Looking for BOA Beta

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

To someone else upthread who commented re the first year Boa. They've been used in ski boots and on snowboard boots for while

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I know. But not the new honking big dial on alpine boots. They’re having similar growing pains with the system that is similar to new AT bindings.
I own 4 pairs of cycling shoes, all boa, I own F1LT’s, etc. I’ve used Boa since it was introduced/invented.

What growing pains are they having? I don’t like them so much but they’ve been selling well, don’t seem to break and have a standardized adoption through the industry?

It’s not anything dramatic like the Shift problems, but like Greg’s example of the K2 cable getting tangled. I just won’t buy almost anything in the early, (typically first year of general public), release of a product. How many changes did they make to the Tecton/Vipec? (I lost track.) I wanted to buy it, but since the Hawx was available in a buckle option I’ll wait.


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Originally Posted by plugboots

It’s not anything dramatic like the Shift problems, but like Greg’s example of the K2 cable getting tangled. I just won’t buy almost anything in the early, (typically first year of general public), release of a product. How many changes did they make to the Tecton/Vipec? (I lost track.) I wanted to buy it, but since the Hawx was available in a buckle option I’ll wait.

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To be fair, no one but K2 used a Boa on the liner. Salomon has this weird elastic thing on the liner that goes over the instep, but that's not a function of the Boa.

Interestingly, each manufacturer has their own approach to protecting the Boa knob - Atomic has a beefy ramp in front, K2 has a more minimalist lip all the way around, Salomon is mostly built up under the knob, Fischer has a half moon to the front . . . remains to be seen whose Boas fall off most frequently.

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Originally Posted by plugboots

It’s not anything dramatic like the Shift problems, but like Greg’s example of the K2 cable getting tangled. I just won’t buy almost anything in the early, (typically first year of general public), release of a product. How many changes did they make to the Tecton/Vipec? (I lost track.) I wanted to buy it, but since the Hawx was available in a buckle option I’ll wait.


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Greg was referring to the cable on the liner. If it’s pulled loose it can go through the instep when putting the boots on but you just tighten the liner and it pulls in fine.

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Originally Posted by tompietrowski

Over 20 years in snowboard boots now. Have you had the chance to try our mindbender boa yet lee? I forgot I was meant to find you a pair.

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Nope...they're not easy to find

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Originally Posted by plugboots

I know. But not the new honking big dial on alpine boots. They’re having similar growing pains with the system that is similar to new AT bindings.
I own 4 pairs of cycling shoes, all boa, I own F1LT’s, etc. I’ve used Boa since it was introduced/invented.

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Yah I hear you. I'm curious how that portruding dial will do around sleds, equipment, rocks etc.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

Yah I hear you. I'm curious how that portruding dial will do around sleds, equipment, rocks etc.

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I mean, this is all I’m saying, I would prefer to let somebody else be a beta tester.

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Originally Posted by plugboots

I mean, this is all I’m saying, I would prefer to let somebody else be a beta tester.

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I'm your boo(t tester). I just ordered a pair of Hawx XTDs with boas. I should get them out on the sled at least a couple of times this year.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

Nope...they're not easy to find

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Yeah we were a little surprised even at the demand but I guess it’s a nice problem to have. We are pulling forward some f24 boots so I’ll be in touch if I can get anything.

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Originally Posted by gregL

Interestingly, each manufacturer has their own approach to protecting the Boa knob - Atomic has a beefy ramp in front, K2 has a more minimalist lip all the way around, Salomon is mostly built up under the knob, Fischer has a half moon to the front . . . remains to be seen whose Boas fall off most frequently.

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It may be of interest to some here but the added material we built up around the entire dial serves more than simply to help deflect impacts. It’s actually integral to how we were able to make the boots close more evenly from toe to instep. If any one is interested I’m happy to explain further.

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Originally Posted by tompietrowski

It may be of interest to some here but the added material we built up around the entire dial serves more than simply to help deflect impacts. It’s actually integral to how we were able to make the boots close more evenly from toe to instep. If any one is interested I’m happy to explain further.

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Yes, please. I assume you went through multiple iterations of the shell design?

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Originally Posted by gregL

Yes, please. I assume you went through multiple iterations of the shell design?

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Very much so yes. We began using what we had which was our existing buckle shells. Even just converting these boots to use the boa system we could feel an improvement but it also let us really identify the differences between the boa system and buckles.

The boa system being a single pull cable system works like any cable system where the force generated is greatest at the start of the chain and weakest at the end. This means the force the system puts on the shell is very strong at the instep but it decreases a lot by the toe. A traditional buckle shell is designed to close evenly across the instep and toe buckle which means when you use boa on a buckle shell you get a lot of closure at the instep and not much at the toe. Once we figured out the limitations of the current shell design we made the choice to design all new shells for boa.

The biggest changes were to the way the shell closes. We had to work with the boa system which meant making the areas of least force the easiest to close and the area with the most force harder to close. Our boa shells are designed to close very easily at the toe and less easily at the instep. Combine this with the boa system pulling strongest at the instep and least at the toe and you get the even closure we were able to achieve.

The toe closure is achieved by our all new boa toe seal and overlap design and the instep closing harder is done through wall thickness updates much of which is achieved by the extra material around the dial. So although the shape does aid in deflecting impacts it also helps us create the even closure by strengthening that section of the boot.

That is a very quick explanation of some of what we did on our boa boots but let me know if you would like me to go into more details about any of the design processes.

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Originally Posted by tompietrowski

Very much so yes. We began using what we had which was our existing buckle shells. Even just converting these boots to use the boa system we could feel an improvement but it also let us really identify the differences between the boa system and buckles.

The boa system being a single pull cable system works like any cable system where the force generated is greatest at the start of the chain and weakest at the end. This means the force the system puts on the shell is very strong at the instep but it decreases a lot by the toe. A traditional buckle shell is designed to close evenly across the instep and toe buckle which means when you use boa on a buckle shell you get a lot of closure at the instep and not much at the toe. Once we figured out the limitations of the current shell design we made the choice to design all new shells for boa.

The biggest changes were to the way the shell closes. We had to work with the boa system which meant making the areas of least force the easiest to close and the area with the most force harder to close. Our boa shells are designed to close very easily at the toe and less easily at the instep. Combine this with the boa system pulling strongest at the instep and least at the toe and you get the even closure we were able to achieve.

The toe closure is achieved by our all new boa toe seal and overlap design and the instep closing harder is done through wall thickness updates much of which is achieved by the extra material around the dial. So although the shape does aid in deflecting impacts it also helps us create the even closure by strengthening that section of the boot.

That is a very quick explanation of some of what we did on our boa boots but let me know if you would like me to go into more details about any of the design processes.

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Thanks for the insight, Tom!

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Originally Posted by tompietrowski

Very much so yes. We began using what we had which was our existing buckle shells. Even just converting these boots to use the boa system we could feel an improvement but it also let us really identify the differences between the boa system and buckles.

The boa system being a single pull cable system works like any cable system where the force generated is greatest at the start of the chain and weakest at the end. This means the force the system puts on the shell is very strong at the instep but it decreases a lot by the toe. A traditional buckle shell is designed to close evenly across the instep and toe buckle which means when you use boa on a buckle shell you get a lot of closure at the instep and not much at the toe. Once we figured out the limitations of the current shell design we made the choice to design all new shells for boa.

The biggest changes were to the way the shell closes. We had to work with the boa system which meant making the areas of least force the easiest to close and the area with the most force harder to close. Our boa shells are designed to close very easily at the toe and less easily at the instep. Combine this with the boa system pulling strongest at the instep and least at the toe and you get the even closure we were able to achieve.

The toe closure is achieved by our all new boa toe seal and overlap design and the instep closing harder is done through wall thickness updates much of which is achieved by the extra material around the dial. So although the shape does aid in deflecting impacts it also helps us create the even closure by strengthening that section of the boot.

That is a very quick explanation of some of what we did on our boa boots but let me know if you would like me to go into more details about any of the design processes.

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Wow. That is fascinating tech dorkiness. Thx!

So what you’re saying is we aren’t beta testers? Hahahah. Hilarious, stoked out of my mind for it. It’s a better mousetrap by a long shot!


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Great stuff. Keep giving us more. I heard K2 determined the location of the dial that everyone adopted. Any insight into that?

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

Great stuff. Keep giving us more. I heard K2 determined the location of the dial that everyone adopted. Any insight into that?

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Um, no. There is no truth to that. Each brand worked with BOA in their own way and BOA has rather strict rules on how to use their products. Atomic started working with BOA back in 2018 on this project and NOTHING of what we did was a result of what K2 did.

This whole pissing contest of "who did BOA best" is utter nonsense. No brand claims to have done "buckles" better than another brand. Why this is happening with BOA simply comes down to the fact that the parts are the same for every brand and certain brands are desperately trying to stand out from each other. It's pretty clear that certain brands are leaning a little too heavily into the marketing department on this one...

No matter how a certain brand developed their tip sealing or BOA protector, it will ALWAYS come down to which last shape best matches your foot shape. BOA creates a better wrapping shell, but it's not a silver bullet that solves every fit problem or somehow turns the wrong fit into the right fit.

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Originally Posted by tompietrowski

Very much so yes. We began using what we had which was our existing buckle shells. Even just converting these boots to use the boa system we could feel an improvement but it also let us really identify the differences between the boa system and buckles.

The boa system being a single pull cable system works like any cable system where the force generated is greatest at the start of the chain and weakest at the end. This means the force the system puts on the shell is very strong at the instep but it decreases a lot by the toe. A traditional buckle shell is designed to close evenly across the instep and toe buckle which means when you use boa on a buckle shell you get a lot of closure at the instep and not much at the toe. Once we figured out the limitations of the current shell design we made the choice to design all new shells for boa.

The biggest changes were to the way the shell closes. We had to work with the boa system which meant making the areas of least force the easiest to close and the area with the most force harder to close. Our boa shells are designed to close very easily at the toe and less easily at the instep. Combine this with the boa system pulling strongest at the instep and least at the toe and you get the even closure we were able to achieve.

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Huh, so that means that the cable experiences a good amount of friction at each cable bend point.

Does the Boa brand limit what you can do at these points? Did you (or Matt) ever mess around with friction-reducing elements, like using little roller sheaves etc, to control the cable tension distribution?

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Originally Posted by onenerdykid

This whole pissing contest of "who did BOA best" is utter nonsense.

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My boa could beat up your boa.

Is there a three piece boot with BOA on the market?


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Originally Posted by adrenalated

My boa could beat up your boa.

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Your Boa would choke on my Boa.

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Originally Posted by Norseman

Huh, so that means that the cable experiences a good amount of friction at each cable bend point.

Does the Boa brand limit what you can do at these points? Did you (or Matt) ever mess around with friction-reducing elements, like using little roller sheaves etc, to control the cable tension distribution?

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I just experienced this with my new lake MX 242 mountain bike shoes. My old Scotts had plastic underneath the boa straps so the cable slid easily and with the new Lakes it’s leather and so no matter what I do, I have to tighten the top BOA during the ride. I’ll bet anything the next version or an update will have some sort of slippery material underneath that boa .

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Originally Posted by gregL

Your Boa would choke on my Boa.

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My dad’s boa is bigger than your dad’s boa.

Wait…

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

Great stuff. Keep giving us more. I heard K2 determined the location of the dial that everyone adopted. Any insight into that?

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No as ONK said the restrictions for placements for the components are pretty strict but that is where it stops. How you build the rest of the boot around the system is totally up to the brand. Just like buckle boots are obviously not all built the same, even though buckles are basically all the same, not all boa boots are built the same. Each brand determined how best to implement it into their boots and what changes needed to be made to get the most from the system. Fit is a factor for sure but so is how the boots themselves are engineered and built around this new system.