Insomnia

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Originally Posted by Phill

God what a bunch of pot heads on here. Weed never made me that sleepy, infact it always made me anxious.

The Ambien when it was working was the best thing to happen to me. Took it and rolled off to sleep, maybe with a cool hallucination or two.

The Atvian makes my body feel healthy but my mind is still going 1000mph

Ive had good experiences in the past with Xanax for sleeping on planes. 2mg on the Tarmac and I wake up in the immigration queue. The length of the effect and the zombie like state it leaves me in is the reason I've been wary to try it for daily use.

With much sadness I've stopped drinking coffee at night. Eating early seems to help some.

I need to start exercising more. But I found that night time exercise made my insomnia worse.

Same with sex. In fact on the rare occasion that I'm actually sleeping medicated or and my partner wakes me up I know I won't get to sleep that night.

Alcohol en utter excess seems to work but doesn't seem helpful and is never worth the hang over

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I'm not a physician, but it seems like "ambien/ativan doesn't work anymore" is possibly just covering up other issues causing your sleep problem. I mean, no shit that night time exercise and coffee are going to keep you awake. I use exercise as a tool to wake up and get my brain going in the morning, not as a sleep aid.

Go see a pro, sanitize your sleep environment, etc.

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Originally Posted by flowing alpy

i hope you have easy access to quality medicine in the strain you prefer. you deserve some good rest.

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Yes I have way easy access to my medicine!

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Originally Posted by Skidog

Sorry I just don't see it this way. To some degree yes they do their best to stay current, but it seems nearly impossible. I dont think MDs are trying to be evil, but I think they still lean towards writing a script and its likely the one that gets them some benefit.
In my eyes big pharma is too powerful.

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Of course you don't see that way, because you have no idea what you are taking about and base it on poor info you gleaned for places like this or one or two bad experiences with an MD. I agree, MDs are often too quick to Rx pills, but it is usually not entirely their fault but the foult of the system that allows them just a few minutes per patient. It would be wonderful for a GP to beable to sit down and talk with a patient for an hour and find out all the issues in their life that is affectiing their sleep.

MDs get little or any benefit form Rx'ing meds. The days of kick backs or getting wined and dined are pretty munch gone, and never really existed to the extent people thought. The only benefit they get is they get through more patients in a day which corporate practices are requiring by not spending the quality time good medicine dictates. It is the business model that MDs are forced into by a lot of factors that causes the Dr patient disconnect.

Get into a daily routine and follow it with military like discipline, seven days a week. Wake up at 5:30am, go for a run or hit the gym and lift weights. Have breakfast. Go to work. Cut off all caffeine drinks. Limit sugar. Don't eat any sugary food after 4pm. Dinner should be a small salad or a soup at 6:30 pm. Don't go to bed before 10:30pm. Don't spend your evening sitting on the couch. Go tune your skis or do some gardening or go for a walk. No electronics in the bedroom. Take a few drops of valerian or white chestnut extract before bed if needed.

Dr. Kirk Parsley, M.D. does good stuff on sleep. Check out his website and new product. Lots of free podcasts with him online where he gives free suggestions on getting to sleep and getting good sleep.

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Originally Posted by polenta

Dinner should be a small salad or a soup at 6:30 pm.

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Lettuce is soporific!

Soporific Salads and Lettuce Opium

See a doctor and get a blood test. I went a couple months getting only 1-2 hours of sleep. a night. Norco, valium, Ambien, melatonin, none of it worked at all. Still don't know how I was able to function, although I was suffering. Turns out I was severely anemic (I would have thought that would make someone sleepy, but no) due to a GI issue. Within a few days of taking iron supplements I was sleeping like a baby, Not saying that's your problem, but the insomnia is quite likely a symptom and not the problem itself.

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Originally Posted by hutash

Of course you don't see that way, because you have no idea what you are taking about and base it on poor info you gleaned for places like this or one or two bad experiences with an MD. I agree, MDs are often too quick to Rx pills, but it is usually not entirely their fault but the foult of the system that allows them just a few minutes per patient. It would be wonderful for a GP to beable to sit down and talk with a patient for an hour and find out all the issues in their life that is affectiing their sleep.

MDs get little or any benefit form Rx'ing meds. The days of kick backs or getting wined and dined are pretty munch gone, and never really existed to the extent people thought. The only benefit they get is they get through more patients in a day which corporate practices are requiring by not spending the quality time good medicine dictates. It is the business model that MDs are forced into by a lot of factors that causes the Dr patient disconnect.

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Thanks doc. Glad you know me and where I get my info so well. Its all just another factor of a move faster, fix it now, I can't wait attitude that exists today.

I'm a firm believer in placebo. I believe the power of the mind is much stronger than we give it credit for. There is plenty of data to backup placebo working as well or better than the actual drug. Now obviously you can't "mind over matter" cancer, but many other common ailments that MDs will just write a quick script for can be overcome without any med.

To be clear I don't blame MDs for this at all, goes right back to big pharma for me. Docs are just doing what the patient now expects. Bring back doc baker from little house on the praire. House calls bitch.

Phill, you're heading for trouble down the road if you continue on the need for ever escalating doses of benzos to get you to sleep. Also, I wonder how much of your sleep issues are made worse by concerta during the day. You take it once or twice a day? The stimulant & sedative combo can destroy natural sleep cycles. Your doc should be asking you questions about what your sleep is now--can't fall asleep? Why? Can't stay asleep? Wake up early? What do you do/think about while you lay there awake?

Hutash is right, you should see a sleep doc. To do that though they will want you off sedatives and concerta for a week. Also consider CBT for sleep and reading up on "sleep hygiene" and make sure you're doing everything you should be.

For sleep aids, melatonin is the first stop, and it's most effective at 10-15mg a night. I rarely prescribe benzos like Ativan for sleep, and if I do it's because if the pt doesn't get sleep then something worse happens.

I hate Seroquel for sleep. Yes it's an antipsychotic, and most all antipsychotics are sedating. But it really only has it's antipsychotic effect at high doses. People take it for sleep at around 50mg and a that dose you only fill histamine receptors with the drug...so you are taking fancy hydroxyzine that will cause you to gain 50 pounds and develop diabetes.

If melatonin, hydroxyzine doesn't work then I start down the path of things like baby doses of remeron, Trazodone, old TCA antidepressants at low dose. But honestly, for those willing to do some work, CBT for insomnia has the greatest effect(as long as you don't have an underlying sleep disorder).

The final though is, you have dealt with this since high school. Chances are you are going to deal with it for a long time before it gets figured out, if ever. So any doc telling you something will definitely work is being a bit too rosey.

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Originally Posted by liv2ski

All I know is I wake up a lot around 2-3 am and can not fall back to sleep. Eating a THC muffin helps but I do wake up pretty groggy. Maybe I will just take a few hits off my wife's vape an hour before bed and see how that works for me.

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Yesterday was a very stressful day and being on the booze wagon isn't helping my mood. So I had a hit of the wife's Blue Mystic after dinner. All I know is smoking weed makes me want to go to sleep. The actual buzz / high just makes my body say "Nighty night". So to be sure, I ate half a muffin too at 8pm and hit the sack. My wife said I barely moved last night (I was out) and I woke up a little fuzzy, but nothing 2 cups of coffee and a walk didn't sort out. So if you have troubles sleeping, find the right herb to knock yourself out, if your body reacts that way.

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Originally Posted by liv2ski

Yesterday was a very stressful day and being on the booze wagon isn't helping my mood. So I had a hit of the wife's Blue Mystic after dinner. All I know is smoking weed makes me want to go to sleep. The actual buzz / high just makes my body say "Nighty night". So to be sure, I ate half a muffin too at 8pm and hit the sack. My wife said I barely moved last night (I was out) and I woke up a little fuzzy, but nothing 2 cups of coffee and a walk didn't sort out. So if you have troubles sleeping, find the right herb to knock yourself out, if your body reacts that way.

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Nice. I hit the Presidential OG Kush vape a few times before bed and it was my alarm that actually woke me up. No grogg.

Edibles last too long for me, I would probably still be high in the morning.

People who take ambian and it doesn't work - do you hallucinate / get high when you don't fall asleep or is there no effect? I've never taken Ambien but I thought if you don't fall asleep there are pretty strong effects.

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Originally Posted by neufox47

People who take ambian and it doesn't work - do you hallucinate / get high when you don't fall asleep or is there no effect? I've never taken Ambien but I thought if you don't fall asleep there are pretty strong effects.

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You only hallucinate on the edge of sleep. It's like you are dreaming but awake. Ever take a nap in the afternoon where you are watching tv and then the tv is part of your dream? It's like that only much more accute. If you are consciously awake the affect of ambien is a lot like benedryl. Just kind of a dull wish you could sleep feeling.

Anyone taking amby to get high is really f'd up because it's a crappy high.

And, it is not addicitve, not at all imo. I WISH I didn't have to take it and wouldn't miss it for a second.

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Originally Posted by 4matic

If you are consciously awake the affect of ambien is a lot like benedryl. Just kind of a dull wish you could sleep feeling.

Anyone taking amby to get high is really f'd up because it's a crappy high.

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This

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Originally Posted by 4matic

And, it is not addicitve, not at all imo.

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This too, except on TGR, where defining a word is a wholly subjective personal matter, and where an attempt to call out imprecise speech invites personal attacks.

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Originally Posted by 4matic

I WISH I didn't have to take it and wouldn't miss it for a second.

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Me too, but OTOH, since my brain surgery 2-1/2 years ago, occasional use has helped me get back on track when my circadian rhythm gets off whack. It really doesn't take much. When I use it I take c. 2.5mg (bite off 1/4 of a 10mg pill) and place it under my tongue. My MD bud says that initial recommended dosage was too high and has been reduced. From the onset of my occasional use, he suggested biting off a wee bit as a means to determine minimum effective dosage.

I'm addicted to hairsplitting.

Take whatever that stuff was that Michael Jackson was taking.

I've had moderate insomnia from time to time over the years. As luck would have it, one of my close friends is a medical board certified sleep specialist. His advice to me has always been something along the lines of "Unless you have a sleep study done, I'd just be guessing. That said, your sleep hygiene is a disgrace. Clean it up." So a good place to start is by cleaning up your sleep hygiene with the things recommended above (cut caffeine, eat lighter dinners, quiet and dark bedroom, (and that means totally dark, not even glowing lights from alarm clocks, set top boxes, cell phones, etc.), exercise, breathing exercises, yoga, meditation, regular and sleep routine and schedule, etc.

But since all of that likely requires enough of a lifestyle change to be a pain in the ass, if you're like most of America you're thinking: "Can't I just take a pill for that?" Personally, I try to avoid pharmaceuticals. The couple of times I tried a 1/2 an Ambien, it wiped me out for the next day. No beuno. Luckily, I have had great results from Melatonin. Since it isn't a drug, it isn't really regulated, so buyer beware. I would stick to as reputable a manufacturer as you can. It's a naturally occurring hormone, so at least it's not foreign to your body. The studies that have been done show good results and safety, but there is definitely a lack of long term study on regular use. Most recommend using it to regulate sleep for a period of time (30-90 days ish) and then getting off for a while. Dosage is also all over the charts (mostly due to lack of study). I would start with 1 mg and then increase to 3m or 5mg as needed. One thing I would recommend is finding some that is a combo of fast acting (to get to sleep) and slow release (to maintain deep sleep overnight). I say this because when taking only the fast acting, I've found that if I wake up in the middle of the night for some reason, it can be harder for me to get back to sleep. Take it 15-30 minutes before bed and then do something relaxing before getting into bed. Someone above mentioned having gruesome nightmares. Not sure what this is from. Might say something about the demons that lurk in his particular subconscious :) I do have much more vivid dreams, but they are not frightening. Sometimes they are pretty wild or trippy, but I don't remember any being frightening. In addition to helping me get to sleep quickly and staying asleep, I found that my sleep is qualitatively much deeper and more restful. I sometimes wake up in the morning and it feels like I fell asleep 2 seconds ago. I start my day refreshed, not sluggish like with the pharms.

My sleep specialist MD friend runs a sleep lab in Denver so if you are in or near CO, I can put you in touch with him if you want to try to take care of the problem once and for all. Good luck. Insomnia sux. /blog

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Originally Posted by VTChrome

The couple of times I tried a 1/2 an Ambien, it wiped me out for the next day.

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Odd. Ambien has an average half-life of 2.6 hours, good at helping one get to sleep, but not so good at keeping one asleep for longer than 5-6 hours. (My MD buds' view is that time-released Ambien was just a ploy to get patent protection after the patent expired on the original). I agree re cleaning up environment to enhance sleep opportunities. FWIW, some experts suggest that 7-8 hours sleep per night thing to fit a typical modern schedule is an unnatural construct.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

I'm addicted to hairsplitting.

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That's funny

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Originally Posted by Big Steve

Odd. Ambien has an average half-life of 2.6 hours, good at helping one get to sleep, but not so good at keeping one asleep for longer than 5-6 hours. (My MD buds' view is that time-released Ambien was just a ploy to get patent protection after the patent expired on the original). I agree re cleaning up environment to enhance sleep opportunities. FWIW, some experts suggest that 7-8 hours sleep per night thing to fit a typical modern schedule is an unnatural construct.

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Good to know as I need something that keeps me asleep. I fall asleep easily. Problem is, I wake up after 4-5 hours and then I am awake for a few hours. I have to get up early, so that middle of the night awake shit is for the birds as I need at least 8 hours of sleep. I am wack on 5-6 hours.

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Originally Posted by Skidog

Most MDs just spout back what the insert says. Big pharma is a fucking scam and america is in full bore. Prescription pill abuse is rampant in the states and most times leads down a much darker path. Wealthy to poor doesn't matter. Big pharma wants you to take pills

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Originally Posted by Skidog

Sorry I just don't see it this way. To some degree yes they do their best to stay current, but it seems nearly impossible. I dont think MDs are trying to be evil, but I think they still lean towards writing a script and its likely the one that gets them some benefit.
In my eyes big pharma is too powerful.

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Originally Posted by Skidog

I'm a firm believer in placebo. I believe the power of the mind is much stronger than we give it credit for. There is plenty of data to backup placebo working as well or better than the actual drug. Now obviously you can't "mind over matter" cancer, but many other common ailments that MDs will just write a quick script for can be overcome without any med.

To be clear I don't blame MDs for this at all, goes right back to big pharma for me. Docs are just doing what the patient now expects. Bring back doc baker from little house on the praire. House calls bitch.

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Originally Posted by CantDog

Phill, you're heading for trouble down the road if you continue on the need for ever escalating doses of benzos to get you to sleep. Also, I wonder how much of your sleep issues are made worse by concerta during the day. You take it once or twice a day? The stimulant & sedative combo can destroy natural sleep cycles. Your doc should be asking you questions about what your sleep is now--can't fall asleep? Why? Can't stay asleep? Wake up early? What do you do/think about while you lay there awake?

Hutash is right, you should see a sleep doc. To do that though they will want you off sedatives and concerta for a week. Also consider CBT for sleep and reading up on "sleep hygiene" and make sure you're doing everything you should be.

For sleep aids, melatonin is the first stop, and it's most effective at 10-15mg a night. I rarely prescribe benzos like Ativan for sleep, and if I do it's because if the pt doesn't get sleep then something worse happens.

I hate Seroquel for sleep. Yes it's an antipsychotic, and most all antipsychotics are sedating. But it really only has it's antipsychotic effect at high doses. People take it for sleep at around 50mg and a that dose you only fill histamine receptors with the drug...so you are taking fancy hydroxyzine that will cause you to gain 50 pounds and develop diabetes.

If melatonin, hydroxyzine doesn't work then I start down the path of things like baby doses of remeron, Trazodone, old TCA antidepressants at low dose. But honestly, for those willing to do some work, CBT for insomnia has the greatest effect(as long as you don't have an underlying sleep disorder).

The final though is, you have dealt with this since high school. Chances are you are going to deal with it for a long time before it gets figured out, if ever. So any doc telling you something will definitely work is being a bit too rosey.

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See, you are just spouting back what the drug insert says, and your education and experience is immaterial. You are just a tool of big pharmacy and you should just be prescribing placebos. Who would doubt the widow of a random person on a ski forum?

No go back to the good ol' days when children died of easily preventable diseases and big pharma was Dr Baker's fix all elixir, proof the plecebo is the best pill there is.

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Originally Posted by liv2ski

Good to know as I need something that keeps me asleep. I fall asleep easily. Problem is, I wake up after 4-5 hours and then I am awake for a few hours. I have to get up early, so that middle of the night awake shit is for the birds as I need at least 8 hours of sleep. I am wack on 5-6 hours.

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I find it best to get up, have a piece of fruit, or something healthy, maybe read (I used to read medical joirnals, but I just recently learned is is impossible to stay medically current, so fuck that.) I don't know about Ambien, but if you fall asleep easily, taking something like Lunesta when you wake will help you with the 5-6 additional hours you desire.

Alcohol screws up my sleep.

Of course, if all else fails, I can sell you a vial of placebos, that shits the Bomb for sleep.

Didn't studies show that even if you tell someone you are giving them a placebo ... it still works?

Ambien must affect people differently. I took a pill once (can't remember the dose) and couldn't wake up the next day till mid afternoon (woke up earlier and absolutely couldn't keep my eyes open and had to go back to bed). So that was a good 14 hours sleep. After that I only took it a few times and took half a pill and made sure another adult was around to care for the kids, because once asleep I could not be woken until I naturally woke on my own. (or weird shit would happen). Definitely made me sleep longer than 5-6 hours.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

Didn't studies show that even if you tell someone you are giving them a placebo ... it still works?

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It's strong shit and will cure what every ails you. Big pharma suppresses the results because they don't have the patent. I know for a fact the government puts placebo in Chem trails so everybody will asleep when the Muslim king takes control. Coincidence that most people sleep at night? I think not, "they" are just controlling us.