your FT's with BD tech sole blocks so you can ski dynafits with em.

Bumping this instead of starting a new thread. Just molded some power wraps for my Tecnica Cochise's at my boot fitter a few days ago and have a few questions.

First, I feel like my left top buckle/strap may have been too tight during the molding. Didn't feel overly tight in the shop, but there is a clear imprint where the shell of the boot ends on my right boot. It looks like the foam compressed more on that boot, which resulted in me needing to tighten the top power strap/buckle more. It's on the right boot too, but not nearly as bad. There is also a crease where the overlap starts. Looks like the liner got caught in the shell. Is this fairly normal? I probably need to re-bake is my guess.

Here's some pics.

Attachment 106963

Attachment 106964

Attachment 106965

Second, what's the usual time frame for break in? These things are like vices on my feet. Toe caps and extra padding for my high instep were used but I barely made it through the day. I'm hoping all I need is a few miserable days and I'll be good.

Just wanted to note that I did the the boiling water method on a used pair of intuitions. Used an oven bag and put the boiling water in the boot for ~9 minutes. Worked like a charm. This is my first pair of intuitions and they were used and already formed to the shell on the outside of the liner so Im not sure how it would work on a new pair.

Bern43,

What's worked for me...

You should have only buckled the buckles slightly firm when molding the liner. Never buckle it up like you would when skiing (ie if you are on the 3rd notch skiing, then I would think you might be on the 1st notch when the liner is puffed up and molding. I do not retighten buckles until the liner is 100% cooled down. Also, don't keep flexing the boot while the liner is cooling. One flex to set the heel and that's it.

Assuming the strap indentation is just from overtightening the strap and not over buckling or over flexing, I would not rebake the liner just for that strap indentation. You could heat it locally and it will expand out if it bothers you.

Re the second issue. Post bake, the liners should very comfortable. They do pack out and get more comfortable after a bit, but you shouldn't need to break them in like a regular liner.

I think that top strap/buckle on the Cochises is what messed me up. It's sort of hard to figure out exactly how tight it will end up if you're not used to it. I'll probably spot heat that area to get some volume back as well as the crease area. Any tips for spot heating? Heat gun vs. hair dryer?

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Originally Posted by bern43

I think that top strap/buckle on the Cochises is what messed me up. It's sort of hard to figure out exactly how tight it will end up if you're not used to it. I'll probably spot heat that area to get some volume back as well as the crease area. Any tips for spot heating? Heat gun vs. hair dryer?

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I don't trust myself with a heat gun--too easy to really fuck it up. The hair dryer is not ideal either.

I've spot reheated my liners holding a rice sack with an oven mitt, or for larger areas heat the oven up to 225, wrap the part of the boot you don't want to heat with damp towels that have been soaked with cold water leaving the area to be rebaked exposed.

IMO unless the shin is not fitting correctly, I would not worry about that bump.

I recently put a pair of PW in my Bushwackers. Did the hot rice method, had to do the whole boots twice and then a third time in the toebox of the right boot because my feet are differently sized since I broke a few toes on the right.

The tightest I did the top buckle was 3 and a half on the scale that's printed on the strap.

Also there is some funkiness with the shell and where the Power Wrap starts to overlap itself just where the toebox starts. It's very easy to get a piece of the liner wedged / folded between the shell parts and this will continue to be a PITA as you put them on and take them off, but it's worth it.

You have to be extra careful to make sure things are in the right order when the liner is all hot and mushy, before you crank down the buckles use the pull tabs and stomp your heel a few times to help remove folds, double check that all parts of the liner are under all parts of the shell before cranking down.

Edit: Mine were tight as hell the first time I molded them and cut off circulation to my feet with thin race socks on and the buckles undone. I decided to mold them again with a thicker snowboard type sock rather than the nylon one they give you and it worked out okay. YMMV. Try a thinner sock before you decide they're too tight and don't mold them again unless you have to. This could mean replacing your sock collection with race socks, but that's good, not bad.

Followed the oven instructions - nice and easy although it was a wide opening AT boot.

My larger left foot came out great but the smaller right is a bit loose in the heel. Thinking of trying a shim or padding over top the ankle for volume and doing a rice bag job on the heel pocket just for that one.

Silicon spray was a nice help (and useful to keep the dukes/barons sliding nicely)

Sent from my MB860 using TGR Forums

After a bunch of research, I came away thinking that the oven method likely gets the best results, but the rice method is easier and less fuck-upable. Given that I was doing my Power Wraps in a Manhattan apartment on a week day mornign with no one around to help, rice molding seemed like the better option.

I watched the video tutorials that Intuition has posted on YouTube, re-read the instructions a few times, and had at it. My only variation to the Intuition recommended approach was that I taped my Instaprint footbeds to my foot before I put on the toe cap and fitting sock. Everything went very smoothly, other than the foot bed shifting slightly on my right foot - it was likely only a fraction of an inch off, but I wound up re-molding to get it perfect.

After finishing, trying on the boots with my regular ski socks to make sure everything felt OK, and letting them cool, I pulled the liners to take a look. The impressions of my foot contours were obvious in the liners and the proces seemed to have worked as advertised. My biggest concern was that heating the liners using the rice-method wouldn't mold as effectively to my feet as the oven method, but I really couldn't see how the result could have been better.

I've only skied them one day (thank you, warm and dry December) and things didn't start out too well. Two runs in I headed to the lodge with my feet absolutely screaming. I undid all the buckles, but didn't take off the boots, and felt better very quickly. Being an idiot, I had cranked the buckles to approximately where I had them pre-Intuitions, adn somehow managed to ignore the fact that they take up a lot more volume than the stock liners (Dalbello Surges with a couple of seasons on them). After giving my feet a few minutes to recover, I let the buckles out a notch or two, and had no issues for the rest of the day. My feet were very comfortable and very warm (it was 30* out so I wouldn't expect them to be cold though).

The boots had a significantly different feeling with the Intuition wraps compared to the stock tongue liners. They definitely stiffened the boots up a bit, and were much less sloppy in terms of transferring movement into ski response.

With one day on them, two thumbs up from me for Intuition Power Wraps.

Mailman I had a similar experience, I have the blue InstaPrint footbeds as well. I used some wide medical tape and strapped it to my foot at the arch and the toes and a few more vertical strips at the heel.

The instructions tell you to buckle your boots as you normally would. If you do that, then you'll get a super tight fit. I think that's why I had to mold mine twice.

After the first mold, I took the footbeds out and it was much more comfortable, but I couldn't see skiing without them.