WHERE IS BUSH?!

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Originally Posted by Endlessseason

I saw buses going through neighborhoods offering to take people to safety.
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The very few people who truly had zero opportunity to leave
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I don't buy the complaining and fingerpointing about funds being pulled when study after study made it clear that there could not be a "safe shelter" in New Orleans in the direct path of a cat 5.

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You got a cite for that? I don't watch TV these days, but everything I've read claims that there were many people who simply could not leave. When your annual income is $11,000 and you have no credit or car then getting the hell out of dodge is rather hard.
After all, didn't all the newsmedia make a big story out of that family who's only way out of the city was to charter a limo for $3,700? If those folks with all that available cash had a hard time leaving, then where does that leave everyone else?
In other words, I call bullshit.

As for "complaining and fingerpointing", sorry about that. I just have this crazy notion that perhaps it is in the interests of the state and federal gov to keep the dikes and levies well maintained around a city that is below sea level and in a hurricane prone location. But hey, that's me and I'm fucking nuts.

So you gonna reply? .... oh wait, that's right, you took your toys and went home.

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Originally Posted by Endlessseason

Don't go blaming politicians for their inability to get them out of the hell hole they shouldn't have been in in the first place.

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What source do you have that there was a massive coordinated evacuation of New Orleans before the hurriciane? Because I haven't heard anything about it. The governor stated that she was angry that the major airlines cancelled flights after Saturday night, when they could have flown more people out on Sunday. Although most of the people stuck in NO are the poor and the frail, there's a fair number of tourists stuck there too.

Let's do this--let's take all out all your money, credit cards and cell phone, tie you to a wheelchair, and plop you in the middle of...oh, let's say Key West. Let's see if you can make it out on your own and into a safe place on the Florida mainland in less than 48 hours. And if you fail, is that because you lack personal responsibility?

Besides, in the "Hurricane Pam" practice scenario that the emergency agencies did last year--for those who don't know, it was a tabletop scenario where a Cat 5 hurricane directly hit NO--they ASSUMED that 10 to 20% of the city's population could not make it out. Now if they actually PLANNED for people to be left in NO in their practice scenario, WHY THE HELL don't they have a plan for getting the people out now during the real thing?

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Originally Posted by SLCFreshies

Now if they actually PLANNED for people to be left in NO in their practice scenario, WHY THE HELL don't they have a plan for getting the people out now during the real thing?

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I listened to this on NPR today. According to the gentleman interviewed, the Pam plan itself was only in the planning stages. They never really got started on it before Katrina came.

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Originally Posted by Schmear

I listened to this on NPR today. According to the gentleman interviewed, the Pam plan itself was only in the planning stages. They never really got started on it before Katrina came.

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Yeah, and you know why it didn't get beyond the planning stage?

From this article in today's New York Times:

Some lapses may have occurred because of budget cuts. For example, Mr. Tolbert, the former FEMA official, said that "funding dried up" for follow-up to the 2004 Hurricane Pam exercise, cutting off work on plans to shelter thousands of survivors.

Brian Wolshon, an engineering professor at Louisiana State University who served as a consultant on the state's evacuation plan, said little attention was paid to moving out New Orleans's "low-mobility" population - the elderly, the infirm and the poor without cars or other means of fleeing the city, about 100,000 people.

At disaster planning meetings, he said, "the answer was often silence."

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Originally Posted by SLCFreshies

What source do you have that there was a massive coordinated evacuation of New Orleans before the hurriciane? Because I haven't heard anything about it. The governor stated that she was angry that the major airlines cancelled flights after Saturday night, when they could have flown more people out on Sunday. Although most of the people stuck in NO are the poor and the frail, there's a fair number of tourists stuck there too.

Let's do this--let's take all out all your money, credit cards and cell phone, tie you to a wheelchair, and plop you in the middle of...oh, let's say Key West. Let's see if you can make it out on your own and into a safe place on the Florida mainland in less than 48 hours. And if you fail, is that because you lack personal responsibility?

Besides, in the "Hurricane Pam" practice scenario that the emergency agencies did last year--for those who don't know, it was a tabletop scenario where a Cat 5 hurricane directly hit NO--they ASSUMED that 10 to 20% of the city's population could not make it out. Now if they actually PLANNED for people to be left in NO in their practice scenario, WHY THE HELL don't they have a plan for getting the people out now during the real thing?

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So simple.... http://www.tetongravity.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif

if bush is smart he won't get his ass out of that chopper today - if he does he should be beat fuckin senseless. it's embarrassing being an american right now when you see how our government acts. media people able to get there but no red cross, nation guard, food/water??!!!!! :cussing: :mad:

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Originally Posted by SLCFreshies

What source do you have that there was a massive coordinated evacuation of New Orleans before the hurriciane? Because I haven't heard anything about it. The governor stated that she was angry that the major airlines cancelled flights after Saturday night, when they could have flown more people out on Sunday. Although most of the people stuck in NO are the poor and the frail, there's a fair number of tourists stuck there too.

Let's do this--let's take all out all your money, credit cards and cell phone, tie you to a wheelchair, and plop you in the middle of...oh, let's say Key West. Let's see if you can make it out on your own and into a safe place on the Florida mainland in less than 48 hours. And if you fail, is that because you lack personal responsibility?

Besides, in the "Hurricane Pam" practice scenario that the emergency agencies did last year--for those who don't know, it was a tabletop scenario where a Cat 5 hurricane directly hit NO--they ASSUMED that 10 to 20% of the city's population could not make it out. Now if they actually PLANNED for people to be left in NO in their practice scenario, WHY THE HELL don't they have a plan for getting the people out now during the real thing?

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Bingo! The LA governor is a fuck-up of epic proportions. She is an idiot, and should be shot. Bush has not performed well, but the LA governor clearly had NO plan. The governor blaming the airlines is a bad joke. The city and state have many yellow school buses that could have been used to get people out.

And why the hell did the NO mayor wait until Sunday to order evac? He saw the storm coming.

This is JUST the sort of situation we keep a heathly NATIONAL GUARD for. Louisiana's guard is in Iraq, shanghai'ed for W's folly. The long-term effect will reverberate as well, because people who might otherwise volunteer for the 'Guard in the future will not now for fear they will be activated and shipped off to foreign wars, separated from their familes fo 12-18+months :(
Thanks George :fuckyou:

sitting here "working", listening to NPR and Bush mumbling something about rescue efforts.....i can't believe i'm actually thinking that it probably wouldn't upset me too much if Bush's helicopter crashes in N.O. today.

Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.MichaelMoore.com

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st.

This really hits home for me, since I was just in NO & Baton Rouge in July for a wedding and was stuck there for a few extra days due to hurricane Dennis, which caused almost no damage. The NO airport closed ridiculously early and all flights were cancelled, but I was able to check back into the W hotel, drink good wine and wander the mostly deserted French Quarter taking pictures.

You're right (whoever posted earlier in the thread) that the rich & middle class be they black/white/asian were able to get out of the city. I was struck by the poverty down there during my visit. There is a very large number of poor people of all races, much more than the inner city here. I feel for them. We're all still human, though during extreme stress, it's hard to know how we will stand up.

Although the length of the disaster and circumstances are different, I saw the same panic on the faces of people here in 2001. I feel their pain in not being able to contact members of their family and know how worried their extended families must be, wondering if a relative down there is alive or dead. It took me all day to get home (3.5 miles) and the only communication was email. Lines for a payphone were an hour or more.

The lines are already being drawn for how we should regard those in need - the depictions of the people down there are horrible. As if they deserve the hell they are suffering. Plus, you know that some people "find" and some people "loot".

God, quit it with the racial shit before I start talking about airliners and nyc again.

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Originally Posted by likwid

God, quit it with the racial shit before I start talking about airliners and nyc again.

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? Not crazy enough to think I'm God? but...

Are you talking to me? </ De Niro>

Half the politicians are turning this into a con/lib shitfight.

Half the ACLU and all their proponents are throwing around the racial card.

People are still dying, don't we have better things to do than throw fuel on the fire?

Oh yeah, of course not.

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Originally Posted by BobMc

Where were these people supposed to go? These people on the news aren't able to check into the local Ritz and stay for a few weeks.

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Damn good point. If you had the choice of staying in your home, however rickety, or maybe taking a bus to Baton Rouge where you might be dumped out on the street with no place to go, what would you choose? Neither option seems too good.

Endless,

You seem to be a very well-off man that may not be in touch with the realities of certain segments of the American population. If there was ever a time to put your beliefs in the back of your mind and put yourself in someone else's shoes and try to imagine what it would be like... This is it.

What if you were elderly man laid up in a nursing home? How would you take personal responsibility?

What if you were the owner of a gun store? What is your personal responsibility? To evacuate as ordered or defend the castle from potential looters?

What if you were a patient in the ICU of a hospital? How would you take personal responsibility?

What if you were a homeless person like the ones you see napping on the grass in downtown SLC?

On top of that:

What if you were a police officer, EMT, doctor, nurse, etc.? Then what does your personal responsibility become? To save yourself or to hunker down and continue doing your jobs?

Add up all the people in these various situations and you're going to have quite a large number of people "riding it out."

And Trayc, I saw the top picture on CNN with a different caption.

"should have, would have, could have..."

Right now there are people in danger of losing their lives. We need to act now. We can reprimand the stupid, and apologize to the oppressed later!

The question is, who can be bitch-slapped to get this thing moving along better?

I have a little more hope today as I've heard reports that the 'real' military is arriving. Also, I think the escalating severity of the problem is garnering some actual response in terms of aid that's going to come in. Thank God.

Sprite

Now I'm being called out as a tree-hugger by the JONGS.... :rolleyes:

Whether people decided to leave or not is irrelevant. My country has left them behind to die. And these are the same families of the military in Iraq....left to die on the roofs of their houses. Thanks Bush.

Think about the tax cuts he gave to the energy companies while people pay $6 dollars a gallon down there....

The government is turning away the private sector from helping, which in turn, more people are needlessly dying. :cussing:

What a debacle. :mad:

Someone asked how we can throw blame on the current administration?

Let's see:

- USACE budget cuts leading to the lack of money to work on the levees prior to the storm are a DIRECT result of the Iraq war. USACE is Department of Defense money. Do you think more money gets spent on dams or bombs right now?

- Bush's restructuring of federal agencies placing FEMA in the Dept. of Homeland Security, the geniuses who brought us the color-coded terror alert system, led to massive cuts in budget due to spending money on anti-terrorism measures rather than emergency response.

- Deploying the national guard to fight an illegal war in Iraq led to resources being unable to reach NOLA for days after disaster struck.

Those are three reasons, not opinions or theories, why this clusterfuck can be at least partially blamed on el presidente.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

Whether people decided to leave or not is irrelevant. My country has left them behind to die.

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Exactly. Even if people made a grave mistake in not leaving (not my perspective), they should not be made to pay the ultimate price. If you break your leg skiing, should you be denied medical care? After all, you could have not gone skiing, the back of your lift ticket clearly indicates the risks assumed. This is a crisis, we need to dedicate whatever resources neccassary to save as many as possible. To argue that either a. those in need deserve what is happening or b. our government in doing all they should and can is outside my scope of understanding.

The hurricane was a "Wrath of God" type catastrophe. Nobody thats not there is going to be able to fathom the carnage. Sorry, your not an expert by watching CNN. It is what it is and Monday morning quarterbacking of what should have been done to prevent it is pointless But, the aftermath was....

1) A complete failure and a lack of leadership by the local officials...the Mayor, Chief of Police, and Governor need repeated kicks to the balls and should be banned from public office for life. This state is known for shitty politicians and this proves it...

2) When the locals failed, the feds need to step up. Their initial response by all accounts, SUCKED! Looks like their throwing everything at it right now but WTF, we sent our Navy to help those US hating Tsumani bastards and our own citizens can't get food/water 4 days later?

3)Looters of non-life sustaining items need to be shot on site. If this was CHicago, I can guarantee their would be a lot of dead looters right now...

4) New Orleans needs to be rebuilt. If you ever been there, this place was one of the most unique, special spots in the US or maybe the world. I say screw the law of physics, the power of nature, and the arrogance of man, I want to party in the quarter again!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

What's really fucking sad is if this was a presidential election year, and Bush was up for re-election......would this have been handled differently?? :cussing:

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Would you have still voted for him???

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Originally Posted by robokill1981

Would you have still voted for him???

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Not after this.

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Originally Posted by snowsprite

I have a little more hope today as I've heard reports that the 'real' military is arriving. Also, I think the escalating severity of the problem is garnering some actual response in terms of aid that's going to come in. Thank God.

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I sure hope you're right. Bush was quoted today as saying that there were "millions of tons of food and millions of tons of water" on the way to the Gulf Coast. I personally don't think he has a fucking clue as to how much a million tons is, but hopefully they're sending a lot.

After seeing the chaos and the severity surrounding the urgency of the situation in NO, I can honestly say that I've never been as ashamed to be an American as I am right now. I am amazed, enraged, and deeply saddened by the way this entire situation has transpired and our incapacity to help our own people. :mad:

My thoughts and prayers go out to those in need and I hope relief comes very soon. :frown: