Antiwork

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So should those people who "cant" work hard be as successful as someone with that gift of working hard? Should the dumb be as successful as the smart? The talentless as successful as the talented? I dont think our society should be a winner take all culture (and maybe we have trended too far this direction), but i also really dont like the everybody gets a trophy trope.

Maybe I'm missing the point the of the "Antiwork" movement. What is the mission statement of the movement, and why did they choose "antiwork" as their tagline?

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Have you spent any time on the Antiwork subReddit? 90% of the stories on there are about companies acting illegally or at the very least unethically towards their employees.

Not paying what they offered.

Not following employment contracts.

Illegally not paying for hours worked.

Laying off employees and then promising the rest who pick up the slack raises and promotions that never come.

Workers that get told they have to take pay cuts while profits and corporate bonuses are at all time highs.

Not treating employees like humans that need work breaks, have sick kids to take care of, have lives outside the job.


A very small portion of those posts fall into the “whiny entitled” box. I’ve never seen people asking to be paid $80k for delivering pizzas. But If we agree that sticking groceries, making pizzas, waiting tables, and serving McDonalds are things we want in this society, why shouldn’t we consider it fair to pay these people at least what it takes to scrape by? And treat them like humans, in what is the biggest economy every created, in what’s purportedly the “greatest country” on Earth?

It’s about standing up for themselves and trying to fight back against corporate culture that tries to turn everyone into bootlicking slaves. Fighting Bill Lumberg bosses who demean employees to feel better about their own terrible lives. Supporting the working class to fight for reasonable working conditions. If you’re not for these things, do you root for the Empire in Star Wars or what?

And to add to Falcon:

It's not a specific movement with a mission statement, defined goals, and processes. Social movements take years and years to develop into such things.

It's a fucking subreddit that blew up because it resonated with huge numbers of people. Now folks want to evaluate it based on whether it has leaders, written policy briefs and KPIs. I

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So should those people who "cant" work hard be as successful as someone with that gift of working hard? Should the dumb be as successful as the smart? The talentless as successful as the talented? I dont think our society should be a winner take all culture (and maybe we have trended too far this direction), but i also really dont like the everybody gets a trophy trope.

Maybe I'm missing the point the of the "Antiwork" movement. What is the mission statement of the movement, and why did they choose "antiwork" as their tagline?

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This isn’t about everyone being equally successful. It’s about an entire segment of our society being exploited.

I presume that all human traits (intelligence, luck, physical ability, etc) exist on some sort of normal distribution. Therefore there are millions of people who just need help to survive and live something resembling a decent life.

I swear, almost every problem in our country can be traced back to income inequality and people still almost refuse to acknowledge that it exists.

No problem rewarding the hard workers here, but how many lifetimes of wealth do they need before we say enough is enough?


(and the we can get into extrapolating this to the rest of the planet.) for

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Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

And then seeing said institutional investors deemed "too big to fail."
See: Elizabeth Warren & Blackrock.

But people like her are REALLY for the little guys, huh?

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Warren is a million times better for the little guy than any Republican politician in the USA.. But admittedly that is a very low bar.

What’s weird is IRL no one can physically pull themselves up by their little bootstraps and the expression was meant to be taken as sarcasm and doing something impossible

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Originally Posted by Summer

But in all cases the trick is relatively straightforward: leave the US.

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Easier said than done without a link to the destination country.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

So should those people who "cant" work hard be as successful as someone with that gift of working hard? Should the dumb be as successful as the smart? The talentless as successful as the talented? I dont think our society should be a winner take all culture (and maybe we have trended too far this direction), but i also really dont like the everybody gets a trophy trope.

Maybe I'm missing the point the of the "Antiwork" movement. What is the mission statement of the movement, and why did they choose "antiwork" as their tagline?

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Jesus Christ you boot licking moron, grinding is a lifestyle affectation not an inherent means to succes. Celebrating it is just a virtue signal that you are an asshole

the lesson from “dentists only make money when they are pulling teeth” isn’t pull more teeth, dentist

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

No denying i had intrinsic advantages doled out by the universe through no fault of my own. All 4 of the ones you listed. 100%.

Where we may disagree is the level to which my apparent "success" has been due to natural talent + work ethic vs due to being a white middle class male in america, and then why that matters in what should be a competitive meritocratic environment like the workforce? But, we are getting off topic.

The biggest thing that bothers me about the "antiwork" movement is the passive aggressive approach to dealing with the problem, and the sense of being entitled to a middle class living (instead of working your ass off to earn it).

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Statistically, your success has very little to do with you being smarter, harder working, more talented or any thing "better" than anyone else. Good job being born a white male to a middle-class family in America! WAY TO GO! YAY!

Seriously. What's the difference between a kid from a poor family getting a job at McDonald's after high school because he doesn't know any better thats what everyone else does and working his 40 hours a week plus some if he needs more money for something... oh and pretty soon if he knocks up his girlfriend she won't be able to get an abortion so when he realizes he could go to school or something he won't be able to because he will have mouths other than his own to feed...


Or you. You get out of high school and go to college Iike you always knew you would. You're not worried about where you will live or what you will eat.

You are a good solider, though. You study hard. GOOD JOB BEING SUCH A HARD WORKER! You even study instead of going skiing sometimes.

Maybe you even work part time alongside the dude above, but if you get sick, injured, work conflicts with school, or the boss is a big dick you can just quit because that just means your kinda broke, not homeless because you can't pay rent.

GOODJOB working so hard when you graduate college! Way above fast-food guy.

The problem is that the baseline is too low. Everyone who can show up and do mediocre work at whatever job they can get should be able to afford a mediocre place to live, food, healthcare and be able to save a little money.

Have you ever seen Mexican immigrants work? Those mfos work fucking hard. Way the fuck harder than you.

Did you know CNAs, you know the people caring for your parents in nursing homes dont make much over minimum wage? That's fucking hard. They are wiping asses. What kind of life do you think the person wiping your moms ass deserves?

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

We’ve argued about this before.

I think there are winners and losers, for sure. The market has decided that some attributes are more rare and harder to replace, and compensation flows accordingly, but I think we grossly undervalue other skills and abilities and somebody who can show up and put up with your shit and sling you pizzas for 40 hours a week deserves a roof over their head and a car that isn’t on the verge of breaking down and food in their bellies and a little bit of savings.

And the guy who boasts about busting their ass might as well be boasting about being in Mensa or being born into money. All are gifts. Being a dick about any of them is just being a dick.

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Anyone slinging pizzas for 40 hours deserves a very large Star wars themed bong the very least.

And I'm lazy and entitled...soo...where can I sign up? I mean I have to work, but I could sure do without.

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Originally Posted by mb6f50

Statistically, your success has very little to do with you being smarter, harder working, more talented or any thing "better" than anyone else. Good job being born a white male to a middle-class family in America! WAY TO GO! YAY!

Seriously. What's the difference between a kid from a poor family getting a job at McDonald's after high school because he doesn't know any better thats what everyone else does and working his 40 hours a week plus some if he needs more money for something... oh and pretty soon if he knocks up his girlfriend she won't be able to get an abortion so when he realizes he could go to school or something he won't be able to because he will have mouths other than his own to feed...


Or you. You get out of high school and go to college Iike you always knew you would. You're not worried about where you will live or what you will eat.

You are a good solider, though. You study hard. GOOD JOB BEING SUCH A HARD WORKER! You even study instead of going skiing sometimes.

Maybe you even work part time alongside the dude above, but if you get sick, injured, work conflicts with school, or the boss is a big dick you can just quit because that just means your kinda broke, not homeless because you can't pay rent.

GOODJOB working so hard when you graduate college! Way above fast-food guy.

The problem is that the baseline is too low. Everyone who can show up and do mediocre work at whatever job they can get should be able to afford a mediocre place to live, food, healthcare and be able to save a little money.

Have you ever seen Mexican immigrants work? Those mfos work fucking hard. Way the fuck harder than you.

Did you know CNAs, you know the people caring for your parents in nursing homes dont make much over minimum wage? That's fucking hard. They are wiping asses. What kind of life do you think the person wiping your moms ass deserves?

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your sweeping generalizations are mostly wrong in regards to myself, but thats cool. I don't blame you for taking your angst out on an internet stranger. You do what you need to in order to get through the day.


Please expand upon what you mean by "Everyone who can show up and do mediocre work at whatever job they can get should be able to afford a mediocre place to live, food, healthcare and be able to save a little money." Id like to hear specifics of what you think qualifies as mediocre, and if you think anything beyond food, shelter, healthcare, and a little savings are "deserved"? Mostly, because i generally agree. But, from what i see, most of society thinks they deserve faaaaaar more than those things.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

And the guy who boasts about busting their ass might as well be boasting about being in Mensa or being born into money. All are gifts.

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So what is boast-worthy? Is anything? is anything worth being proud of, or is every success just a gift that must have come easy to you?

I completely agree that any full time job should allow a worker a “living wage”.

That being said even though a full 1/2 of people are below average most folks assume they are above.

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Originally Posted by Peruvian

That being said even though a full 1/2 of people are below average most folks assume they are above.

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Bingo.

Attachment 420301

I have a few thoughts on this:
1. If you call out antiwork but don't call out Amazon and others actively suppressing things like unions - you're a hypocrite bootlicker. In a healthy economics system, there should be healthy tension between labor and capital owners to ensure efficient and equitable distribution of value. Our current state is way too tilted to capital at the moment, which is where a lot of frustration comes from.
2. Corporations are corporations, not people. They don't need defending. They're an unfeeling, unthinking entity. If they don't have systems implemented to detect and correct people not doing their work, that's on them, not the worker. Shitty management is everywhere, and people exploiting that as opposed to shitty managers exploiting employee goodwill is 100% fair play. Don't like it? Suck it up, buttercup, this is competitive capitalism.
3. We all need to push for better regulatory enforcement. As many have said, most things are legitimate wage theft, rewriting of time cards and other explicitly disallowed actions that companies get away with because regulatory agencies and methods have been so gutted by regulatory capture and lobbying.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

But, from what i see, most of society thinks they deserve faaaaaar more than those things.

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Most of society just wants a basic fucking life - it doesn't need to be extravagant but it also doesn't need to be work / eat / sleep and that's it, either. The bar has been lowered so far over the past few decades. There is so much wealth in this country and you have people fighting for scraps - it's pathetic. Cost of living vs. wages and the growth chart tells pretty much the entire story.

People also have trouble acknowledging the impact of circumstances because it bruises their little bootstrap egos. I've been extremely successful and I'll be the first to admit that it was far easier to get there in part due to my white middle class upbringing and then some luck along the way. Sure, I made good decisions along the way as well and worked hard but I'm not such a narcissistic prick that I can't acknowledge those advantages and good fortune. I don't look down on someone flipping burgers, they have the same right to a good life as well, one where they aren't afraid to go to the doctor because even with health insurance they can't afford the premiums. America has devolved into a fucking scam.

How many people in this thread are pretending to WFH, spending a soft “40” on zoom calls and slack chats?


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America is one big MLM company. But what do I know, I'm wearing flip flops at an office today. Soft 40 sounds more like a hard 15.

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Originally Posted by nickwm21

How many people in this thread are pretending to WFH, spending a soft “40” on zoom calls and slack chats?


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I once watched a 12 hour bridge deck pour that kicked off at midnight and thought to myself “wow, I’m glad I worked hard so I don’t have to do that”.

(That’s sarcasm in case you didn’t catch it)

This is kinda gets to the heart of the problem:

”Abstract

This paper quantifies employer market power in US manufacturing and how it has changed over time. Using administrative data, we estimate plant-level markdowns—the ratio between a plant's marginal revenue product of labor and its wage. We find most manufacturing plants operate in a monopsonistic environment, with an average markdown of 1.53, implying a worker earning only 65 cents on the marginal dollar generated. To investigate long-term trends for the entire sector, we propose a novel, theoretically grounded measure for the aggregate markdown. We find that it decreased between the late 1970s and the early 2000s, but has been sharply increasing since.”

https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/aer.20200025

This is looking specifically at manufacturing, but it’s certainly not limited to it.

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Originally Posted by nickwm21

How many people in this thread are pretending to WFH, spending a soft “40” on zoom calls and slack chats?


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What do you think Executives do? Also, tying direct work hours is a bit of a misnomer in a lot of thought-driven industries. One productive hour could eclipse thousands of non-productive ones from an outcome perspective. To paraphrase - there is not necessarily a linear relationship between hours worked and value created in many roles.

Here is an easy one:


What quality of life should a worker at a meat packing plant have after being deemed “essential” and required to work in close conditions with little mitigations for CoVID?

Should they be able to afford a car, a home, a new fridge, retirement savings?

They are “essential” after all.

Antiwork makes me shrug. Yes, there are asshole employers out there abusing minimum wage employees. They shouldn't do that and those folks should be called to the carpet. The employees should also be looking upwards to better opportunities as well. Minimum wage jobs were never intended to be careers, they are skill and resume builders that teach folks how to be an employee. Interns and apprentices. If you're in your mid 30's and only working for minimum wage, that's on you 100%. There is nothing that life could have dealt you that I haven't seen someone from the laborers union rise up and overcome something far, far worse. Born in a poor community? That sucks. Meet Jose, his home was burnt to the ground and he walked from El Salvador to the U.S. as a child with the clothes on his back and no education. Upon arriving in the US, he got C's and D's though middle and high school, becoming the most educated member of his family. He can work because of Obama's DREAM policy, but lives in constant fear that his status will be pulled as the government still hasn't figured out a path to citizenship and he will be deported to a nation where he hasn't set foot in since he was 12 years old. He makes $160k/year because he shows up and works as a union carpenter, is one of the best, and does the OT. The fuck is your excuse again?

With a high school education, a bit of personal drive, and the ability to show up for work 5 days a week for 8 hours, you can make 100k/year in California working in the trades once you reach Journeyman at age 22. With vacation, pension, and all the rest.

But swinging a hammer or running an excavator is dirty hard work. It's called work because it's not vacation.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Here is an easy one:


What quality of life should a worker at a meat packing plant have after being deemed “essential” and required to work in close conditions with little mitigations for CoVID?

Should they be able to afford a car, a home, a new fridge, retirement savings?

They are “essential” after all.

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Essential, or valuable? There are a shitton of tiny rubber o-rings in my life that are essential. But, i dont think they should cost more than $0.05 because they are a dime-a-dozen (don't do that math...).

To answer your question, I think a low tier worker at a meatpacking plant should be able to afford a beater car, an older fridge, a small home in an "affordable area" and should receive a pension and SS along with universal healthcare.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

I once watched a 12 hour bridge deck pour that kicked off at midnight and thought to myself “wow, I’m glad I worked hard so I don’t have to do that”.

(That’s sarcasm in case you didn’t catch it)

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The folks on the pour crew made more money that night than 97% of the folks that post on antiwork do in a week. Without a college education or english being their first language.

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Originally Posted by californiagrown

Essential, or valuable? There are a shitton of tiny rubber o-rings in my life that are essential. But, i dont think they should cost more than $0.05 because they are a dime-a-dozen (don't do that math...).

To answer your question, I think a low tier worker at a meatpacking plant should be able to afford a beater car, an older fridge, a small home in an "affordable area" and should receive a pension and SS along with universal healthcare.

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The government deemed them essential during lockdowns. Not valuable, essential to the continued functioning of our economy and society.