Wolves are rad.

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Originally Posted by wendigo

The most rad thing about wolves is the strangely intense emotions they elicit from people. It typically is presented as either "kill them all" or "hug them all", rational thought on this topic is most rare indeed.

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QFT. After watching this debate play out for the last 30 years, I'm pretty sick of it. I will say that IMO the more rational thought comes from the hunter/conservation crowd rather than the PETA crowd. Almost all the hunters I'm friends with are not opposed to maintaining a wolf population, although I don't know a single one who even wants to shoot a wolf. Sometimes I wonder why, since Fish and Game is actively asking hunters to participate in managing the numbers. The only answer I can come up with is that a lot of people can't separate in their minds the difference between wild dogs and domesticated dogs. Shooting a wolf would be like shooting their beloved canine companion. I think that connection is where all the emotion comes from.

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Originally Posted by yeahman

QFT. After watching this debate play out for the last 30 years, I'm pretty sick of it. I will say that IMO the more rational thought comes from the hunter/conservation crowd rather than the PETA crowd. Almost all the hunters I'm friends with are not opposed to maintaining a wolf population, although I don't know a single one who even wants to shoot a wolf. Sometimes I wonder why, since Fish and Game is actively asking hunters to participate in managing the numbers. The only answer I can come up with is that a lot of people can't separate in their minds the difference between wild dogs and domesticated dogs. Shooting a wolf would be like shooting their beloved canine companion. I think that connection is where all the emotion comes from.

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They're incredibly difficult to hunt (legally--sans bait or helicopter). You can get 1000 "fat fucks" to go hunt them as someone said, and you'd come back with zero dead wolves.

This thread is chalk full of people who have no idea what they're talking about. Introduce disease? Seriously?

It's funny that people choose when to adhere to science (Covid/masks) and shun those who don't, but then argue against it if involves killing (gasp) animals and spout off wild shit that would make the Q crowd blush.

The thing about science is that it's science. It's not a negotiation or partial to what your spirit animal is or whether or not you somehow relate, just like Covid doesn't care about your constitutional rights. The biologists I have met who sturdy wolves and predation don't give a shit about hunting them. They're tasked with managing an ecosystem in which wolves are merely a component. I've never heard of a biologist or conservationist argue to eradicate anything, but they do try to maintain balance. And sometimes that involves reducing a population of wolves, carp, deer, wasps, mountain goats, black or grizzly bear, feral cats, wild pigs, rats or even elephants.

And while I am hunter, I don't hunt wolves and really enjoy seeing them on very rare occasion. But I also trust the biologists who certainly know more about it than I do.

Dude, great post. My personal opinion is the human race has too much hypocrisy and lack of self awareness to really get anything done or worst case scenario, survive.

Wolves...love ‘em. Cool as hell to see and hear. I hunt. I’ve been around them a bit. My family makes it’s living off cattle ranching. I participate with and donate to many land and wildlife conservation organizations. Anymore, it’s an exercise just to listen to all the opinions but I will always pour a glass and listen. There’s no winning a wolf debate in the west, or east vs west, or city vs country...

Especially with people who talk about it but don’t get their hands dirty learning about it or trying to change it.

Roll call: who posting in this thread has written a legislator or placed comment with their state wildlife management agency with ideas on wolf and predator management?

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Originally Posted by BmillsSkier

Fair points. I may have overreacted a bit, but I loathe the all too common stereotype I see of wolf hunters - fat, using dogs, bait, traps, etc. and not one bit concerned about preservation. They just like the manly post they make with the kill online.

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Maybe someone from Atlanta knows more about wolf hunting than I do but my understanding is hunting wolves with dogs is not a good method.

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...n-county-area/

Also where does someone from Atlanta go to see the all too common stereotypical wolf hunter?

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Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater

They're incredibly difficult to hunt (legally--sans bait or helicopter). You can get 1000 "fat fucks" to go hunt them as someone said, and you'd come back with zero dead wolves.

This thread is chalk full of people who have no idea what they're talking about. Introduce disease? Seriously?

It's funny that people choose when to adhere to science (Covid/masks) and shun those who don't, but then argue against it if involves killing (gasp) animals and spout off wild shit that would make the Q crowd blush.

The thing about science is that it's science. It's not a negotiation or partial to what your spirit animal is or whether or not you somehow relate, just like Covid doesn't care about your constitutional rights. The biologists I have met who sturdy wolves and predation don't give a shit about hunting them. They're tasked with managing an ecosystem in which wolves are merely a component. I've never heard of a biologist or conservationist argue to eradicate anything, but they do try to maintain balance. And sometimes that involves reducing a population of wolves, carp, deer, wasps, mountain goats, black or grizzly bear, feral cats, wild pigs, rats or even elephants.

And while I am hunter, I don't hunt wolves and really enjoy seeing them on very rare occasion. But I also trust the biologists who certainly know more about it than I do.

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I’m just anti dumb shit thinking that puts hunting wolves at one end of the spectrum and depopulation of the West and billions of dollars in habitat restoration at the other end in a black and white paradigm. My point was to illustrate that there are an almost infinite number of management options between the two extremes gretch threw out. Some good, some bad, some expensive, some not.

If you think I am anti wolf management you aren’t paying attention and maybe are instead putting me in the PETA category because I’m not jumping on the “hunt them” option as the best solution to manage them. Hunting should be part of a holistic management policy based on the best science we have.

I’m a hunter and fisherman and have put my fair share of dollars towards conservation outside of just buying a tag FWIW.

I’ll just add that letting these sorts of hyperbolic statements about wildlife and wolf management go unchallenged does no one who is interested in rational management policy any favors. It just gets the liv2skis of the world more entrenched in their thinking.

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Originally Posted by thebirdhunter

Maybe someone from Atlanta knows more about wolf hunting than I do but my understanding is hunting wolves with dogs is not a good method.

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...n-county-area/

Also where does someone from Atlanta go to see the all too common stereotypical wolf hunter?

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In Idaho dog hunters hunt lions and bears not wolves because hunting wolves w dogs is illegal in Idaho although some dogs are killed by wolves in encounters that are inevitable.

I met a dog hunter a few months ago and had several long talks with him regarding his dogs(Blue Ticks), and hunting lions and bears and came to the conclusion that they are not all bad guys, doing dastardly deeds. FYI not every treed animal ends up dead, there is an element of catch and release to the sport.

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Originally Posted by gretch6364

Maybe you should come make me...ski off? Loser dies?


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maybe how we should've decided the ballot issue in CO...Ski off for reintroduction!

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Originally Posted by liv2ski

If I am the wolf, the last thing I want is some dumb ass human making decisions for me. Go shoot your own over populated areas up if you need to get your killing on you fucking fucktards.

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You're in CA , right? How is your ban on Lion hunting going? How many lions are killed by state paid "hunters" to even attempt at keeping numbers in check? CA (i grew up there) is the perfect example of how feelings can interfere with sound wildlife management and cause even more issues.

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Originally Posted by Hopeless Sinner

In Idaho dog hunters hunt lions and bears not wolves because hunting wolves w dogs is illegal in Idaho although some dogs are killed by wolves in encounters that are inevitable.

I met a dog hunter a few months ago and had several long talks with him regarding his dogs(Blue Ticks), and hunting lions and bears and came to the conclusion that they are not all bad guys, doing dastardly deeds. FYI not every treed animal ends up dead, there is an element of catch and release to the sport.

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So true! If you want to meet the most sound conservationists and wide viewpoint hunters, talk to a houndsman. IMO, they have more realistic data of the predator populations and overall makeup of any landscape. The real ones kill way less than they tree and study.

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Originally Posted by thebirdhunter

Maybe someone from Atlanta knows more about wolf hunting than I do but my understanding is hunting wolves with dogs is not a good method.

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/0...n-county-area/

Also where does someone from Atlanta go to see the all too common stereotypical wolf hunter?

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Social media mostly. There seems to be a “type” among those willing to share their kill online.

Anyway, it seems my original post got the heated response I expected. And a lot of overreacting not to dissimilar to mine. I’m not anti hunter or anti management by any means. I’ve killed my own deer and many many ducks. They’re all tasty.

Hunting apex predators for sport makes zero sense to me, and sure the state may need the help of hunters to manage the population because they can’t do it on their own, fine. Doesn’t mean I have to understand the appeal for someone who does.

Anyway, back to wolf stoke, sorry for the hunting sidebar. Unless y’all want to talk ranchers vs wolves too now? :fmicon:

Thanks for the good info posted in here, I appreciate the level headed posts.

I’m a hunter and I personally won’t shoot an animal with paws. As a huge dog lover I couldn’t fathom shooting a coyote or wolf. To each their own. At the same time I completely trust that the biological study is correct and that fish and game have a decent understanding of what needs to happen. Those numbers don’t warrant hysteria.
The level of stupidity to think that wolves are rad and they howl at moon and you “hope to see them while camping” and they’re your spirit animal blah blah blah. Wolves are fucking savage and they will eat your entrails and give zero fucks. Go try to pet one and please take video.


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Originally Posted by CovertM

You're in CA , right? How is your ban on Lion hunting going? How many lions are killed by state paid "hunters" to even attempt at keeping numbers in check? CA (i grew up there) is the perfect example of how feelings can interfere with sound wildlife management and cause even more issues.

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I have never heard of hunting Mtn Lions to keep their numbers in check. Sadly, there are times when they are perceived to represent a public danger and then they may be shot. I would be more in favor of trying to catch and relocate them, but nobody listens to me.

This status and other statutes prohibit the California Department of Fish and Wildlife from recommending a hunting season for lions, and it is illegal to take, injure, possess, transport, import, or sell any mountain lion or part of a mountain lion. Mountain lions may be killed only 1) if a depredation permit is issued to take a specific lion ...

So I am not following you, but it is early and I need coffee.

Living in one of the ground zeros for wolves, wolf reintroduction and wolf hysteria I share Yeahman's view.

I don't want the eradicated and I don't want them to run wild breeding. CWD is starting to be a real problem here and wolves manage that problem well.

Our Elk population is too large and a large part of the problem lies with a lack of hunting access. Too much land that is no longer available to hunt without paying.

As for the big Cats, they worry me much more than stumbling across a Grizzly.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

As for the big Cats, they worry me much more than stumbling across a Grizzly.

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This is an interesting perspective. Cat attacks are extremely rare. They do taste good though.

I just don’t understand the thought process of “the population needs to be controlled, but I don’t think we should allow hunting.”

Inevitably what ends up happening is a bunch of money is spent for professional hunters to be paid to come in and thin the population. Why not let people pay the state to do it for them and then use that money for conservation?



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Originally Posted by liv2ski

I have never heard of hunting Mtn Lions to keep their numbers in check. Sadly, there are times when they are perceived to represent a public danger and then they may be shot. I would be more in favor of trying to catch and relocate them, but nobody listens to me.

This status and other statutes prohibit the California Department of Fish and Wildlife from recommending a hunting season for lions, and it is illegal to take, injure, possess, transport, import, or sell any mountain lion or part of a mountain lion. Mountain lions may be killed only 1) if a depredation permit is issued to take a specific lion ...

So I am not following you, but it is early and I need coffee.

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CA used to have a hunting season on lions. It was legislated out of existence because people liked the kittys. The lion population is booming in many parts of CA and have adverse effects on wildlife populations and domestics. The state is now forced to pay people to trap and kill lions who are “problems”.

My point is that if they had just maintained a logical lion season and managed the population through willing and paying hunters, there would less of an issue. But feelings...


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Oh and the idea of introducing disease to animals to control their population is just disgusting. First, the animals would suffer which is not right...and then, didn’t we learn anything from this pandemic?


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Originally Posted by CovertM

CA used to have a hunting season on lions. It was legislated out of existence because people liked the kittys. The lion population is booming in many parts of CA and have adverse effects on wildlife populations and domestics. The state is now forced to pay people to trap and kill lions who are “problems”.

My point is that if they had just maintained a logical lion season and managed the population through willing and paying hunters, there would less of an issue. But feelings...


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I have never heard of a population issue with Mtn Lions in CA??? Sadly, people are fucking everywhere, so they will encounter animals in the wild at some point and while the occasional person gets fucked up, the cat gets killed. I understand everyone has their own opinion on how to manage wildlife. For me, I thought man should be a keeper or warden of nature. Give the animals the room they need, but with so many people wanting to do their own damn thing and live in the wilderness, the animals lose.
I am out.

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Originally Posted by gretch6364

Oh and the idea of introducing disease to animals to control their population is just disgusting. First, the animals would suffer which is not right...and then, didn’t we learn anything from this pandemic?


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What in the fuck are you talking about? No, never mind.

Chronic Wasting Disease has been a thing for quite a while.

I have been stalked by a big Cat and a buddy went toe to toe with one. Rare is in the eye of the beholder.

Bmills stirrin the pot! you go get-em! Personally I found the lead article fascinating.

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Originally Posted by char_

Really? You don’t think wolf populations could naturally reach some sort of balance with the existing ecosystem (including the human built environment) unless we kill them?

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Some sort of happy Walt Disney predator/prey population stasis, with singing flowers? How naive.

Nature is not a steady state system. It's constant cycles of boom/bust, because the variables which define the behavior of 'the natural world' are constantly changing over time.
Like a laissez faire economy, one day you're up, the next you're down... It's not a point, it's a sine wave.

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FWIW - I think managed hunts are fine, I’m just not buying your black or white argument about how to manage them.

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Please suggest an alternative, and how to pay for it. TIA

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

I have been stalked by a big Cat and a buddy went toe to toe with one. Rare is in the eye of the beholder.

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In the course of a year I see about as many wolves as grizzlies or cougars which is the spicy part of living near YNP. Lots more tracks than sightings, but nothing like a pack of gray wolves showing up to changes the dynamics of the elk migration.

The wolf discussion brings out lots of passion. I hope the local wolf packs are able to keep CWD down in this part of MT. A happy Disney stasis of predators and prey with singing flowers, cheerful birds twittering and fluffy puppies playing would be awesome. The reality is the local ecosystem has more and more human driven impacts with the local mega fauna hanging in the balance as the rate of change is accelerating.

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Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

What in the fuck are you talking about? No, never mind.

Chronic Wasting Disease has been a thing for quite a while.

I have been stalked by a big Cat and a buddy went toe to toe with one. Rare is in the eye of the beholder.

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Read the thread. One of the anti hunters claimed there are many other ways to control the wolf population using science instead of hunting...they floated the idea of introducing disease to the wolves.


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Originally Posted by gretch6364

Read the thread. One of the anti hunters claimed there are many other ways to control the wolf population using science instead of hunting...they floated the idea of introducing disease to the wolves.


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How about if I just take you at your word?

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Originally Posted by BmillsSkier

Yeah it’s pretty wild. I’ve always wanted to go camping/backpacking there

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If you travel up here, drop by on the way through!

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Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

If you travel up here, drop by on the way through!

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I’ll definitely take you up on that offer.

Been too long since I’ve made my way to that part of the world.